Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[stuart100100]

I'm talking about Merseytravel having pretty much said that 777s will not generally operate doubled up other than for special events and the likes. Which means in the peak (as Merseyrail commuting is likely to recover more than London commuting, with much of it being blue collar or otherwise requiring physical presence) you'll be playing "cram 'em in" much more than you do now, particularly if they head off on new conquests at the expense of the core network without ordering more units.

The platforms are all 6-car (120m ish), but the Stadler units have been designed specifically to accommodate all doors on those platforms despite the longer train, with the back hanging off, though the starter signals at Southport will need moving and a few other similar tweaks.

One of the Merseytravel staff at Birkenhead North yesterday said to me the ones that currently run as 6 car would be doubled up to 8 cars when I asked

 

[AM9]

Thankfully we're not all built like the late Jonah Lomu.

Precisely, - half of all adults are less than the average breadth.

 

[absolutelymilk]

I just read on Wikipedia that the power output will be 2,800 hp, compared to 880hp for the class 507s (and weight going down as well!). No source is given and that seems like a huge increase, is that correct?

 

[MattRat]

I just read on Wikipedia that the power output will be 2,800 hp, compared to 880hp for the class 507s (and weight going down as well!). No source is given and that seems like a huge increase, is that correct?

The Merseytravel website rates in at 2.1MW. I don't know what that is in horsepower though.

 

[Grumpy Git]

The Merseytravel website rates in at 2.1MW. I don't know what that is in horsepower though.

Approx. 2,800 hp

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The problem with UK rail, and particularly Merseyrail, is the lack of standardisation dating from how the system was built/managed over 150+ years.
Leasing is fine when stock (like B737s or A320s) are standard issue across hundreds of airlines, so they can flex their fleet sizes and deployment as the business changes.
UK rail is still stuck in a time-warp where a multitude of different standards apply, making many fleets tied to the routes they operate for decades at a time.
So there is much less scope for efficient leasing business models.
But "GBR" is still a long way short of the B737/A320 go-anywhere-almost-at-the-drop-of-a-hat standardisation model.

Merseytravel has bought its new fleet for a 40-year stint, like the 50x being retired (now approaching 45 years).
If they have too many/too few trains, nobody is going to help out.
Last time, BR sent a portion of its Southern fleet to Merseyside to save money - that won't be happening again.
Regional and intercity fleets have rather more standardisation, so can benefit more from efficient leasing deals.

 

[Mikey C]

The problem with UK rail, and particularly Merseyrail, is the lack of standardisation dating from how the system was built/managed over 150+ years.
Leasing is fine when stock (like B737s or A320s) are standard issue across hundreds of airlines, so they can flex their fleet sizes and deployment as the business changes.
UK rail is still stuck in a time-warp where a multitude of different standards apply, making many fleets tied to the routes they operate for decades at a time.
So there is much less scope for efficient leasing business models.
But "GBR" is still a long way short of the B737/A320 go-anywhere-almost-at-the-drop-of-a-hat standardisation model.

Merseytravel has bought its new fleet for a 40-year stint, like the 50x being retired (now approaching 45 years).
If they have too many/too few trains, nobody is going to help out.
Last time, BR sent a portion of its Southern fleet to Merseyside to save money - that won't be happening again.
Regional and intercity fleets have rather more standardisation, so can benefit more from efficient leasing deals.

Which shows the pros and cons of bespoke stock versus buying off the shelf

In 30 years time, there won't be a common pool of spares for Merseytravel to dip into either, as the trains start to age

 

[Skie]

Which shows the pros and cons of bespoke stock versus buying off the shelf

In 30 years time, there won't be a common pool of spares for Merseytravel to dip into either, as the trains start to age

They best had, as they have a 35 year design life!

 

[AlistairCowell]

Just saw that on the Railway Centre website's POD, the destination mentioned IPEMU.
Is that really true that Class 777 are IPEMU, allowing an ability to run off juice?

 

[Skie]

Just saw that on the Railway Centre website's POD, the destination mentioned IPEMU.
Is that really true that Class 777 are IPEMU, allowing an ability to run off juice?

Yep, some of the units will be fitted with batteries to enable them to run to the planned Headbolt Lane extension (which will be built without 3rd rail) with further aspirations to fit more units with batteries to enable similar short extensions.

 

[danielnez1]

They best had, as they have a 35 year design life!

I'm sure the new Tyne and Wear Metro units, and the other Stadler EMUs in the rest of the UK and world would help a bit.

 

[dgl]

The bits that make it go and the internal fixtures and fittings will be standard stuff used in other Stadler products, I would guess, with only the bodyshell and interior layout being non-standard, which won't matter one bit.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The bits that make it go and the internal fixtures and fittings will be standard stuff used in other Stadler products, I would guess, with only the bodyshell and interior layout being non-standard, which won't matter one bit.

