Jamesrob637
Established Member
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Double doors at two-thirds and a slightly higher top speed
Nothing to lose and lots to be gained?!
Nothing to lose and lots to be gained?!
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Should Liverpool to Norwich go over to Class 170 operation?
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There aren't enough of them. Nottingham to Norwich is scheduled to go over to 170 operation in due course (although as I have written before it would be good to see Norwich's spare 755s on this route instead now that they aren't needed for the services they were originally acquired for).
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Not been on a 170 (knowingly), but the TfW 175's are a quantum leap if any of them are coming-up?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Doors at thirds is the gain of 170s. I'd say yes, ideally 5 car formations. They have been used before.
Iskra
Established Member
Can 170’s use sprinter speed differentials?
AGH
Member
Didn't they used to run on it when Central Trains had the franchise years ago.
The Harrogate loop is operated by Northern and their own 170’s so isn’t an option for EMR.
I really wish people would leave Northern’s 170’s alone. And no we don’t want EMR’s junk 158’s in return before anyone suggests it.
But hasn’t it been said that the 755s don’t have the diesel range to work Norwich to Notts?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
EMR have 170s. They can use theirs, and use something else (e.g. 156s) on services that they would be used on. 170s are express units and waste fuel used on stopping services, a 75mph unit is better.
Killingworth
Established Member
First point is that the route is supposed to being broken in two at Nottingham so it should be Liverpool-Nottingham and Nottingham-Liverpool. Exactly when remains unclear but maybe different units for the two halves.
As a user of the Sheffield-Manchester section (I've used it to Norwich and Liverpool) I can see the big advantage of the central doors of a 170, particularly at Piccadilly.
Eastbound Piccadilly! Platforms 13/14! Will it be on time? Will it have 4 cars or 2? Will it be 158s, 156s or, until recently, even 153s? At least it's possible to walk the length of the train once aboard to find the quieter part. If it's a pair of 170s it's walking the platform to find the better half. In recent times the catering trolley staff have struggled to get aboard a 2 car train, then trapped and unable to sell when they can. In better times on 4 car trains I've usually bought from the trolley as they've worked the full train. (On TPE 2x185s you'll need to be in the front half to get a coffee.)
However, most importantly for me as a passenger are 3 things that are currently lacking. Changing from 158 to 170, or anything else, won't directly make a lot of difference. 1. That the train runs at all. 2. That it keeps to time, not 40+ minutes late. 3. That I can get a seat.
The last time I travelled back from Liverpool was in a tired 153 with the choice of another 153 or a 156. Not impressive! On a journey to Norwich I was far happier in a recently refurbished 4 car 158. If Greater Anglia could lend a 4 car 755 for evaluation it would be good, but that would have a lower seating capacity than a 4 car 158 combination.
Capacity raises a delicate subject. Should we judge by the number of trains an hour or number of seats in that hour? It looks as though TPE will be operating 2x185s over the Sheffield-Liverpool section soon. 364 seats in first and standard in a double set every hour. How does that compare with 158 or 170? There's supposed to be a third fast service between Sheffield and Manchester from about May 2024. What impact will that have? Reduce them all to 3 car trains? Scrub that idea and make both TPE and EMR 5 or 6 until loads increase to fill them?
What am I saying? Whatever is chosen we can only have reliable services if there are enough compatible units in service to supply the number of carriages demanded by the timetable throughout the day. Halving the scheduled number of carriages is bad news.
As a user of the Sheffield-Manchester section (I've used it to Norwich and Liverpool) I can see the big advantage of the central doors of a 170, particularly at Piccadilly.
Eastbound Piccadilly! Platforms 13/14! Will it be on time? Will it have 4 cars or 2? Will it be 158s, 156s or, until recently, even 153s? At least it's possible to walk the length of the train once aboard to find the quieter part. If it's a pair of 170s it's walking the platform to find the better half. In recent times the catering trolley staff have struggled to get aboard a 2 car train, then trapped and unable to sell when they can. In better times on 4 car trains I've usually bought from the trolley as they've worked the full train. (On TPE 2x185s you'll need to be in the front half to get a coffee.)
However, most importantly for me as a passenger are 3 things that are currently lacking. Changing from 158 to 170, or anything else, won't directly make a lot of difference. 1. That the train runs at all. 2. That it keeps to time, not 40+ minutes late. 3. That I can get a seat.
The last time I travelled back from Liverpool was in a tired 153 with the choice of another 153 or a 156. Not impressive! On a journey to Norwich I was far happier in a recently refurbished 4 car 158. If Greater Anglia could lend a 4 car 755 for evaluation it would be good, but that would have a lower seating capacity than a 4 car 158 combination.
Capacity raises a delicate subject. Should we judge by the number of trains an hour or number of seats in that hour? It looks as though TPE will be operating 2x185s over the Sheffield-Liverpool section soon. 364 seats in first and standard in a double set every hour. How does that compare with 158 or 170? There's supposed to be a third fast service between Sheffield and Manchester from about May 2024. What impact will that have? Reduce them all to 3 car trains? Scrub that idea and make both TPE and EMR 5 or 6 until loads increase to fill them?
What am I saying? Whatever is chosen we can only have reliable services if there are enough compatible units in service to supply the number of carriages demanded by the timetable throughout the day. Halving the scheduled number of carriages is bad news.
I like this idea, refit the interiors for longer distance work and run them as 2x3 car! However if we're going by the logic that anything can be used and solely used for this service, then I'd also suggest a four car Turbostar (168/171), converted to 170 but kept as four car. Both of those suggestions will take away the issue of having a non gangwayed unit (not that it's that important), and there would be fast boarding/alighting at the busier stations.
Being a bit more realistic, I don't see why EMR can't use 5/6 coach 170 formations on Liverpool to Notts, split it and run 158s to Norwich, and other sprinters on the low speed lines (until more 170s arrive at least)
317 forever
Established Member
Bringing together both your points, services from Leeds to Selby and York via Harrogate could go over to 172s, displacing 170s to EMR for Liverpool & Norwich services.
It just might be expensive to move 2 batches and potentially need to refurbish the 170s for EMR so soon after their refurb for Northern.
The point I was making about 172s is that they aren't any more available for a move than 170s are no matter how much speculation is made.
It seems to me that Northern's 170s are staying put and WMR's 172s are staying put.
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