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Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

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Vespa

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I've always been of the opinion it's better to own than to rent, rent is dead money somebody else will benefit and you keep paying until there is no money left, if you own something once paid off it's yours 100%, you can keep or sell, also any potential future payments is then saved for future use, money saved is money wise.
 
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chiltern trev

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On the subject of Stagecoach leasing buses, I thought the Stagecoach business model was to buy outright except buses for London subsidiaries which are leased. (There may if course be some exceptions to the above).
 

adrock1976

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What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Not surprising. Everyone(*) leases rather than buys if given the chance. Stagecoach lease buses, Ryainair lease planes, even Tesco has sold some of it's supermarkets and leased them back. The Angel Trains thing is also just a nonsense I'm afraid. As has been pointed out, they've invested by buying the train. Their profit is the return on the money their shareholders have invested. Ban them from investing, and they won't - their shareholders will either put the money in a savings account, or just spend it. Meaning less money to go round,

If you buy out of your own funds - which I'd be surprised if Liverpool City Region actually have done, because it would be mindblowingly crazy for them to do so (although the economic wherewithal of some of the Liverpool politicians involved probably means we shouldn't rule it out) - you use the money in full here and now. If it's e.g. £10,000 then that £10,000 is lost. That's £10,000 you can not now use for anything else.

If you lease it, even if it's over 30 years paying £500 per year (so a total spend of £15,000 giving £5,000 profit to the evil capitalists) you've got £9,500 left which you can use on other stuff. And if your operation (whether that be a railway, an airline, a manufacturer of exhaust pipes, or anything else really) can generate positive economic benefits, then it follows you'll be able to afford paying £500 next year (funded by the revenue, or in a public sector body the tax or some other funding stream generated by or offset by the economic benefit) and the £9,500 you have left can be put to better use and generate even more positive economic benefit. You could, for example, lease more trains to run more services and get more farebox revenue. Of build more stations to encourage economic growth and get more tax revenue. Or if you manufacture widgets, you can make more and sell more. Or pay for advertising. Or any number of other things.

In my made up example, giving £5,000 to evil shareholders is well worth the money, and it's money well spent. You've had trains for 30 years and been able to build 10 new stations, reduce ticket prices, and extend your network. If you were savvy about it, you'd put break clauses in the lease agreement so that when something unexpected happens and new trains are needed in 15 years time, you can switch to the newfangled nuclear powered trains instead of having to stick to the ones you've got. The alternative of buying the trains outright, just ties up the money in a depreciating asset that's going to need to be overhauled and then (most likely) scrapped. It will win votes amongst the trendy young crowd and the ageing Trots though. But not much else.

Of course there's a third option. Which is Liverpool City Region borrow the money instead of paying it. Which gives the same benefit of leasing and allows your political leaders to spout twaddle about capitalism and shareholders. But then they'll pay the financing costs (i.e. interest) and take the full risk of dealing with it if it goes wrong. (there are numerous examples of local authorities getting way out of their depth trying to do things they have no knowledge of, investing in Icelandic banks which went under, buying shopping centres and hotels and the like, and generally losing millions of pounds of other peoples' money). By the time you've priced everything into it, chances are it's no cheaper than leasing and could turn out more expensive. And of course, if nuclear powered trains turn up and change the world, you're stuck with the ones you bought and either have to try to sell them, cut them up and buy more, or just keep running them.

(* obviously I don't mean individual people in their own households, although they do for things like cars and many people rent their home or finance it by a mortgage).

Regarding Angel Trains, is that the ROSCO that is owned by the Royal Bank of Scotland - one of several banks that got bailed out when the economic crisis happened in 2008, and the former Chief Executive Fred Goodwin being stripped of his knighthood?