Indeed. Short production runs of very custom units using modular components are how Stadler started out - their initial niche was Swiss narrow gauge lines.

 

[Gareth]

I still think some people on here are sad Merseyrail didn't just go for clapped out 331s.

 

[507020]

I still think some people on here are sad Merseyrail didn't just go for clapped out 331s.

Why would we want those?

 

[Gareth]

Typo. Class 313. And we wouldn't want those.

 

[507 001]

The bits that make it go and the internal fixtures and fittings will be standard stuff used in other Stadler products, I would guess, with only the bodyshell and interior layout being non-standard, which won't matter one bit.

Are the bits that make it go even manufactured by Stadler, or are they from a third party such as Traktionssysteme Austria?

 

[D821]

Just saw that on the Railway Centre website's POD, the destination mentioned IPEMU.
Is that really true that Class 777 are IPEMU, allowing an ability to run off juice?

All of the units will be capable of moving short distances under their own battery power. I think it is to allow them to move around depots and sidings without the risks to staff from third rails:

Artikel - Stadler

www.stadlerrail.com

 

[Skie]

Are the bits that make it go even manufactured by Stadler, or are they from a third party such as Traktionssysteme Austria?

Indeed, the traction package is from ABB.

 

[Phillipimo]

One of the Merseytravel staff at Birkenhead North yesterday said to me the ones that currently run as 6 car would be doubled up to 8 cars when I asked

Wikipedia states that 53 class 777s will replace 57 507/508s currently working. With better utilisation I don't think any shortened services would be expected.
I'm sure someone knows how many units are needed for the service, it's probably been discussed in this thread before!

 

[507020]

Wikipedia states that 53 class 777s will replace 57 507/508s currently working. With better utilisation I don't think any shortened services would be expected.
I'm sure someone knows how many units are needed for the service, it's probably been discussed in this thread before!

Wikipedia has always been slightly off on this. In reality, 52 Class 777s will replace 59 Class 507/508s. Of these, 508110 and 508134 have been scrapped and 507006 has been written off, leaving a current fleet size of 56. The 777s, once fully introduced, should reduce the number of diagrams with improved acceleration and braking reducing the layover at termini and improved availability reduces the number of spare units required. There are now 53 units, because the unelectrified Headbolt Lane extension increases the number of Kirkby diagrams from 3 to 4. David Powell has decided that 7 of these will be IPEMUs equipped with traction batteries.

 

[adrock1976]

Wikipedia has always been slightly off on this. In reality, 52 Class 777s will replace 59 Class 507/508s. Of these, 508110 and 508134 have been scrapped and 507006 has been written off, leaving a current fleet size of 56. The 777s, once fully introduced, should reduce the number of diagrams with improved acceleration and braking reducing the layover at termini and improved availability reduces the number of spare units required. There are now 53 units, because the unelectrified Headbolt Lane extension increases the number of Kirkby diagrams from 3 to 4. David Powell has decided that 7 of these will be IPEMUs equipped with traction batteries.

I did work out the maths a long time ago and for the standard 15 minute frequency pattern services both sides of the Mersey, I got it to 18 each assuming single formations.

My workings out were:

5 x West Kirby
4 x New Brighton
3 x Ellesmere Port (every 30 minutes. Additional 3 for morning and evening when every 15 minutes)
6 x Chester

10 x Southport - Hunts Cross
3 x Kirkby - Liverpool Central
5 x Ormskirk - Liverpool Central

Have the above remained broadly the same since?

This would still leave 16 777s to play with (assuming no doubled workings). As 7 will be battery, this could mean that Merseyrail could run beyond Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate every 30 minutes, which would mean 5 of the 7 battery 777s, with 2 spare for maintenance/breakdown cover.

 

[K.o.R]

The batteries can be fitted to any of the 53 units, so in effect any of the units can carry batteries.

An exercise to remove batteries from a 777 and refit them has already been conducted at Kirkdale depot.

Headbolt Lane is scheduled to open in 2023, so I would imagine things hopefully will have moved on by then.

Are the batteries fitted to the main train somewhere, or are they in a central pod like the diesels on the GA units?

 

[Techniquest]

I know how wide they are as I've sat on them in the mock-up They aren't wide enough for two average males to sit together without one sticking out into the aisle.

It is shoulder width that is the issue, not squab width. Just as the seat bases in 350/1s and 350/2s are identical, but the extra shoulder space by spacing them out is important.

Just curious, what size is an average male? The majority of the men I know are all fairly slim.

 

[Ribbleman]

Are the batteries fitted to the main train somewhere, or are they in a central pod like the diesels on the GA units?

The batteries are fitted to the underfloor of the driving cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2021 ==

I did work out the maths a long time ago and for the standard 15 minute frequency pattern services both sides of the Mersey, I got it to 18 each assuming single formations.

