No Life Extension for HSTs

[starrymarkb]

http://www.dft.gov.uk/press/speechesstatements/statements/hammond2010...
Includes this fairly significant statement, in the context of current
debates:

"... Following this work, the four options Sir Andrew [Foster] identified,
have been narrowed down to two.
"I have _ruled out_ the option of requiring passengers to interchange from
electric to diesel trains, recognising the value to passengers of preserving
through-journeys.
"I have also _ruled out_ the option of a wholesale refurbishment of the
existing diesel "Intercity 125" fleet, some of which dates back to the
1970s.
"The remaining options are, on the one hand a revised, lower cost Agility
Trains proposal, which envisages a mixed fleet: some all-electric trains,
and some electric trains which are also equipped with underfloor diesel
engines. And on the other, a fleet of new all-electric trains which could be
coupled to new diesel locomotives where the overhead electric power lines
end."
"Both these options would allow us to preserve through-journeys between
London and parts of the rail network which are not electrified. Both of them
would deliver faster journey times. For example, we expect to see a time
saving of at least 15 minutes, for the journey between Cardiff and London
bringing it below 2 hours."
Paul

 

[YesToHS2]

Sad but inevitable. I might try and buy a power car as a monument, no where to put it mind.

 

[sprinterguy]

Sad but inevitable. I might try and buy a power car as a monument, no where to put it mind.

Yeah unfortunately I don't think I have a mantlepiece big enough!

Well, it had to happen some day, the HSTs were never going to go on forever. The UKs' railways will be a poorer place without them. Although the talk of new diesel locos to haul trains off the electrified network sounds tantalising: Is there a chance we might get a return to loco hauled trains??? Probably more likely to end up with dragged EMUs unfortunately

 

[At_traction]

That's it then.

I assume there isn't any scheduled timespan for retirement, except for the estimation of due retirement based on the date of last upgrades? Last upgraders will retire last...? *Books farewell travel*

 

[Aictos]

But if one set is preserved, imagine the UK being amongst the first to have a 125mph charter train operational!

 

[sprinterguy]

That's it then.

I assume there isn't any scheduled timespan for retirement, except for the estimation of due retirement based on the date of last upgrades? Last upgraders will retire last...? *Books farewell travel*

I doubt it'll be that scientific: Across the different operators who use HSTs, they’ll be withdrawn based on when that particular TOC gains new rolling stock, which will vary for each company. And within each TOC’s fleet, it is more likely that the power cars that are in the best condition at that time will be kept in service longest and the worst ones taken out first, which is largely linked to when the power cars had their last major exam, rather than to when they were refurbed with MTUs. I'll assume they'll all have to be gone by 2019 when the DDA regulations are upgraded.

But if one set is preserved, imagine the UK being amongst the first to have a 125mph charter train operational

!
It's already been done with the short lived Cotswold Rail HST: Mind you, a 125mph capable preserved train will be quite a thing to see: Railtours are going to take a lot less time to reach their destination in the future!

 

[Bittern]

...Huh. Need to do the Inverness - Kings Cross soon then!

 

[sprinterguy]

...Huh. Need to do the Inverness - Kings Cross soon then!

Well, during the course of this decade at least

 

[Bittern]

It shall be done!

 

[route:oxford]

But if one set is preserved, imagine the UK being amongst the first to have a 125mph charter train operational!

If the class 89 ever gets fully repaired, it may get there first.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Shame i think it will be a long while yet before there gona though, why do they not meet DDA regulations?

 

[sprinterguy]

Shame i think it will be a long while yet before there gona though, why do they not meet DDA regulations?

The slam doors are the main culprit and the step up to them-Not disabled friendly enough.

 

[ainsworth74]

why do they not meet DDA regulations?

I would hazard a guess that it's ease of access. Big step up and slam doors are not condusive to easy access.

 

[YorkshireBear]

ah dear well so be it, 91 ad mk 4's okay though?

 

[lm321412]

Will not happen for ages yet as there won't be any proper new rolling stock orders for a good while after Thameslink...

