• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Joined
3 Mar 2020
Messages
677
Location
Furness
I always thought that, after all the trains are a technology demonstrator (waits for barrage of quips about demonstrating faults etc.) information gained from running will guide the railway when it has to break the current mad rush to buy cheap 'polluting only' DMUs from CAF.
Also, wiring Wigan to Southport would probably not be cheaper than the difference between DMU and EMU track access costs in the lifetime of the Northern franchise.
As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, the wiring isn't going to get to Wigan Wallgate without an expensive solution for the tunnel under the main road. I guess that sort of level of disruption for a rebuild would take years of planning.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,064
Location
St Albans
As has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum, the wiring isn't going to get to Wigan Wallgate without an expensive solution for the tunnel under the main road. I guess that sort of level of disruption for a rebuild would take years of planning.
It wasn't me that suggested Wigan to Southport, try getting a response from @Grumpy Git . Maybe he doesn't know that Wallgate can't (easily) be wired, - but does seem to know what the cost is!
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
I'm one of the 769's biggest critics, but I take no pleasure whatsoever in their unreliability. I'm simply putting myself in the shoes of anyone who relies on them to commute.

There must come a point where the customer says to the vendor enough is enough?
For all we outsiders know, it might be that the cause(s) of the 769 failures are understood, and can be fixed by straightforward mechanical/electrical/software modifications that are under development and will be rolled out across the fleet in the next few weeks or months. In which case it would be foolish to scrap the units now, when it will be several years before replacement self-powered rolling stock can be sourced.

On the other hand it might be that there are more fundamental/deep seated/complex engineering issues with the new traction kit, with little confidence that reliability can be improved quickly or at reasonable cost. If so, it might be operationally preferable to stop "flogging a dead horse" and take the medium term hit on fleet capacity in the interests of averting on-going disruption to services.

The commercial arrangements between Porterbrook and Northern/DfT are not in the public domain. Quite possibly unilateral early termination of the contract would incur substantial financial penalties, thereby letting Porterbrook off the hook.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,064
Location
St Albans
For all we outsiders know, it might be that the cause(s) of the 769 failures are understood, and can be fixed by straightforward mechanical/electrical/software modifications that are under development and will be rolled out across the fleet in the next few weeks or months. In which case it would be foolish to scrap the units now, when it will be several years before replacement self-powered rolling stock can be sourced.

On the other hand it might be that there are more fundamental/deep seated/complex engineering issues with the new traction kit, with little confidence that reliability can be improved quickly or at reasonable cost. If so, it might be operationally preferable to stop "flogging a dead horse" and take the medium term hit on fleet capacity in the interests of averting on-going disruption to services.

The commercial arrangements between Porterbrook and Northern/DfT are not in the public domain. Quite possibly unilateral early termination of the contract would incur substantial financial penalties, thereby letting Porterbrook off the hook.
... and I suspect that the funders of Northern's financial shortfalls (DfT) would be happy with letting it run.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,718
Location
N Yorks
We need to know more about the failures. Do they work OK on a total electric diagram? do they break changing over from electric to diesel? Until we know where the faults are we cant say if they are fixable.
We dont even know if there is a shedload of different faults, or its the same bit that breaks causing all the failures.
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,959
Try also looking at the state of the traction training and the competence of some of those who drive them, as well as the unit characteristics...
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,064
Location
St Albans
Try also looking at the state of the traction training and the competence of some of those who drive them, as well as the unit characteristics...
... and diagnose faults/maintain them. The whole human interface with trains and their infrastructure in general seems to have evolved from when driving a steam trains was sometimes so critical that only a few drivers could master the 'art'. The other extreme is with much automation and monitoring that that system itself struggles to even get to full introduction, (e.g. Crossrail).
 

