Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[johncrossley]

It is probably not worth worrying too much about people who live in rural areas right now, given that there is plenty of room for optimisation regarding the 85% of people who live in urban areas, where solutions are easier.

 

[DustyBin]

Why do you detest a car simply because of its body shape? The hate on SUVs makes the mind boggle.

UK style SUVs are convenient, practical and generally not much different on fuel consumption to a classic estate car (my Kuga for example does 50mpg average). Is it because American ones that share the term are basically small lorries?

The main reason is that the majority take a car platform and raise the centre of gravity; how can that possibly be a good thing? The Kuga is blessed in that is uses the Focus platform so it actually drives pretty well, but it’s still top heavy compared to an actual Focus (and heavier in general for that matter). They just aren’t for me, if I really needed a larger more practical car I’d get a big saloon or estate (the cavernous boot is the only thing I miss about my old 5 Series). Each to their own I suppose, although I do curse when one pulls up next to me and blocks my line of sight at a junction!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is probably not worth worrying too much about people who live in rural areas right now, given that there is plenty of room for optimisation regarding the 85% of people who live in urban areas, where solutions are easier.

Exactly my point. Instead of the complexity of national electronic road pricing, this is why I propose the possibility of simply taxing the use of cars in urban areas, by way of a combination of congestion charging and taxation of parking spaces (so free parking in cities would not exist, even private parking). Much easier to do, and also means those in rural areas who don't have quality public transport aren't being taxed to fund something they can't use (but would be taxed if they drove from their rural area into a city centre instead of, for example, using a park and ride on the edge).

The main reason is that the majority take a car platform and raise the centre of gravity; how can that possibly be a good thing? The Kuga is blessed in that is uses the Focus platform so it actually drives pretty well, but it’s still top heavy compared to an actual Focus (and heavier in general for that matter). They just aren’t for me, if I really needed a larger more practical car I’d get a big saloon or estate (the cavernous boot is the only thing I miss about my old 5 Series). Each to their own I suppose, although I do curse when one pulls up next to me and blocks my line of sight at a junction!

The best thing about them is that they are easy to get into and out of (particularly if your knees aren't good), and spacious if you are tall and have long legs (I've had a Vectra estate which is a good large car, but any car where you sit near the floor isn't good if you have long legs and shortish arms - very rarely does the wheel adjust enough for it to be as comfortable as a more van-like driving position).

If you don't want to drive one by all means don't, but lots of us like them. Most of the advantages can also be had from an MPV, but Euro SUVs are the same sort of thing but look better*, so why not? Most aren't even 4 wheel drive so you don't have the transmission losses.

* To be fair the Kuga and C-Max look very similar, but that just adds weight to my view that Ford basically only make one car, it's just available in different lengths and heights

 

[DustyBin]

The best thing about them is that they are easy to get into and out of (particularly if your knees aren't good), and spacious if you are tall and have long legs (I've had a Vectra estate which is a good large car, but any car where you sit near the floor isn't good if you have long legs and shortish arms - very rarely does the wheel adjust enough for it to be as comfortable as a more van-like driving position).

If you don't want to drive one by all means don't, but lots of us like them. Most of the advantages can also be had from an MPV, but Euro SUVs are the same sort of thing but look better*, so why not? Most aren't even 4 wheel drive so you don't have the transmission losses.

* To be fair the Kuga and C-Max look very similar, but that just adds weight to my view that Ford basically only make one car, it's just available in different lengths and heights

I fully accept what you’re saying, my mother swapped from a Focus to a C-Max for exactly the same reasons.

The Focus, Kuga and C-Max do all share the same platform so you’re correct up to a point; don’t forget though there are the Fiesta and Mondeo platforms, as well as the Mustang (and even the GT, not that you’re likely to ever see one on the road!).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Looking at the thread title, the move away from vehicles that have used the traditional fuels with a time period now set for the demise of that methodology, I see that the freedom to have ones own personal source of transport by the new mode of electric traction that takes you from door to door on journeys to and from your place of employment or more mundane matters such as supermarket shopping or leisure visits as a replacement seems to be anathema to those who espouse public transport as the methodology to be imposed upon the travelling public by politicians whose own personal political agenda seems to be the only allowable one. I cite Andy Burnham in his mayoral role of Greater Manchester as a prime example of letting political dogma over-ride the freedom of the individual.

 

[The Ham]

I think this is getting quite finiticky over the meaning of rural. You know full well what kind of place I mean, and it does not have 2tph of train service unless you are very, very lucky.

The point that I'm making is that the sort of rural that you are talking about is a very small amount of the population (even including places like where I live) it's only 15% of the population, that still leaves 85% of people and likely over 50% of all cars (bearing in mind that there's more cars than tax payers) where there's the potential for things to change to reduce the need for car ownership.

That's not too say that it would be easy for everyone, but there's certainly quite a few who could with limited improvements.