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I don't know if wheelchair-bound people have reasonable access to all areas of the train in the Mk4 sets, but I assume it is possile to fit them out, the question woud be if these are in the future plans, as if the HSTs are to be replaced by EMUs (with locos away from the wires) or bi-mode units, then I'd say there is a fair chance that the 225s could go too, there are few other places for them after all, unless an OAO wants them?

 

[ainsworth74]

there are few other places for them after all, unless an OAO wants them?

I would hope that they would be sent to the GEML before any OAO got their hands on them. Now if an OAO wants the 90s+Mk3s that would be released then fair enough but the 225s should be going to franchised operators first.

 

[At_traction]

And within each TOC’s fleet, it is more likely that the power cars that are in the best condition at that time will be kept in service longest and the worst ones taken out first, which is largely linked to when the power cars had their last major exam, rather than to when they were refurbed with MTUs.

So, in case of "unforeseeable delays" in gaining new stock to cover for peak operations, by the latter half of the decade we'll see HST units kept together with the magic of duct tape and wire thread... And they'll turn out like the Northern's Bishop Auckland line "rural charm" Pacers...

 

[jon0844]

Nothing wrong with duct tape!!

 

[ainsworth74]

by the latter half of the decade we'll see HST units kept together with the magic of duct tape and wire thread

Well before the refurb programme being undertaken by GC currently some of the cabs of their HSTs were actually held together by duct tape so it's already happening! hock:

 

[LE Greys]

But if one set is preserved, imagine the UK being amongst the first to have a 125mph charter train operational!

We at the 125 Group already own several Valentas. Now it's just a question of getting the rest of the train to go with them. Then we'll hear that sound again.

 

[Bittern]

Hopefully there's more than one set preserved. The last thing I'd like to see is a repeat of the 303 situation where only one was preserved, and it's only ran once in preservation.

 

[Rhydgaled]

How can that be their desision, as I see it there was always a necessity of IC125 life extension because not even Labour proposed electrifing the lines to Devon and Cornwall. As the GWML I think any proposed multipule unit, if even built, should be for the Bristol - Paddington, any Oxford Intercity services and maybe some ECML services. The rest should be IC225s (or a similar design with passenger space in the DVT) with fast couplings between loco and train so the loco can be swapped for a desiel to serve Pembroke, Carmarthen, Inverness etc. This eliminates any dragging of desiel engines under the wires or electric power gear while off wire.

 

[route:oxford]

The rest should be IC225s (or a similar design with passenger space in the DVT) with fast couplings between loco and train so the loco can be swapped for a desiel to serve Pembroke, Carmarthen, Inverness etc. This eliminates any dragging of desiel engines under the wires or electric power gear while off wire.

Would it not be quicker and tidier to simply have distributed electric traction?

The Diesel unit would only need sufficient power at the wheel for it's own light-engine movements, it would supply a traction current to the electric unit.

Ideally, it wouldn't matter if the Diesel unit were attached to the front or back of the formation, although sensibly it would be fitted with sturdy snow-deflectors and lead the unit through the Highlands during poor weather.

 

[Zoe]

The Diesel unit would only need sufficient power at the wheel for it's own light-engine movements, it would supply a traction current to the electric unit.

Would the diesel unit power its own movement or would the electric unit that it supplies power to be expeted to push/pull it?

 

[route:oxford]

Would the diesel unit power its own movement or would the electric unit that it supplies power to be expeted to push/pull it?

Own for light-engine movements.

Whichever is technically better for when coupled.

 

[Kneedown]

How can that be their desision, as I see it there was always a necessity of IC125 life extension because not even Labour proposed electrifing the lines to Devon and Cornwall.

Which was one of the reasons for diesel/bi-mode IEP wasn't it?

 

[43021HST]

any dates when the first withdrawals are going to take? :cry:

 

[sprinterguy]

any dates when the first withdrawals are going to take? :cry:

There won't be anything known for definite until a decision is taken on IEP in the new year, tied in with a decision about further electrification of the GWML.

In the initial, now scapped, plan for IEP deployment, the East Coast was intended to receive the first fleet of IEPs in 2013, it is likely following the delays to procuring any new trains (IEP or otherwise) that there will be no replacement for the HSTs until 2014 at the earliest.

 

[142094]

Wonder if this will encourage a new open access operator to enter the fray? Buy some HSTs on the cheap and do them up.