37201xoIM

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2016
Messages
372
Also, wiring Wigan to Southport would probably not be cheaper than the difference between DMU and EMU track access costs in the lifetime of the Northern franchise.
Will confess to being somewhat amused by this argument! Guessing that the reference to TACs (alone) was perhaps unintentional, but it's the other half that is, ahem, shall we say, a little "intellectually naughty"! Even in the era of franchises, an OLE scheme would never have been appraised over the lifetime of the one franchise in place at the time - and it most certainly isn't now. [Indeed in a conversation with a TOC's planning people on Monday, they made the point that even in their service planning, they are now changing their thinking towards WebTAG-style 60-year economic appraisals rather than 5-7-year franchise-led financial / commercial appraisals - which was of course music to my ears, even at a time of obvious immediate financial pressures on the railway.]

From a whole-industry point of view, it is highly likely that Grumpy Git is right (notwithstanding the Wallgate challenges) - but to be fair, the original intention of 769s was more generally as a stopgap step to electrification anyway, as well as a "proof of concept" (or, ahem, otherwise!).
 

js1000

Member
Joined
14 Jun 2014
Messages
1,023
For all we outsiders know, it might be that the cause(s) of the 769 failures are understood, and can be fixed by straightforward mechanical/electrical/software modifications that are under development and will be rolled out across the fleet in the next few weeks or months. In which case it would be foolish to scrap the units now, when it will be several years before replacement self-powered rolling stock can be sourced.

On the other hand it might be that there are more fundamental/deep seated/complex engineering issues with the new traction kit, with little confidence that reliability can be improved quickly or at reasonable cost. If so, it might be operationally preferable to stop "flogging a dead horse" and take the medium term hit on fleet capacity in the interests of averting on-going disruption to services.

The commercial arrangements between Porterbrook and Northern/DfT are not in the public domain. Quite possibly unilateral early termination of the contract would incur substantial financial penalties, thereby letting Porterbrook off the hook.
Although very rarely triggered, it is impossible that the franchise would not have a termination clause for faulty train units that do not deliver the expected performance. As with anything, the debate would be at threshold in terms of cancellations or unavailability that constitutes "faulty" and "not as described"?

Personally, the reliability of the 769s since introduction in May has been totally unacceptable. I concede I was not a fan of the 769s - for the main reasons you describe. Getting a tune out of outdated 1980s equipment to work with modern traction/engine equipment seemed like a recipe for disaster. It seemed too good to be true.

The incentive for Northern to keep these 8 units will also wane enormously when the 319s are replaced by 323s next year. The DfT have said they are trying to move Northern away from operating costly micro-fleets in terms of staff training and maintenance.
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
28,761
Location
Nottingham
Although very rarely triggered, it is impossible that the franchise would not have a termination clause for faulty train units that do not deliver the expected performance. As with anything, the debate would be at threshold in terms of cancellations or unavailability that constitutes "faulty" and "not as described"?

Personally, the reliability of the 769s since introduction in May has been totally unacceptable. I concede I was not a fan of the 769s - for the main reasons you describe. Getting a tune out of outdated 1980s equipment to work with modern traction/engine equipment seemed like a recipe for disaster. It seemed too good to be true.

The incentive for Northern to keep these 8 units will also wane enormously when the 319s are replaced by 323s next year. The DfT have said they are trying to move Northern away from operating costly micro-fleets in terms of staff training and maintenance.
Northern already went over to the Operator of Last Resort, so the question of terminating the franchise is irrelevant.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
Northern already went over to the Operator of Last Resort, so the question of terminating the franchise is irrelevant.
I believe @js1000 was referring to potential termination of the contract between the Northern franchise and Porterbrook for conversion of the eight 319s to 769s, not termination of the franchise itself. Although Porterbrook's 769 contract was originally with Arriva Rail North, it will have been inherited by Northern Trains Ltd, the current operator, which is a subsidiary of DfT OLR Holdings Ltd.
 

Techniquest

Veteran Member
Joined
19 Jun 2005
Messages
21,845
Location
Nowhere Heath
Anyone know what happened to 769442 yesterday (29/09/2021)?

I saw after getting to Stockport for it that it had been cancelled at Wigan on its way from Southport to Alderley Edge. It seems likely it was a technical issue, as it didn't reappear later on so not a route/service issue.

I managed a ride with 769450 which was in excellent health it would appear, saw it multiple times during the day. 769434, I did a properly decent length run with that from Gathurst to Manchester Piccadilly. I've now had a Northern 769 on diesel, and where I was sat in the motor coach I didn't really notice a difference in sound between the diesel engine and the electric motors. There was a lot of noise, and it was rather windy so that sound could have muffled the engine sound on its way through the hopper window.

