Wigan to Bolton electrification: possible changes to services

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Option B+ separates the Alderley Edge to Southport services, so if 323s are to run in 6-car formation on this line, it can only be between Wigan & Stalybridge. There seems to be a Southport to Oxford are service, but that’ll be determined by whatever can fit in P5.

Now that is what I call putting Southport back on the tourist map...

 

[tbtc]

• Half hourly Southport - Wigan - Atherton - Victoria - Calder Valley - Leeds (keeps unelectrified routes tied together, four coach DMUs)
• Half hourly Wigan - Bolton - Victoria - Stalybridge (six coaches to soak up passengers on the Bolton line)

No space at the Manchester end for additional services (hence the thinning out of services being planned - to try to increase Wigan services at a time when other lines are seeing reductions seems a bit... optimistic)

Keeps things simple and able to bounce back in the event of any disruption (rather than running various different hourly services) - if everything on the Southport line is ex-Leeds then it'd be a lot easier to tailor the stopping patterns (e.g. a "fast" westbound can become a "slow" eastbound)

One station in central Manchester (if you think that ordinary people are confused by having Manchester-bound trains running from different sides of the road in Wigan then wait to see how awkward it is trying to deal with trains serving different stations in central Manchester - better to have connections at Salford for the minority of passengers who fixate on a direct Piccadilly service)

Terminating the (diesel operated) Atherton services at Wigan and then having to ensure bi-mode trains on the Bolton services (so that they can run on the unelectrified line from Wigan to Southport) seems deliberately complicating things it'd make more sense IMHO to base the Wallgate services around which lines are electrified and which aren't (when the finite number of bi-modes could then be used on services beyond the wires to places like Windermere which aren't getting wired up any time soon)

 

[Ianno87]

• Half hourly Southport - Wigan - Atherton - Victoria - Calder Valley - Leeds (keeps unelectrified routes tied together, four coach DMUs)
• Half hourly Wigan - Bolton - Victoria - Stalybridge (six coaches to soak up passengers on the Bolton line)

No space at the Manchester end for additional services (hence the thinning out of services being planned - to try to increase Wigan services at a time when other lines are seeing reductions seems a bit... optimistic)

Keeps things simple and able to bounce back in the event of any disruption (rather than running various different hourly services) - if everything on the Southport line is ex-Leeds then it'd be a lot easier to tailor the stopping patterns (e.g. a "fast" westbound can become a "slow" eastbound)

One station in central Manchester (if you think that ordinary people are confused by having Manchester-bound trains running from different sides of the road in Wigan then wait to see how awkward it is trying to deal with trains serving different stations in central Manchester - better to have connections at Salford for the minority of passengers who fixate on a direct Piccadilly service)

Terminating the (diesel operated) Atherton services at Wigan and then having to ensure bi-mode trains on the Bolton services (so that they can run on the unelectrified line from Wigan to Southport) seems deliberately complicating things it'd make more sense IMHO to base the Wallgate services around which lines are electrified and which aren't (when the finite number of bi-modes could then be used on services beyond the wires to places like Windermere which aren't getting wired up any time soon)

And have everything call at Hindley so that Southport-Bolton passengers have a same platform interchange.

Also, Kirkby-Wigan times quite nicely as an hourly service with 1 unit (or half-hourly with 2)

 

[Kite159]

And have everything call at Hindley so that Southport-Bolton passengers have a same platform interchange.

Also, Kirkby-Wigan times quite nicely as an hourly service with 1 unit (or half-hourly with 2)

Maybe even if Merseyrail get the battery operated 777s up and running by the time Wigan - Bolton is wired they could take over the Kirkby - Wigan services. Even if it's half hourly.

 

[daodao]

• Half hourly Southport - Wigan - Atherton - Victoria - Calder Valley - Leeds (keeps unelectrified routes tied together, four coach DMUs)
• Half hourly Wigan - Bolton - Victoria - Stalybridge (six coaches to soak up passengers on the Bolton line)

No space at the Manchester end for additional services (hence the thinning out of services being planned - to try to increase Wigan services at a time when other lines are seeing reductions seems a bit... optimistic)

It will be some years before the electrification is complete. Would it not then be possible to increase the Wigan services to 6 tph overall, to allow:

• acceleration of Manchester to Southport services by running them (2 tph) non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via Atherton; and
• a separate regular interval (2 tph) all stations stopping service from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Atherton?

