Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Ediswan]

You would expect charge points to be installed where they are needed in 5 years time, when EV ownership is around 20-30%, not where owners have them now.

Moreover, anybody who has already procured an EV will likely have checked that the existing local charging infrastructure is sufficient for their needs.

However, this is a newspaper article, any or all details may be wrong. The councils might be using the data on current ICE vehicle ownership to help predict future EV charger requirements.

 

[daodao]

Regardless, if you have an electric car you aren't relying on a public charger 1.5 miles away. You would be charging at home, that's the whole point.

It is only possible to recharge a battery vehicle at home if one has a private garage with an electrical supply, or use of a private car park with an electric charging point. Over the last 37 years, I have lived in 3 properties, all flats. In the first, my personal garage had no electrical supply and in the second, I just had use of a private car park many yards away from an electrical supply. While my current personal garage has an electric supply, it is from a communal connection and the estate management company would prohibit it from being used to re-charge one's personal battery motor car.

I am using the term battery motor car, as this is what they really are; an electric car was the colloquial term for an electric tram(-car) in years gone by.

 

[DustyBin]

It is only possible to recharge a battery vehicle at home if one has a private garage with an electrical supply, or use of a private car park with an electric charging point. Over the last 37 years, I have lived in 3 properties, all flats. In the first, my personal garage had no electrical supply and in the second, I just had use of a private car park many yards away from an electrical supply. While my current personal garage has an electric supply, it is from a communal connection and the estate management company would prohibit it from being used to re-charge one's personal battery motor car.

I am using the term battery motor car, as this is what they really are; an electric car was the colloquial term for an electric tram(-car) in years gone by.

Presumably you’re referring to people living in flats specifically here?

 

[Harpers Tate]

As an EV driver I would not recommend an EV to someone without a home charger.

As an EV driver, in the last 2 years I have used my home charger once - and that was to test it; not through need. I have driven about 12000 miles. So, clearly, I could do without.
IMO too blanket a statement; it all depends on numerous factors including lifestyle, driving pattern, local availability and so on.

 

[daodao]

Presumably you’re referring to people living in flats specifically here?

Recharging a battery vehicle would be difficult for house-dwellers without private off-street parking/garages (e.g. in terrace housing) as well as many living in flats.

 

[AM9]

Once again, the discussion has become lodged in the past and present. Nobody is advocating the wholesale change to EVs without any change in the infrastructure as it is now. The provision of charging opportunities for owners in all circumstances are being planned and installed at an exponential rate that will meet the rising demand.
Without that there would be no point in legislating for the removal of IC engined vehicles. Anecdotal examples of local inadequate provision are not an indicator of the general trend in adoption of EVs. That is evedenced by the number of EV owners who are using their vehicles exclusively charged at public stations and covering mileages that are typical of well-used IC vehicles.

 

[Bald Rick]

It is only possible to recharge a battery vehicle at home if one has a private garage with an electrical supply, or use of a private car park with an electric charging point.

I think you mean one of:

Off street dedicated parking space with a nearby dedicated electrical supply linked to your meter
Off street shared parking with an adjacent shared charging point
On street parking with an adjacent shared charging point (see my pic of lamppost chargers upthread)

You don’t need a garage or private car park.

 

[daodao]

I think you mean one of:

Off street dedicated parking space with a nearby dedicated electrical supply linked to your meter
Off street shared parking with an adjacent shared charging point
On street parking with an adjacent shared charging point (see my pic of lamppost chargers upthread)

You don’t need a garage or private car park.

The charging point needs to be secure, otherwise it could easily be vandalised. This would be difficult to achieve with on street parking/re-charging.

 

[DustyBin]

Recharging a battery vehicle would be difficult for house-dwellers without private off-street parking/garages (e.g. in terrace housing) as well as many living in flats.

See the above reply from @Bald Rick. Anecdotally, the most common arrangement I’ve seen is simply a charger at the end of a driveway.

Around the corner from our house there are two streets of rather grand Victorian terraces which don’t have off street parking, not even to the rear. One of the households are now on their second Model 3, if I’m passing and I see them I’m going to ask how they manage (at a guess I’d say they charge it at their workplace but I’d like to know).

 

[Bald Rick]

The charging point needs to be secure, otherwise it could easily be vandalised.

How many lampposts do you see vandalised? Or petrol pumps?

There is on street charging available now, lots of it.

 

[daodao]

There is on street charging available now, lots of it.