The Government at the time could have took ownership of Angel as a proviso for the bailout, meaning that there would have been a national ROSCO.
 

domcoop7

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I've always been of the opinion it's better to own than to rent, rent is dead money somebody else will benefit and you keep paying until there is no money left, if you own something once paid off it's yours 100%, you can keep or sell, also any potential future payments is then saved for future use, money saved is money wise.
It depends though. If you run a business, the idea is that your business is like a machine, with investment going in at one end (startup capital), and benefits coming out at the other end (profit). Now Merseyrail obviously is a bit more complex than a business as it is a public service too, but the principle is the same. Indeed they provide projections of cost benefit analyses where they say "every £x spent on Merseyrail provides £y of benefits". If you can lease items rather than buy them outright, and therefore use less of the capital on fixed costs, and therefore have more to put in your machine at one end, you'll get more benefits out the other end.

Somebody up-thread said that leasing was brought in to allow 7 year franchises, but that isn't true. It was done to get the assets (and future liabilities) off the government's balance sheet and allow the investment in the railway to be focused on growth.

And no doubt that is why the Welsh Government (who are probably ideologically even more to the left of Steve Rotheram) found out that it benefits them to lease their trains rather than buy them.

Now there are limits, don't get me wrong. Gordon Brown took the idea and ran with it and created PFI schemes, which were a bigger version of leasing, but instead of leasing trains, you lease entire hospitals, schools, streetlights, the London Underground as a network, etc. And for reasons that it's going too off topic to go into, the plant didn't work. Indeed Railtrack itself was created with a similar principle in mind - at privatisation they talked about Track Access Agreements being a "giant credit card" where railway upgrades could be paid for magically. And again, we all know that didn't work.

But for depreciating assets with some hefty potential liabilities, and limited alternative use (which is what trains are), the principle is sound. Like I say, no airline owns its planes, and the ROSCO model has spread all around Europe and is growing, which says something.

Even on the personal private finance level, leasing is common for cars for example - so much so that when I was a kid in the 80s, the streets were full of old bangers and driving 10 / 15 year old cars was not unusual. My first car in 1997 was a mid 80s rustbucket. But you rarely see cars much over 5 years old nowadays as so many people just lease them / finance them using personal contract plans and get them new after a few years. I always thought buying and owning the thing was better than leasing it, until I bought a second hand car, it just swallowed money on repairs and servicing, and within six months the timing belt snapped, rendering it £75 scrap value. So now I have a car on lease, it costs more (but when you take into account inevitable repairs, etc., not massively more) than the cost of buying it, I know exactly what I am going to pay each month to the penny, if it breaks it's their problem not mine, and when I need to drive instead of going public transport I can drive a vehicle that's far safer, more economical, and comfortable than I could possibly dream of being able to afford if I had to buy it outright. (Plus if I don't want it anymore at the end of the period I can just give it them back, and don't have to worry about trying to resell it or risk not being able to, etc.). Even if I had the cash in the bank to buy it outright (which I don't), I wouldn't, because I could use that money for something else more useful.

However, I think this is *way* off topic now for a discussion about Class 777s!
 

MattRat

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Has anyone been to the unveiling? I'd have gone but I'm on holiday at the moment, and will just miss the opportunity by the time I get back. What was the experience/train like?
 

507020

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Has anyone been to the unveiling? I'd have gone but I'm on holiday at the moment, and will just miss the opportunity by the time I get back. What was the experience/train like?
The unveiling is on Thursday isn’t it? I’ve been on 777008 unofficially though. As soon as the doors open, you get an overwhelming “new car train smell” but stronger than a car because of the size of it. The seats look better than the typical ironing boards as well.
 

MattRat

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The unveiling is on Thursday isn’t it? I’ve been on 777008 unofficially though. As soon as the doors open, you get an overwhelming “new car train smell” but stronger than a car because of the size of it. The seats look better than the typical ironing boards as well.
The unveiling was today (well, I think it would now be classed as Yesterday) as reported in the Liverpool Echo.
 

507020

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The unveiling was today (well, I think it would now be classed as Yesterday) as reported in the Liverpool Echo.
The Liverpool Echo also reported today (yesterday) that it was worked out to be over a third cheaper to buy the trains outright than to lease them.
 