Both these services could run via platforms 5/6 at Victoria and extend to Rochdale (and beyond). I understand that the Castlefield line is a bottleneck, but Victoria has 4 through platforms, with 4 lines entering from both the east and west, and throughput can be maximised by keeping (as far as possible) ex LNW services to platforms 3/4 and ex L&Y services to platforms 5/6.

 

[Ianno87]

It will be some years before the electrification is complete. Would it not then be possible to increase the Wigan services to 6 tph overall, to allow:

• acceleration of Manchester to Southport services by running them (2 tph) non-stop from Wigan Wallgate to Salford Crescent via Atherton; and
• a separate regular interval (2 tph) all stations stopping service from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Atherton?

Both these services could run via platforms 5/6 at Victoria and extend to Rochdale (and beyond).

No, because there isn't capacity in Central Manchestrr.

 

[daodao]

No, because there isn't capacity in Central Manchester.

Please explain why there is no capacity in platforms 5/6 at Victoria.

Victoria has 4 through platforms, with 4 lines entering from both the east and west, and throughput can be maximised by keeping (as far as possible) ex LNW services to platforms 3/4 and ex L&Y services to platforms 5/6. Victoria thus has twice the capacity of the Castlefield line. Surely each set of platforms at Victoria can accommodate 8 tph.

 

[Ianno87]

Please explain why there is no capacity in platforms 5/6 at Victoria.

Victoria has 4 through platforms, with 4 lines entering from both the east and west, and throughput can be maximised by keeping (as far as possible) ex LNW services to platforms 3/4 and ex L&Y services to platforms 5/6. Victoria thus has twice the capacity of the Castlefield line. Surely each set of platforms at Victoria can accommodate 8 tph.

It's not just about Victoria, it's weaving them through Salford Crescent too (two flat junctions), and then finding somewhere to turn them back on the other side (Rochdale is spoken for by the Blackburn/Clitheroe service), and then you hit the Calder Valley.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's not just about Victoria, it's weaving them through Salford Crescent too (two flat junctions), and then finding somewhere to turn them back on the other side (Rochdale is spoken for by the Blackburn/Clitheroe service), and then you hit the Calder Valley.

The bay platform at Rochdale that was constructed in recent years is for services arriving there from the Manchester direction, but I confess to not knowing its length or the number of units that could terminate there.

 

[Ianno87]

The bay platform at Rochdale that was constructed in recent years is for services arriving there from the Manchester direction, but I confess to not knowing its length or the number of units that could terminate there.

Yes, it's used for Clitheroe/Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Rochdale services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes, it's used for Clitheroe/Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Rochdale services.

Just out of sheer curiosity, the bay platform at the other end of Rochdale station was used as the terminal platform for the Manchester Victoria - Oldham Mumps -Rochdale services. Can that same bay platform be used by services coming from the Littleborough direction?

 

[daodao]

It's not just about Victoria, it's weaving them through Salford Crescent too (two flat junctions), and then finding somewhere to turn them back on the other side (Rochdale is spoken for by the Blackburn/Clitheroe service), and then you hit the Calder Valley.

Yes, it's used for Clitheroe/Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Rochdale services.

I don't see the problem on the Rochdale line as it would still only have 6 tph:

• The terminating bay at Rochdale can still be used for the Clitheroe/Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Rochdale services (2 tph).
• The services from Southport/Wigan Wallgate that I have suggested (4 tph) would form the 4 tph via Todmorden.

I accept that Salford Crescent is more difficult. If 12 tph there is too challenging, the services from Lancaster and north thereof (2 tph) could run via Wigan NW and the Chat Moss line and then run onto the Castlefield line, as at present, leaving 10 tph (6 tph from the Bolton direction, and 4 tph from the Atherton line) to run via Salford Crescent. Previous timetables have accommodated 10 tph calling at Salford Crescent. Similar junction stations such as Cardiff Queen Street can cope with 12 tph.

 

[Neptune]

Just out of sheer curiosity, the bay platform at the other end of Rochdale station was used as the terminal platform for the Manchester Victoria - Oldham Mumps -Rochdale services. Can that same bay platform be used by services coming from the Littleborough direction?

