What's happened to the cheap advances?

[JonathanH]

There are also people to be found (both in and out of the industry) who believe that having different fares for the same journey (based on when you book and/or when you travel) is manifestly unfair.

Yes, although at least some of those naively think that the cheapest tier of fares could apply at all times and it the more expensive ones that should be withdrawn. Alternatively they are people paying the more expensive fares already who see that, perhaps fairly, as a means to a reduction in their fare.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Just in case anyone is interested https://lnerjobs.co.uk/jobs/vacancy/pricing-manager-0954-east-coast-house-york/972/description/

 

[317 forever]

I wonder whether the Railway is trying to recoup some of their losses while demand is below its peak and was a long way down during lockdowns.

 

[Wolfie]

I wonder whether the Railway is trying to recoup some of their losses while demand is below its peak and was a long way down during lockdowns.

Many other industries seem to be so it wouldn't be a surprise.

 

[kieron]

Yes I did try this but couldn't get any way for other sites (I tried LNER and London North Western) to show me the ticket. And I'm a relative railway spod, so how on earth is joe public going to find it?

The LNR booking engine seems to be pretty much the same as the TfW one but with different colours. Were you using a small window (such as on a mobile phone) to look at the site? I notice that the "mobile" version of the search engine misses a few things out.

If not, searching for a Manchester-London return journey and scrolling to the bottom of the results should give you something which looks a lot like the picture below. If you did that, and clicked where it says "Click here", it should take you to a list of every Manchester-London return ticket, as happens with TfW. I'm not saying this is good or bad design, but it's there.

I do think LNR missed a trick by having a "show only our trains" option on the search screen rather than one which included other operators outside their area.

 

[andylikestrain]

I’m wondering the same re TOCs trying to recoup lost income. GWR std adv single from Paddington to Bristol is now from £20.60. It was 17ish before Covid and I think 15 not long before that.I understand that adv fares are unregulated ref increases, but this still seems a lot to me. Any thoughts?

 

[yorksrob]

There are also people to be found (both in and out of the industry) who believe that having different fares for the same journey (based on when you book and/or when you travel) is manifestly unfair.

Although having universally extortionate fares would be even more unfair.

 

[Wolfie]

The LNR booking engine seems to be pretty much the same as the TfW one but with different colours. Were you using a small window (such as on a mobile phone) to look at the site? I notice that the "mobile" version of the search engine misses a few things out.

If not, searching for a Manchester-London return journey and scrolling to the bottom of the results should give you something which looks a lot like the picture below. If you did that, and clicked where it says "Click here", it should take you to a list of every Manchester-London return ticket, as happens with TfW. I'm not saying this is good or bad design, but it's there.

I do think LNR missed a trick by having a "show only our trains" option on the search screen rather than one which included other operators outside their area.

The reason that LNWR have a "our trains only" option is that without it the default is the fastest trains and their services often don't appear at all. Try London to Birmingham for example.

 

[Horizon22]

Leisure traffic, particularly on mainlines like the WCML and ECML, has picked up massively. In certain areas there is now more demand than before Covid!

So it's no surprise that the cheapest Advances either aren't being released, or are limited in number and therefore snapped up long before the date of travel.

Likewise on GWML. 9 and 10 car trains full & standing on weekends. I imagine those cheaper advances went months back. Even if advance minimums have been edging up it's obviously not putting people off either, judging by loadings.

 

[JonathanH]

Likewise on GWML. 9 and 10 car trains full & standing on weekends. I imagine those cheaper advances went months back. Even if advance minimums have been edging up it's obviously not putting people off either, judging by loadings.

At popular times yes but I think what is also happening is that the advance fares at less popular times are also being increased.

 

[andylikestrain]

At popular times yes but I think what is also happening is that the advance fares at less popular times are also being increased.

Think so too. London to Bristol from £20ish, London to Plymouth from £34ish. These are the cheapest adv single fares when dates are released. Gone up A LOT.

 

[Starmill]

I’m wondering the same re TOCs trying to recoup lost income. GWR std adv single from Paddington to Bristol is now from £20.60. It was 17ish before Covid and I think 15 not long before that.I understand that adv fares are unregulated ref increases, but this still seems a lot to me. Any thoughts?

If you don't want to pay £20.60 each way or more, I think that GWR would rather you just didn't travel with them.

Similarly to how if you want a pint of beer out, but won't pay more than £1.99 for it, overwhelmingly most pubs and bars now would probably be happier without you there.

 

[nanstallon]

If you don't want to pay £20.60 each way or more, I think that GWR would rather you just didn't travel with them.

Similarly to how if you want a pint of beer out, but won't pay more than £1.99 for it, overwhelmingly most pubs and bars now would probably be happier without you there.

So British - this is our price, and we'd rather be running half empty trains than cut our price. Got to keep the price level up!

 

[Starmill]

So British - this is our price, and we'd rather be running half empty trains than cut our price. Got to keep the price level up!

In the same way that a city centre pub has about three people in it on a Tuesday night whereas before the pandemic it would have been many times as busy as that, but they don't do any midweek offers on the drinks. I think that there are a lot of businesses now that see it as just not worth the hassle.

 

[Haywain]

So British - this is our price, and we'd rather be running half empty trains than cut our price. Got to keep the price level up!

Well, if halving the price was going to more than double the number of people buying you might have a point.

 

[JonathanH]

So British - this is our price, and we'd rather be running half empty trains than cut our price. Got to keep the price level up!