My workings out were:

5 x West Kirby
4 x New Brighton
3 x Ellesmere Port (every 30 minutes. Additional 3 for morning and evening when every 15 minutes)
6 x Chester

10 x Southport - Hunts Cross
3 x Kirkby - Liverpool Central
5 x Ormskirk - Liverpool Central

Have the above remained broadly the same since?

This would still leave 16 777s to play with (assuming no doubled workings). As 7 will be battery, this could mean that Merseyrail could run beyond Kirkby to Wigan Wallgate every 30 minutes, which would mean 5 of the 7 battery 777s, with 2 spare for maintenance/breakdown cover.

I think that your maths on unit utilisation is about right. It’s unlikely that the first extension after Headbolt Lane will be to Wigan. The design of the new station would require modification to allow through running. Short sighted, I know, but presumably all that could be afforded at present, given that Network Rail have said that any further extension towards Wigan will require track alterations and total resignalling, no doubt at eye watering cost, though that work would be incorporated in the scheme to build a branch to Skelmersdale, should that ever be authorised.

Local whispers and media talk suggests that the Wrexham line may well be the next to benefit from battery operation with the WAG very keen on through trains to Liverpool. Shorter block sections are badly needed on this line to provide the resilience required for reliable operation of the planned 2 trains per hour from December, whether it be Class 230 or still with Class 150. Some form of recharging will be needed en route for 777s to eventually take over but as previously discussed, that is seen as a readily solvable issue.

 

[wobman]

The batteries are fitted to the underfloor of the driving cars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 11 Sep 2021 ==


I think that your maths on unit utilisation is about right. It’s unlikely that the first extension after Headbolt Lane will be to Wigan. The design of the new station would require modification to allow through running. Short sighted, I know, but presumably all that could be afforded at present, given that Network Rail have said that any further extension towards Wigan will require track alterations and total resignalling, no doubt at eye watering cost, though that work would be incorporated in the scheme to build a branch to Skelmersdale, should that ever be authorised.

Local whispers and media talk suggests that the Wrexham line may well be the next to benefit from battery operation with the WAG very keen on through trains to Liverpool. Shorter block sections are badly needed on this line to provide the resilience required for reliable operation of the planned 2 trains per hour from December, whether it be Class 230 or still with Class 150. Some form of recharging will be needed en route for 777s to eventually take over but as previously discussed, that is seen as a readily solvable issue.

It's politicians trying to get votes and good press in the media with all of these stories, merseyrail haven't even got the 777's in service yet and will still require a legacy fleet running in parts of their network once the 777's do get into service.

Stadler ran 1 battery 777 in a short trial and everyone goes crazy, a lot more testing will be required before we see them on any routes. The Wrexham to Bidston line needs big investment there's still big sections of jointed track and the signalling is inadequate. Never mind the stations that need extending and need investment to bring up to standard. Then there's all the barrow crossings that the line......

 

[Skie]

Local whispers and media talk suggests that the Wrexham line may well be the next to benefit from battery operation with the WAG very keen on through trains to Liverpool. Shorter block sections are badly needed on this line to provide the resilience required for reliable operation of the planned 2 trains per hour from December, whether it be Class 230 or still with Class 150. Some form of recharging will be needed en route for 777s to eventually take over but as previously discussed, that is seen as a readily solvable issue.

I agree, it's most likely the Wrexham line will be next. It has a good business case as it requires little work to get some form of service running. Though running directly into Liverpool for a non Merseyrail toc would be a challenge, not least given TFW dont have anything capable of running on 3rd rail. Not an insurmountable problem though. Which makes me wonder if Merseytravel could purchase more battery 777s and then lease them to TFW to run, or run it on their behalf.

 

[MattRat]

All this talk of service extensions makes me wonder: How many of these new routes would have OHLE on them?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

All this talk of service extensions makes me wonder: How many of these new routes would have OHLE on them?

In significant quantity, or at all?

I think that neither Wrexham or Wigan Wallgate have any OHLE. Neither would going to Burscough (whether from Ormskirk or Southport) but an extension to Preston would presumably have some on the way into Preston station: Warrington Central wouldn’t but there would be some if running through to Oxford Road.

I am of course happy to be corrected if this is garbage.

 

[MattRat]

In significant quantity, or at all?

I think that neither Wrexham or Wigan Wallgate have any OHLE. Neither would going to Burscough (whether from Ormskirk or Southport) but an extension to Preston would presumably have some on the way into Preston station: Warrington Central wouldn’t but there would be some if running through to Oxford Road.

I am of course happy to be corrected if this is garbage.

Well I was just hoping maybe for the longer routes they could expand any existing OHLE as the 777s can operate that way, giving them much greater range than the batteries. Preston for example sounds like a good candidate for that.