It did sound a bit rough in places between Gathurst and Bolton, as if there was some sort of grinding? I'm not sure how I would describe it really. I didn't hear it again later on, so who knows? 434 still put in a good performance, so it can't have been much of an issue and I could well have just been hearing other sounds from outside being thrust into the train by the wind!

3 more 769s to go with Northern, one day I might actually get them in the book!

769458 was in the bay platform at Wigan when I headed back to Manchester, it appeared to be on the 1554 to Southport. Screens suggested it would be two coaches, so that was a bit of a surprise.
 

Greybeard33

Established Member
Joined
18 Feb 2012
Messages
4,335
Location
Greater Manchester
Anyone know what happened to 769442 yesterday (29/09/2021)?

I saw after getting to Stockport for it that it had been cancelled at Wigan on its way from Southport to Alderley Edge. It seems likely it was a technical issue, as it didn't reappear later on so not a route/service issue.
RTT indicates that 769442 was terminated short at Wallgate at 0752 on 29 September, while working the 0716 Southport to Alderley Edge. 150145 picked up the working from Piccadilly at 0839, and continued to work subsequent services in the diagram.

The cancellation was "due to a problem with the traction equipment (MD)". 769442 had departed Southport 4L and arrived at Wallgate 5L. It subsequently ran ECS to Springs Branch.
769458 was in the bay platform at Wigan when I headed back to Manchester, it appeared to be on the 1554 to Southport. Screens suggested it would be two coaches, so that was a bit of a surprise.
RTT does not show any workings by 769458 on that day. However, although 150145 is shown as working the 1450 Alderley to Southport (1554 from Wallgate) it seems likely that 769458 in fact took over the working from Wigan and worked the remainder of the diagram, but that the unit ID was not updated for the subsequent services. The diagram ended the day in Manchester Victoria Reversing Siding, and 769458 emerged from the siding on 30th September to work the 0637 Victoria to Southport.
 

Big George

Member
Joined
19 Dec 2020
Messages
18
Location
Pontypandy
Try also looking at the state of the traction training and the competence of some of those who drive them, as well as the unit characteristics...
What's the issues in this area? Are you traction trained, or have any knowledge of driver responsibilities on the class?
 

Wyrleybart

Established Member
Joined
29 Mar 2020
Messages
2,637
Location
South Staffordshire
Anyone know what happened to 769442 yesterday (29/09/2021)?

I saw after getting to Stockport for it that it had been cancelled at Wigan on its way from Southport to Alderley Edge. It seems likely it was a technical issue, as it didn't reappear later on so not a route/service issue.
Appears to have worked 2K82 0716 SOP- departing late due to late inwards 2F82. Required Fitters at Walgate and was cancelled
 

Llama

Established Member
Joined
29 Apr 2014
Messages
1,959
In what way 'ill'? Probably perfectly normal if it's just the noise of traction motors slipping under low adhesion.
 

D9006

Member
Joined
28 Aug 2019
Messages
238
Location
Wigan
424, 431, 434 out today, they was not seen last week, 450, 456 and 458 were out last week, not seen this week, are they undergoing modifications
 

LOL The Irony

Established Member
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
Every morning I see the unit that has come off 06:17 from Southport, it's more often than not a 2 car Sprinter. I wonder when Northern will just bite the bullet and get rid?
 

_toommm_

Established Member
Joined
8 Jul 2017
Messages
6,308
Location
South West London
Does anyone know if the 07:20 Victoria to Southport is meant to be a 769 please? I’ve noted every day for the past week it’s been a 150, but I’m not sure if they’ve just been unlucky.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
16,064
Location
St Albans
Does anyone know if the 07:20 Victoria to Southport is meant to be a 769 please? I’ve noted every day for the past week it’s been a 150, but I’m not sure if they’ve just been unlucky.
The 2W00 07:20 is formed from the ECS 5W00 which arrives from Newton Heath at 07:15. Does NH handle 769s?
 

Top