For instance the local junior school (catchment mostly within 1 mile of the school) on Thursday had the main car park used for drop off with 80 cars parked and at least another 40 queuing to get in/out. Now whilst the school has a roll of 480 children and the local infant school has a further 360 and is next door quite a few of those will be siblings and there's other areas where people park (easily enough for another 60 cars). As such it's highly unlikely that at least 20% of parents needed to drive (other than it was a bit damp, but that didn't stop lots walking to school).

Before anyone says about getting children to other schools the local secondary school is far enough away that the kids get a free bus, so almost no-one drivers their kids to that school and very few would be at any of the other infant/junior schools.

My eldest, on the way home, said that she likes "racing" the cars coming out of the car park and then just add they get to the main road making them stop again by using the pelican crossing!

 

[DustyBin]

Looking at the thread title, the move away from vehicles that have used the traditional fuels with a time period now set for the demise of that methodology, I see that the freedom to have ones own personal source of transport by the new mode of electric traction that takes you from door to door on journeys to and from your place of employment or more mundane matters such as supermarket shopping or leisure visits as a replacement seems to be anathema to those who espouse public transport as the methodology to be imposed upon the travelling public by politicians whose own personal political agenda seems to be the only allowable one. I cite Andy Burnham in his mayoral role of Greater Manchester as a prime example of letting political dogma over-ride the freedom of the individual.

I think this is where myself and @AM9 for example start to disagree; I get the need to decarbonise but moving away from cars generally is a different matter. We could certainly reduce car usage but some of what is being proposed in this thread is slightly draconian in my opinion.

 

[Lineside SE]

I live in a flat in so do not have a driveway or garage where a charging point could be installed. The London Borough where I live does not have a single publicly accessible charging point so an EV is not an option until the charging point network is sorted out.

 

[Bald Rick]

The London Borough where I live does not have a single publicly accessible charging point

Which London Borough is that?

 

[gg1]

Cycling is on the rise in the UK but people need to feel safe and that means proper infrastructure. Just saying "you need to cycle on this busy road" doesn't help anyone.

For me this is the single biggest reason I don't cycle. I would be genuinely terrified to cycle into the centre of Birmingham for instance, from the relative safety of my car I've seen far too many bumps and near misses over the years.

 

[Lineside SE]

Which London Borough is that?

Havering

 

[Bald Rick]

For me this is the single biggest reason I don't cycle. I would be genuinely terrified to cycle into the centre of Birmingham for instance, from the relative safety of my car I've seen far too many bumps and near misses over the years.

I regularly cycled in a Central Birmingham 25+ years ago, and that’s when car was king. Once I cycled through the St Chads Queensway Tunnel! Wouldn’t do that now.

 

[gg1]

The best thing about them is that they are easy to get into and out of (particularly if your knees aren't good), and spacious if you are tall and have long legs (I've had a Vectra estate which is a good large car, but any car where you sit near the floor isn't good if you have long legs and shortish arms - very rarely does the wheel adjust enough for it to be as comfortable as a more van-like driving position).

This exactly.

When choosing a car there are 3 must have criteria: a higher than average ride height (due my partner's knackered knees), non-CVT automatic box, and a comfortable driving position for both of us (we're 6'2" and 5'1" - it's surprising how many cars fail on this one, at least 50%). I actually have a preference for MPVs but there's simply less of them on the market these days, hence the reason we went for an SUV last time around.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2021 ==

I regularly cycled in a Central Birmingham 25+ years ago, and that’s when car was king. Once I cycled through the St Chads Queensway Tunnel! Wouldn’t do that now.

I used to cycle a lot in the 90s, made it to the centre of Wolverhampton and it's dreaded ring road a few times but never went in to Brum. Thinking back I probably would have done if I ever felt the urge or need.

I may well be looking through rose tinted glasses but I don't think there was as high a proportion of morons on the road then as there is now.

 

[reddragon]

Havering

I suggest an eye test is needed

 

[Bald Rick]

Havering

As above, there’s loads. Many are free to use - those at Tesco in Hornchurch for example.

Also Havering Council have committed to have charge points in every authority owned pubic car park by this time next year.

So you’ve nothing to worry about.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The point that I'm making is that the sort of rural that you are talking about is a very small amount of the population (even including places like where I live) it's only 15% of the population, that still leaves 85% of people and likely over 50% of all cars (bearing in mind that there's more cars than tax payers) where there's the potential for things to change to reduce the need for car ownership.

But that is my exact point - you can "get" most of those cars through parking levies, motorway tolls and congestion charges (even in smaller towns) - the few left aren't worth worrying about.

 

[Lineside SE]

I suggest an eye test is needed

View attachment 103360

The closest one to me is 1.5 miles away. Are you suggesting I walk 1.5 miles there and back every time I need to use the car. Not exactly practical!

 

[Darandio]

The closest one to me is 1.5 miles away. Are you suggesting I walk 1.5 miles there and back every time I need to use the car. Not exactly practical!

You simply claimed there wasn't one at all in the whole borough.