I have never seen "on street" charging available anywhere, in residential streets or elsewhere, as distinct from "off street" car parks and retail garages selling fuel.

Battery vehicle re-charging points do seem to be few in number in many areas, for example Google Maps only reveals one for public use in the whole of Macclesfield.

 

[Roast Veg]

I have never seen "on street" charging available anywhere, in residential streets or elsewhere, as distinct from "off street" car parks and retail garages selling fuel.

Ubitricity are the largest provider.

 

[EssexGonzo]

it all depends on numerous factors including lifestyle, driving pattern, local availability and so on.

And that is one of the most balanced and sensible comments in this thread. There is no one size fits all. No single EV, ICE or hybrid solution fits everyone right now. There needs to be nuance and consideration of the use case in this debate.

An EV is by far and away the best solution for some people in some circumstances.

An ICE is by far and away the best solution for some people in some circumstances.

 

[AM9]

I have never seen "on street" charging available anywhere, in residential streets or elsewhere, as distinct from "off street" car parks and retail garages selling fuel.

Therein lies the problem in this discussion, - you are (or have been) arguing from a position that you personally have not seen what others are talking about. Maybe this will help.

 

[py_megapixel]

The main problem I have (or had) with the on-street public chargers is that they're huge bulky things which take up considerable space on the pavement. However, this seems to now be a solved problem, as several images have been placed in this thread of chargers which take up barely any more space than a lamp post (or are even built into one).

We just need to get them installed!

 

[daodao]

Therein lies the problem in this discussion, - you are (or have been) arguing from a position that you personally have not seen what others are talking about. Maybe this will help.

Until such facilities are widely available, many people will find it impracticable to run a batttery vehicle.

 

[py_megapixel]

We've gone into a circular argument of BEV vs ICEV again, which isn't actually what this thread is about

 

[Bald Rick]

I have never seen "on street" charging available anywhere, in residential streets or elsewhere, as distinct from "off street" car parks and retail garages selling fuel.

Well I don’t suppose you have been looking for them. I see them every day.

 

[HST274]

Well I don’t suppose you have been looking for them. I see them every day.

what area of the country? Personally, as much as I think them a good idea, I would not find any 'lamp postesque' on street parking where I live, just the big chargers in car parks.I just do not think they have been installed as of yet.

 

[paul1609]

Not so useful in the West of Scotland, I fancy.

Ive just returned from walking the Hebredian Way in the outer hebredes. Every single hamlet and village has an EV charging station in the car park. Many of them are already rusting heavily. The one at Lochmaddy had a perspex shed built over it to protect it. I didnt actually see one of them in use and can only remember seeing 2 EVs in my stay despite the way being on the main roads for quite long distances. It an interesting comparison to Orkney where there were lots more.

 

[AM9]

what area of the country? Personally, as much as I think them a good idea, I would not find any 'lamp postesque' on street parking where I live, just the big chargers in car parks.I just do not think they have been installed as of yet.

But whilst numerous posters here dance on the heads of pins finding reasons why today they can't/won't/wouldn't get an EV now, nobody is even suggesting that they must. It's difficult enough for those who have researched the subject thoroughly to get the EV that they want on a reasonably short delivery because demand is outstripping supply at the moment.
So back to the original question, walking/cycling isn't really being hit that hard and the gradual matching the demand will ensure that those who want to mix their local travel modes will have plenty opportunity to do so as the impacts of the pandemic recede.

 

[37424]

And that is one of the most balanced and sensible comments in this thread. There is no one size fits all. No single EV, ICE or hybrid solution fits everyone right now. There needs to be nuance and consideration of the use case in this debate.

An EV is by far and away the best solution for some people in some circumstances.

An ICE is by far and away the best solution for some people in some circumstances.

That is indeed true and having had an EV for a few days now here are some of my initial thoughts.

The car itself is lovely but we come back to the fundamental issue of range. My car range is about 200 miles although practical experience from others suggested that might be on the optimistic side. Anyway my view was before purchase that it was just about viable for my needs.

So first journey 105 miles from the dealership where I purchased it had about 80 miles of range when I got back. fine.

Yesterday a trip to the SVR and back distance 130 miles each way. Original plan drive to Bridgnorth and then charge in Telford on the way back. However the weather yesterday was terrible, and the first part of the journey involved going over the Pennines and the combination of both seemed to really hammer the range and as such was not confident of being able to get to my destination without charging.