Yes but what’s the point of doing that when those services from the east are for serving Manchester. The east bay is used during engineering works.

Not noticed it recently but is the former Oldham loop stub siding still there? Could be used for Manchester turn backs.

 

[jfollows]

Just out of sheer curiosity, the bay platform at the other end of Rochdale station was used as the terminal platform for the Manchester Victoria - Oldham Mumps -Rochdale services. Can that same bay platform be used by services coming from the Littleborough direction?

Signal TH7306, before the Metrolink flyover when travelling in the up direction, has a route indicator "B" for a route into platform 2 at Rochdale, "B" for "Bay" presumably. 15mph over the crossover and into the platform. So "yes" in answer to your question, I think.

EDIT Sectional Appendix extract, for completeness: (https://sacuksprodnrdigital0001.blo...(North) Sectional Appendix September 2021.pdf)

 

[Ianno87]

Just out of sheer curiosity, the bay platform at the other end of Rochdale station was used as the terminal platform for the Manchester Victoria - Oldham Mumps -Rochdale services. Can that same bay platform be used by services coming from the Littleborough direction?

Yes, having personally been on a train that has arrived in the bay from the Littleborough direction.

I don't see the problem on the Rochdale line as it would still only have 6 tph:

• The terminating bay at Rochdale can still be used for the Clitheroe/Blackburn-Bolton-Manchester-Rochdale services (2 tph).
• The services from Southport/Wigan Wallgate that I have suggested (4 tph) would form the 4 tph via Todmorden.

Then the challenge is getting the patterns to join up - the nature of the Calder Valley and the various stopping patterns along it mean that the interval of services might not be compatible with what is needed via Atherton (Atherton has to be relatively evenly spread due to the long signal section, but Calder Valley has to be more bunched due to the different stopping patterns)

I accept that Salford Crescent is more difficult. If 12 tph there is too challenging, the services from Lancaster and north thereof could run via Wigan NW and the Chat Moss line and then run onto the Castlefield line, as at present, leaving 10 tph (6 tph from the Bolton direction, and 4 tph from the Atherton line) to run via Salford Crescent. Previous timetables have accommodated 10 tph calling at Salford Crescent. Similar junction stations such as Cardiff Queen Street can cope with 12 tph.

The timetable at Queen Street is, in effect, structurally built out from that constraint. Salford Crescent has to take constraints from elsewhere.

 

[Halish Railway]

I accept that Salford Crescent is more difficult. If 12 tph there is too challenging, the services from Lancaster and north thereof (2 tph) could run via Wigan NW and the Chat Moss line and then run onto the Castlefield line, as at present, leaving 10 tph (6 tph from the Bolton direction, and 4 tph from the Atherton line) to run via Salford Crescent. Previous timetables have accommodated 10 tph calling at Salford Crescent. Similar junction stations such as Cardiff Queen Street can cope with 12 tph.

Or the services originating in Southport can go via the Chat Moss route, calling at Golborne when it opens, thus meaning that the 769s can still use the OLE from Wigan to Manchester and that 6 car services can run between Wigan NW & Manchester via Bolton whilst also not comprising connectivity for Bolton and journey times from Preston & beyond to Manchester.

Although passing these set accross Ordsall Lane Jn will of course be a pain.

 

[Ianno87]

Or the services originating in Southport can go via the Chat Moss route, calling at Golborne when it opens, thus meaning that the 769s can still use the OLE from Wigan to Manchester and that 6 car services can run between Wigan NW & Manchester via Bolton whilst also not comprising connectivity for Bolton and journey times from Preston & beyond to Manchester.

Although passing these set accross Ordsall Lane Jn will of course be a pain.

OLE won't be extended into Wallgate, and I doubt the WCML wires will be suitable for raising pantographs on the move.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or the services originating in Southport can go via the Chat Moss route, calling at Golborne when it opens, thus meaning that the 769s can still use the OLE from Wigan to Manchester.

Is it the case that there is not much call for passengers using stopping but direct services to and from Southport from Swinton, Walkden and Daisy Hill?

 

[py_megapixel]

Whatever they do, if they are recasting that line it needs to involve taking the Alderley Edge stopper off it and sending it into the main Picc shed, like it was a few years ago. The reliability of that service has been wrecked since they started sending it through Castlefield.