Not quite like that though is it - the demand might not actually be there no matter how much the price is cut so it is set at a level that overall the pricing people think the product is worth.

 

[nanstallon]

Not quite like that though is it - the demand might not actually be there no matter how much the price is cut so it is set at a level that overall the pricing people think the product is worth.

Pricing people don't always know what the product is worth - usually it is not worth as much as they think!

 

[JonathanH]

Pricing people don't always know what the product is worth - usually it is not worth as much as they think!

That goes two ways - the travelling public might think that the fare isn't priced as low as its economic worth.

The sweet spot is the price that maximises the revenue, not the price that carries the most people.

 

[AlterEgo]

So British - this is our price, and we'd rather be running half empty trains than cut our price. Got to keep the price level up!

You can't cannibalise your product, though.

One of the big issues with the fares system is while there are lots of fares at the top end which are ridiculously high, there are also many fares which were unsustainably low. The presence of companies like Seatfrog is testament to that.

 

[yorksrob]

That goes two ways - the travelling public might think that the fare isn't priced as low as its economic worth.

The sweet spot is the price that maximises the revenue, not the price that carries the most people.

That's all well and lovely, except that it is we taxpayers who are finding the railway. We might decide that carrying more passengers is a better use of the service we're paying for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2021 ==

You can't cannibalise your product, though.

One of the big issues with the fares system is while there are lots of fares at the top end which are ridiculously high, there are also many fares which were unsustainably low. The presence of companies like Seatfrog is testament to that.

I must admit, if far rather have consistently competitive pricing than ridiculously cheap advance purchase on tap. Those should be used to fill quiet trains where they exist.

The main thrust of reform should be in getting rid of those stupidly overpriced high end fares that only exist in case some mythical business man with a never ending expense account suddenly decided to travel to Penzance. The industry seems to be added to them though.

 

[Haywain]

That's all well and lovely, except that it is we taxpayers who are finding the railway. We might decide that carrying more passengers is a better use of the service we're paying for.

We taxpayers elected a government who think that minimising the amount of money spent on subsidising public transport, while hugely subsidising private transport, is the better approach.

 

[andylikestrain]

If you don't want to pay £20.60 each way or more, I think that GWR would rather you just didn't travel with them.

Similarly to how if you want a pint of beer out, but won't pay more than £1.99 for it, overwhelmingly most pubs and bars now would probably be happier without you there.

Oh yes, I meant the increase seems a lot. I don’t mind paying/can pay the new fare. I don’t know any pubs where the price of a pint of beer has increased by a third over the last few years..

 

[david1212]

That goes two ways - the travelling public might think that the fare isn't priced as low as its economic worth.

The sweet spot is the price that maximises the revenue, not the price that carries the most people.

Rail is, or at least ought to be, a public all day service. There is a balance of aiming to achieve this rather than not running at all where the cost of the latter would be lower e.g. a frequency of 15 minutes peak and 30 minutes off-peak rather than hourly or less. Inevitably there is spare capacity at times of lower demand.

Train specific discounted advance tickets ought to serve two purposes.
The first is to encourage those who are flexible when they travel to do so at quieter times with the objective of minimising the number of services be they peak or off-peak that do run very close to or beyond capacity.
The second is ' bums on seats ' rather than ' relocating fresh air ' from ticket sales to those who otherwise would not travel by rail at all.
The skill is setting the advance ticket prices and quotas.

Now we have moved from franchises to concessions and ( I presume ) all ticket revenue goes into a common pot then ORCATS distribution is dead what there is no need for is operator specific tickets with the objective of that operator keeping all the ticket revenue rather than sharing the number of passengers on each train by encouraging some to take a slower journey in return for paying a lower fare.

 

[trainophile]

Just noticed that TfW Advances have gone up by a couple of quid on the routes I use from next week, which is around 20%. It was nice while it lasted.

 

[Haywain]

Rail is, or at least ought to be, a public all day service.

Tell the DfT and the Treasury.

 

[Starmill]

I don’t know any pubs where the price of a pint of beer has increased by a third over the last few years..

Sadly common enough. Although at least in a pub you're paying mainly for the experience of being in the pub. If the experience is nice, then I'm willing to pay for it. If one just wanted the beer one would compare prices of it in supermarkets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2021 ==

Rail is, or at least ought to be, a public all day service. There is a balance of aiming to achieve this rather than not running at all where the cost of the latter would be lower e.g. a frequency of 15 minutes peak and 30 minutes off-peak rather than hourly or less. Inevitably there is spare capacity at times of lower demand.

Train specific discounted advance tickets ought to serve two purposes.
The first is to encourage those who are flexible when they travel to do so at quieter times with the objective of minimising the number of services be they peak or off-peak that do run very close to or beyond capacity.
The second is ' bums on seats ' rather than ' relocating fresh air ' from ticket sales to those who otherwise would not travel by rail at all.
The skill is setting the advance ticket prices and quotas.

Now we have moved from franchises to concessions and ( I presume ) all ticket revenue goes into a common pot then ORCATS distribution is dead what there is no need for is operator specific tickets with the objective of that operator keeping all the ticket revenue rather than sharing the number of passengers on each train by encouraging some to take a slower journey in return for paying a lower fare.

The reality is that they want money much, much more than they want people to travel in a safe and low carbon way. So the Department are more than happy to have empty seats on trains if that's what's needed to maximise short term ticket revenue. Like a great deal of government policy to my mind, it is genuinely infuriating.