So I called in at Keele services where there were 2 chargers but only 1 had CCS fast charging for my car. Fortunately it was free and after some messing about downloading the app on my phone i managed to get it to work, a few mins later another electric car rolled up but fortunately it was a Leaf and could use the other charger. I think the idea of sticking to 1 or 2 companies chargers is not practical so my phone is going to be littered with charging apps.

Charging itself was ok took about 40 mins, while viewed a load of empty Tesla chargers at the other side of the car park. I then decided to go to Kidderminster as Zap map wasn't showing any chargers at Bridgnorth. I enjoyed the Diesel Gala but cut short due to the awful weather and the need to find a charger for the return journey. I went to Tesco's in Kidderminster where there were chargers but the CCS charger was out of use and the low power chargers are about as much use as a Chocolate Teapot unless you are going to be there for several hours.

I then managed to find an empty CCS charger at Morrisons, more downloading another app seemed reluctant to work at first but then I got it going eventually. Charging was fine, but of course it was only 1 CCS charger had another car been there I would have had to wait a while.

I took the Scenic route home, over the Pennines again the range took a hammering but on ordinary roads sticking the car into B mode I was able to regen quite a bit downhill I think much more so than the motorway journey outward so got home no problem on a single charge.

Now I do need to become more familiar with the car however my initial conclusions are, public charging stations totally inadequate in many parts of the country for any significant switch to EV's, Bad weather and hills will hammer your range, anybody who does significant longer range trips on a regular basis especially for business even with a longer range EV, forget it. Am I regretting my decision to buy one I think the jury is still out on that one at present. The reality of course present fuel crisis excepted is a 260 mile round trip is not even something you would need to think about with a Petrol or Diesel Car.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the idea of sticking to 1 or 2 companies chargers is not practical so my phone is going to be littered with charging apps.

I don't entirely get why you need an app if charging is free - why not just let people plug straight in?

But that aside, I don't think that is any more of an issue than parking apps. I have 3 of them, and the only overhead of that is setting them up at the start. After that you just pick the one on the signs of the desired car park. There are basically no phones left on the market now where storage is so low that a few small apps would clog it up - most are now 64GB at least which is absolutely loads.

 

[37424]

I don't entirely get why you need an app if charging is free - why not just let people plug straight in?

But that aside, I don't think that is any more of an issue than parking apps. I have 3 of them, and the only overhead of that is setting them up at the start. After that you just pick the one on the signs of the desired car park. There are basically no phones left on the market now where storage is so low that a few small apps would clog it up - most are now 64GB at least which is absolutely loads.

But most fast chargers in England at least are not now free in fact the 2 charges I has yesterday cost me £14.80 in total, there are some slow chargers which are still free but they are only any good if its at your destination and can leave it for several hours.

 

[reddragon]

As an EV driver, in the last 2 years I have used my home charger once - and that was to test it; not through need. I have driven about 12000 miles. So, clearly, I could do without.
IMO too blanket a statement; it all depends on numerous factors including lifestyle, driving pattern, local availability and so on.

Well done to you! I assume that you have the right facilities available, travel a lot and have a car with a good range or just a Tesla!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2021 ==

I have never seen "on street" charging available anywhere, in residential streets or elsewhere, as distinct from "off street" car parks and retail garages selling fuel.

Battery vehicle re-charging points do seem to be few in number in many areas, for example Google Maps only reveals one for public use in the whole of Macclesfield.

Most lamp post chargers are near impossible to see unless you know where to look

Yes Macclesfield is a desert!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2021 ==

The main problem I have (or had) with the on-street public chargers is that they're huge bulky things which take up considerable space on the pavement. However, this seems to now be a solved problem, as several images have been placed in this thread of chargers which take up barely any more space than a lamp post (or are even built into one).

We just need to get them installed!

These are what lamp post points look like. A socket that needs a device to activate from Ubertricity



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2021 ==

That is indeed true and having had an EV for a few days now here are some of my initial thoughts.

The car itself is lovely but we come back to the fundamental issue of range. My car range is about 200 miles although practical experience from others suggested that might be on the optimistic side. Anyway my view was before purchase that it was just about viable for my needs.

So first journey 105 miles from the dealership where I purchased it had about 80 miles of range when I got back. fine.

Yesterday a trip to the SVR and back distance 130 miles each way. Original plan drive to Bridgnorth and then charge in Telford on the way back. However the weather yesterday was terrible, and the first part of the journey involved going over the Pennines and the combination of both seemed to really hammer the range and as such was not confident of being able to get to my destination without charging.