In an ideal world, it would also run about 20 minutes earlier. As it stands, it's pretty much being followed by the Stoke service all the way to just before Cheadle Hulme, which ends up leaving a huge gap in the service.

 

[Halish Railway]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Sep 2021 ==

OLE won't be extended into Wallgate, and I doubt the WCML wires will be suitable for raising pantographs on the move.

Golborne once open could be the place to do a switchover. If the 769 fails there are at least relief lines to divert trains around.

 

[Purple Orange]

Whatever they do, if they are recasting that line it needs to involve taking the Alderley Edge stopper off it and sending it into the main Picc shed, like it was a few years ago. The reliability of that service has been wrecked since they started sending it through Castlefield.

In an ideal world, it would also run about 20 minutes earlier. As it stands, it's pretty much being followed by the Stoke service all the way to just before Cheadle Hulme, which ends up leaving a huge gap in the service.

I think this may be happening as a part of the consultation?

 

[Bletchleyite]

One station in central Manchester (if you think that ordinary people are confused by having Manchester-bound trains running from different sides of the road in Wigan then wait to see how awkward it is trying to deal with trains serving different stations in central Manchester - better to have connections at Salford for the minority of passengers who fixate on a direct Piccadilly service)

There are lots of arguments for Southport services to go to one station, but something akin to the current pattern has operated for about 25 years (and still a split for another 10 or so years before that though peak only) and I can assure you it does not confuse people. It is primarily a local line for local people and they know what the service does, and those who aren't locals going to Southport for a day out will just use a journey planner and do what that says.

 

[cle]

Re line speed, would there be any benefit or appeal in routing faster trains that way? For instance, a Cumbria service, if electrified.

May be a tad slower, but it hits both Bolton and Wigan - where debate on Scotland/Cumbria services etc has often been an either/or discussion.

Or a Blackpool service, which is an easier move at Preston. Which might enable more stopping services up via Chorley.

 

[507020]

There are lots of arguments for Southport services to go to one station, but something akin to the current pattern has operated for about 25 years (and still a split for another 10 or so years before that though peak only) and I can assure you it does not confuse people. It is primarily a local line for local people and they know what the service does, and those who aren't locals going to Southport for a day out will just use a journey planner and do what that says.

Going to 2 stations gives a much greater range of destinations in Manchester and connections to further afield, both for local people travelling from Southport as well as visitors. If you happen to find yourself at the wrong Manchester station, you can also get connections to Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan Wallgate (or less so Wigan North Western) and change there.

Despite the historical basis for it, if all Southport services went to Victoria, people would find it a lot more confusing trying to work out how to get to south side destinations in and beyond Manchester.

 

[507020]

The benefit is being able to serve both Bolton and Wigan, but if Cumbria services were running that way instead of via Golborne, it could also allow for faster/more services between Liverpool and Manchester.

 

[daodao]

The benefit is being able to serve both Bolton and Wigan, but if Cumbria services were running that way instead of via Golborne, it could also allow for faster/more services between Liverpool and Manchester.

Running trains to Preston via Bolton and Wigan NW:

• is roundabout and therefore slower than running via one or the other; and
• will cause complications at Wigan NW, particularly in the Preston direction, because of the track layout and thus conflicts in joining the main through running lines.

It is better for the electric trains to Wigan NW from the Manchester direction to terminate there in the bay platforms on the eastern side of the station, as envisaged in the electrification proposal for the Lostock Junction to Wigan NW line.

One station in central Manchester (if you think that ordinary people are confused by having Manchester-bound trains running from different sides of the road in Wigan then wait to see how awkward it is trying to deal with trains serving different stations in central Manchester - better to have connections at Salford for the minority of passengers who fixate on a direct Piccadilly service)

I agree.

Going to 2 stations gives a much greater range of destinations in Manchester and connections to further afield, both for local people travelling from Southport as well as visitors. If you happen to find yourself at the wrong Manchester station, you can also get connections to Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan Wallgate (or less so Wigan North Western) and change there.

Despite the historical basis for it, if all Southport services went to Victoria, people would find it a lot more confusing trying to work out how to get to south side destinations in and beyond Manchester.