AlexNL

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To chime in on the leasing thing: even the Dutch Railways (NS), a company wholly owned by the State of the Netherlands, lease their trains. From themselves.

At the end of the last century NS set up a daughter company in Ireland, NS Financial Services Company, which provided them with a way to lower their tax bill. After coming under immense political scrutiny halfway through the last decade, the Irish daughter company was liquidated and all its assets were transferred to a new company set up in its home country: NS Lease B.V..
 

43096

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To chime in on the leasing thing: even the Dutch Railways (NS), a company wholly owned by the State of the Netherlands, lease their trains. From themselves.
They also lease “externally” from Akiem and Alpha Trains (TRAXX locos) and ELL (the two Vectrons).

It’s increasingly common for state owned railways to lease at least some of their fleet.
 

Ribbleman

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The unveiling was today (well, I think it would now be classed as Yesterday) as reported in the Liverpool Echo.
It was originally publicised as the 777 being presented to the public for the first time on Thursday 9th and Saturday 11th so yesterday’s event comes as something of a surprise. Possibly arranged for the media so that the public did not have the opportunity to harangue councillors who were present.
 

Skie

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It was originally publicised as the 777 being presented to the public for the first time on Thursday 9th and Saturday 11th so yesterday’s event comes as something of a surprise. Possibly arranged for the media so that the public did not have the opportunity to harangue councillors who were present.
It was a separate invitation only media event.
 

Ribbleman

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Today saw the first of the two events at Birkenhead North station at which Merseytravel gave the public the opportunity to view a 777. The second will be on Saturday 11th between 10.00 and 14.00. My first impression is of a well designed and built unit with a solid feel to all of the fittings. Time will tell if everything works as it should but the Merseytravel staff that I spoke to are very pleased with the product and with the results of the extensive testing, heavily delayed by Covid. A few photos attached showing the interior of the passenger accommodation, the cab and the emergency egress folding ladder. The 53rd and for the moment, final unit, is said to be in build.
 

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AlexNL

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My first impression is of a well designed and built unit with a solid feel to all of the fittings.
Stadler products in a nutshell, in my experience. Solid and decent.

Thanks for the pictures, it looks like an absolutely fabulous unit and I'm confident that Merseyrail passengers will consider them a worthy upgrade.
 

Bletchleyite

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Stadler products in a nutshell, in my experience. Solid and decent.

Thanks for the pictures, it looks like an absolutely fabulous unit and I'm confident that Merseyrail passengers will consider them a worthy upgrade.

Until they sit next to someone - while I recognise why, the seats are very narrow, a la 700 (and for the same reason). I suspect this will draw fairly vociferous complaints.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which have largely gone away now.

Possibly because in the end from most stations Thameslink serve that's your option to go to London.

Liverpool's traffic congestion isn't anything like London's and the parking much cheaper, so if people don't like it the roads might do well, as might higher quality bus services, at least on corridors served by Stagecoach (I have difficulty with the words "Arriva" and "high quality bus service" in the same sentence).

Interestingly, having used both full and standing, I find that 195/331s are easily as good as 700s for dealing with big crowds, showing that it's more the standbacks and very wide doors that help than the narrow seats. Indeed, the wider seats with armrests on 195/331 mean you can walk up the aisle without hitting people sticking out. So I'm not sure this will actually have been the right call in the end, but oh well, we're stuck with it until mid-life refurb at least.
 

AM9

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Possibly because in the end from most stations Thameslink serve that's your option to go to London.

Liverpool's traffic congestion isn't anything like London's and the parking much cheaper, so if people don't like it the roads might do well, as might higher quality bus services, at least on corridors served by Stagecoach (I have difficulty with the words "Arriva" and "high quality bus service" in the same sentence).
For a 20mile journey to a city centre (including Liverpool, Leeds or Manchester) I'd still prefer a less than 20 minute train journey.