So I called in at Keele services where there were 2 chargers but only 1 had CCS fast charging for my car. Fortunately it was free and after some messing about downloading the app on my phone i managed to get it to work, a few mins later another electric car rolled up but fortunately it was a Leaf and could use the other charger. I think the idea of sticking to 1 or 2 companies chargers is not practical so my phone is going to be littered with charging apps.

Charging itself was ok took about 40 mins, while viewed a load of empty Tesla chargers at the other side of the car park. I then decided to go to Kidderminster as Zap map wasn't showing any chargers at Bridgnorth. I enjoyed the Diesel Gala but cut short due to the awful weather and the need to find a charger for the return journey. I went to Tesco's in Kidderminster where there were chargers but the CCS charger was out of use and the low power chargers are about as much use as a Chocolate Teapot unless you are going to be there for several hours.

I then managed to find an empty CCS charger at Morrisons, more downloading another app seemed reluctant to work at first but then I got it going eventually. Charging was fine, but of course it was only 1 CCS charger had another car been there I would have had to wait a while.

I took the Scenic route home, over the Pennines again the range took a hammering but on ordinary roads sticking the car into B mode I was able to regen quite a bit downhill I think much more so than the motorway journey outward so got home no problem on a single charge.

Now I do need to become more familiar with the car however my initial conclusions are, public charging stations totally inadequate in many parts of the country for any significant switch to EV's, Bad weather and hills will hammer your range, anybody who does significant longer range trips on a regular basis especially for business even with a longer range EV, forget it. Am I regretting my decision to buy one I think the jury is still out on that one at present. The reality of course present fuel crisis excepted is a 260 mile round trip is not even something you would need to think about with a Petrol or Diesel Car.

Stick to Instavolt and Gridserve until you get used to it. Charge early & plan (until the network gets better). Treat the others as might work. Lidl are always good though on PodPoint

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Oct 2021 ==

Yes I agree that EVs could suit most people and the rest of drivers will in time suit an EV but an EV is only financially beneficial with home charging, free/cheap work charging or access to public free chargers. That will change very quickly. When I started there were few chargers and trips across Europe were impossible without a Tesla. Now anything is possible trip wise. Actually now any EV is better than an ICE car!

Back to the OP question, EVs will impact on some public transport use.
Zipcar or alike will have a bigger impact on public transport
Self driving cars will decimate rural public transport and night services.

 

[HST274]

But whilst numerous posters here dance on the heads of pins finding reasons why today they can't/won't/wouldn't get an EV now, nobody is even suggesting that they must. It's difficult enough for those who have researched the subject thoroughly to get the EV that they want on a reasonably short delivery because demand is outstripping supply at the moment.
So back to the original question, walking/cycling isn't really being hit that hard and the gradual matching the demand will ensure that those who want to mix their local travel modes will have plenty opportunity to do so as the impacts of the pandemic recede.

Did you quote the wrong post? If you didn't you are sorely mistaken about dancing on pins, as I own an EV myself. I just asked where the lamppost chargers were @Bald Rick had seen

 

[Harpers Tate]

I assume that you have the right facilities available, travel a lot and have a car with a good range or just a Tesla!

I do have facilities nearby and am currently (sic) enjoying the "holiday period" that is free fuel - hence lack of home use. And it's a Hyundai with a nominal 173 (closer to 200 in reality, with our pattern of use) mile range. 12k miles (Covid reduced, 18k more normal) in 2 years. Fuel cost to date under £74.

 

[trebor79]

I don't entirely get why you need an app if charging is free - why not just let people plug straight in?

I think it's something to do with turning the charger on. They typically aren't "on" all the time, and in fact when you first plug in there is a bit if car to charger communication before the energy starts flowing. You also need to switch it off before you can remove the cable - both from a safety POV and because the cable is physically locked into the socket whilst charging.
This is from my very limited experience last week... Lots of free chargers courtesy of the Scottish government. You either need a £10 smart card or chargepoint Scotland app to turn them on and off.
I guess an app is the easiest way to do that. Although I think the government is encouraging all new.public charging points to accept contactles card payment too (the charge could be zero if hey are free to use).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Presumably a power switch would be too simple?

I suspect the truth is closer to "so they can harvest your details".

 

[reddragon]

Pod-point turn on automatically when you plug in but will turn of after 15 mins if you don't claim the charge on an app. To unplug you press release in the car, that's it. All rapids all need an RFID card or app to turn on/off for good reasons!