It is far better for a 2 tph service to go to one destination in central Manchester. It is much simpler to know where to go for the train service to destination X, particularly if there are late running or cancelled train services. In the case of Southport, as the line is not electrified (and will not be soon), the simplest and most operationally convenient arrangement is to run the whole service into platforms 5/6 at Victoria, and continue to Rochdale and beyond, as currently done on Sundays. This avoids unnecessary crossing moves. Connections for the south side of Manchester including the Airport would be available at Salford Crescent. Other than for Sheffield and beyond, it is illogical for passengers from Wigan or Southport to wish to change trains at Piccadilly for destinations outside the broader Manchester conurbation (i.e. beyond Cheshire/NW Derbyshire).

One of the key elements of the Manchester Recovery Task Force Consultation was to provide a more robust timetable with most routes operating every 30 minutes to the same pattern; this was especially true of option C, which is why I favoured this option. Unfortunately, revised option B+ has deviated from this principle, including for the Southport service.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It is far better for a 2 tph service to go to one destination in central Manchester. It is much simpler to know where to go for the train service to destination X, particularly if there are late running or cancelled train services. In the case of Southport, as the line is not electrified (and will not be soon), the simplest and most operationally convenient arrangement is to run the whole service into platforms 5/6 at Victoria, and continue to Rochdale and beyond, as per the current arrangement on Sundays. This avoids unnecessary crossing moves. Connections for the south side of Manchester including the Airport would be available at Salford Crescent.

Those of us still around who knew what Rochdale station used to be like, platforms-wise, must recall that station had far more use variation than is possible today.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Sep 2021 ==

One of the key elements of the Manchester Recovery Task Force Consultation was to provide a more robust timetable with most routes operating every 30 minutes to the same pattern; this was especially true of option C, which is why I favoured this option. Unfortunately, revised option B+ has deviated from this principle, including for the Southport service.

I have had sight of the ASLEF response to the Manchester Recovery Task Force Consultation. Can anyone direct me to a link where I can view the RMT response to it, please.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The benefit is being able to serve both Bolton and Wigan, but if Cumbria services were running that way instead of via Golborne, it could also allow for faster/more services between Liverpool and Manchester.

In the late 90s the Cumbria services did indeed go that way, Golborne was basically Parliamentary.

 

[Purple Orange]

Going to 2 stations gives a much greater range of destinations in Manchester and connections to further afield, both for local people travelling from Southport as well as visitors. If you happen to find yourself at the wrong Manchester station, you can also get connections to Salford Crescent, Bolton and Wigan Wallgate (or less so Wigan North Western) and change there.

Despite the historical basis for it, if all Southport services went to Victoria, people would find it a lot more confusing trying to work out how to get to south side destinations in and beyond Manchester.

You surely must see how that contradicts? If you’re at the wrong station, change at Salford Crescent or Bolton, but to have the journey all from one station makes it hard to get to the other? Surely you’d just change trains at Bolton or Salford Crescent, like your first paragraph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You surely must see how that contradicts? If you’re at the wrong station, change at Salford Crescent or Bolton, but to have the journey all from one station makes it hard to get to the other? Surely you’d just change trains at Bolton or Salford Crescent, like your first paragraph.

This is all predicated on the connection at Salford Crescent/Bolton being a good one. Ideally you are going to want to alternate Picc and Vic services with even-ish intervals between them so as to avoid too much waiting around in both directions, or if you're only talking about two half hourly services connecting with one another then they need to be the right way round for that, i.e. the Blackpool-Airport/Hazel Grove running 5 minutes behind the Southport-Vic at Salford Crescent (southbound) and vice versa (northbound) and the connections being maintained in the event of short delays rather than them going past Salford Crescent the wrong way round. (The connection the other way being less important as Vic is a less popular destination and there is already an hourly (non COVID TT) Preston-Vic anyway).

"Just change at Bolton/Salford Crescent" is a nonsense if that means a 29 minute wait. And you can just bet that sort of thing (maybe not 29 minutes, but something silly like 20) is going to be what they get.

This is why the Sandgrounders shout - a proper Nordwesttakt could sort this out very nicely, but what is planned isn't that, it's as usual a load of independent separately timetabled routes with no thoughts to connections. Going "you can just change" and adding 20 minutes to journeys by not planning that properly is not a solution; you could walk from Vic to Picc in that. It's not Metrolink.