Interestingly, having used both full and standing, I find that 195/331s are easily as good as 700s for dealing with big crowds, showing that it's more the standbacks and very wide doors that help than the narrow seats. Indeed, the wider seats with armrests on 195/331 mean you can walk up the aisle without hitting people sticking out. So I'm not sure this will actually have been the right call in the end, but oh well, we're stuck with it until mid-life refurb at least.
I've not been in a crowded 331, but 'crowded' in a 700 is a much higher number of passengers per metre (7.2) than almost every other mainline train (possibly excepting 345s) and with the configuration of a 331, I doubt that it comes anywhere near that level).
 

Bletchleyite

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I've not been in a crowded 331, but 'crowded' in a 700 is a much higher number of passengers per metre (7.2) than almost every other mainline train (possibly excepting 345s) and with the configuration of a 331, I doubt that it comes anywhere near that level).

I suspect it won't go down well (and the Echo will get a great story) when it's realised that this higher density interior is to allow for fewer double sets to operate, i.e. "pack em in" is a deliberate design decision.
 

AM9

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I suspect it won't go down well (and the Echo will get a great story) when it's realised that this higher density interior is to allow for fewer double sets to operate, i.e. "pack em in" is a deliberate design decision.
Which class are these 'double sets'?

Edit: Sorry, I realised that your are talking about the 777s. On that point though, could it be that the projected demand within the life of those trains might need that capacity? I presume that the Merseyrail stations have platforms that are only up to 6-car length anyway.
 

Bletchleyite

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Which class are these 'double sets'?

Edit: Sorry, I realised that your are talking about the 777s. On that point though, could it be that the projected demand within the life of those trains might need that capacity? I presume that the Merseyrail stations have platforms that are only up to 6-car length anyway.

I'm talking about Merseytravel having pretty much said that 777s will not generally operate doubled up other than for special events and the likes. Which means in the peak (as Merseyrail commuting is likely to recover more than London commuting, with much of it being blue collar or otherwise requiring physical presence) you'll be playing "cram 'em in" much more than you do now, particularly if they head off on new conquests at the expense of the core network without ordering more units.

The platforms are all 6-car (120m ish), but the Stadler units have been designed specifically to accommodate all doors on those platforms despite the longer train, with the back hanging off, though the starter signals at Southport will need moving and a few other similar tweaks.
 

Skie

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The goal was to use the space as well as possible. They can’t extend the platforms by much (and not at all for the core underground stations) so making the entire train accommodate standing passengers was a common sense move. Trains will still be doubled up at peak where needed and they have sensors etc onboard so they’ll actually know exactly what services need strengthening.

The seats are wider than you think, wider than the existing ones, just without the large gap between them.
 

Bletchleyite

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The seats are wider than you think, wider than the existing ones, just without the large gap between them.

I know how wide they are as I've sat on them in the mock-up :) They aren't wide enough for two average males to sit together without one sticking out into the aisle.

It is shoulder width that is the issue, not squab width. Just as the seat bases in 350/1s and 350/2s are identical, but the extra shoulder space by spacing them out is important.
 

Mikey C

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The goal was to use the space as well as possible. They can’t extend the platforms by much (and not at all for the core underground stations) so making the entire train accommodate standing passengers was a common sense move. Trains will still be doubled up at peak where needed and they have sensors etc onboard so they’ll actually know exactly what services need strengthening.

The seats are wider than you think, wider than the existing ones, just without the large gap between them.
It's the gap which makes the difference, as that's where your arms go!

Without the gap, the window seat person sprawls into the aisle seat, and the aisle seat person sprawls uncomfortably into the aisle
 
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Grumpy Git

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I know how wide they are as I've sat on them in the mock-up :) They aren't wide enough for two average males to sit together without one sticking out into the aisle.

It is shoulder width that is the issue, not squab width. Just as the seat bases in 350/1s and 350/2s are identical, but the extra shoulder space by spacing them out is important.

Thankfully we're not all built like the late Jonah Lomu.
 
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