Regardless, if you have an electric car you aren't relying on a public charger 1.5 miles away. You would be charging at home, that's the whole point.

Edit*

Just been pointed out that you said above this wasn't possible. Apologies.

 

[DustyBin]

The closest one to me is 1.5 miles away. Are you suggesting I walk 1.5 miles there and back every time I need to use the car. Not exactly practical!

The idea is you charge it whilst doing your shopping etc. and that should do you for a few days at least.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 2 Oct 2021 ==

You simply claimed there wasn't one at all in the whole borough.

Regardless, if you have an electric car you aren't relying on a public charger 1.5 miles away. You would be charging at home, that's the whole point.

As I understand it charging at home isn’t possible.

 

[reddragon]

The closest one to me is 1.5 miles away. Are you suggesting I walk 1.5 miles there and back every time I need to use the car. Not exactly practical!

As an EV driver I would not recommend an EV to someone without a home charger.

OK, charging out is easy on a rapid and there are loads of free destination chargers but the reality is that the free ones are always busy and the paid rapids cancel out any saving benefits over an ICE

That will change sooner than most expect.

Just wait

 

[Darandio]

As I understand it charging at home isn’t possible.

Indeed, didn't notice that bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an EV driver I would not recommend an EV to someone without a home charger.

OK, charging out is easy on a rapid and there are loads of free destination chargers but the reality is that the free ones are always busy and the paid rapids cancel out any saving benefits over an ICE

That will change sooner than most expect.

Just wait

True but only if the reason to switch is cost. Every other reason - smoother, quieter, easier to maintain, better for the environment and other people - remains the case.

I will likely switch at my next change of car even if it costs more.

 

[reddragon]

True but only if the reason to switch is cost. Every other reason - smoother, quieter, easier to maintain, better for the environment and other people - remains the case.

I will likely switch at my next change of car even if it costs more.

I switched for all of the above but needed a cost comparison to afford it. Indeed my EV has been cheaper than by last ICE and is getting cheaper and better still.

It is very unfair that I can charge at home for 5p / kw inc 5% vat when those poorer / without drives have to pay 20% vat on much higher tariffs in public places.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would certainly agree the VAT should be the same!

 

[AM9]

I switched for all of the above but needed a cost comparison to afford it. Indeed my EV has been cheaper than by last ICE and is getting cheaper and better still.

It is very unfair that I can charge at home for 5p / kw inc 5% vat when those poorer / without drives have to pay 20% vat on much higher tariffs in public places.

Except that energy delivered by a charging station has additional costs, e.g. a dedicated site, dedicated supply, chargers and safety measures (home ones have to be provided by the user). Most of those extras are 'services' as would apply to a fuel station, therefore subject to normalrate VAT. There is also the fact that if a public charging station is offering flat-rates per KWh, then very little of that energy will be low priority as in night time supplied.
At home the likelihood is that the existing supply to the premises will be unchanged as was provided for all normal domestic uses, so whatever the grounds for 5% VAT are they would still apply.

 

[87 027]

Is this an excessively negative portrayal of the reality on the ground?

Access Restricted

Councils may be installing hundreds of taxpayer-funded charging points for electric cars in "the wrong place" due to "misleading" official data on the location of battery-operated vehicles, it has emerged. Local authorities across the country are relying on Department for Transport data to determine how many of the vehicles are based in their area, and therefore the number of charging points that they need to install to match demand, often with government funding.

But industry experts have warned that in some areas the data wrongly gives the impression that many thousands of electric vehicles are based locally, when in reality the figure could be dramatically lower. The "distortion" occurs because the relevant DfT data, which is cited on numerous council websites, simply sets out the location of vehicles' registered keepers, which are not necessarily the locations of the vehicles themselves. Entire fleets of cars owned by leasing firms are usually registered at the companies' headquarters rather than at the addresses of those actually using the vehicles.

(Full article is behind a paywall)

 

[Ediswan]

Is this an excessively negative portrayal of the reality on the ground?

Depends how detailed the location data is. If it is high resolution, to the building or full postcode, it should be possible to identify where the situation exists and adjust accordingly. If it is just the first part of the postcode, not so easy.

 

[Lineside SE]

You simply claimed there wasn't one at all in the whole borough.

Yes, that was a mistake on my behalf, primarily due to the fact that I have never seen one in the Borough despite travelling around it extensively! They do exist but seem to be hidden away out of sight.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is this an excessively negative portrayal of the reality on the ground?

Access Restricted

(Full article is behind a paywall)

Sounds like weapons grade b*****ks.

You would expect charge points to be installed where they are needed in 5 years time, when EV ownership is around 20-30%, not where owners have them now.

 

[reddragon]

Yes, that was a mistake on my behalf, primarily due to the fact that I have never seen one in the Borough despite travelling around it extensively! They do exist but seem to be hidden away out of sight.

It is annoying that most chargers are not visible, a real pain to find in a huge car park!