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Wigan to Bolton electrification: possible changes to services

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HS2isgood

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I assume that is after Stalybridge electrification, as DMUs on Chat Moss would be a massive retrograde step.
After electrification, before it'd have to be a temporary Airport-Liverpool service. However it could be ramped up to 2 tph after being moved to Staly (with the elimination of the Warrington-Earlestown-Liverpool service). That'd double the service at Patricroft and Eccles. After NPR it'd run to the airport with the Ordsall Curve closed.
 
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317 forever

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You appear to be unaware of the MRTF timetable changes that are being introduced in December this year.

The Southport - Alderley Edge is being split into Southport - Oxford Road and Piccadilly - Alderley Edge.
The Barrow/Windermere - Airport is being rerouted via Chorley and Bolton instead of Wigan.
The Blackpool - Hazel Grove is being rerouted to become a second Blackpool - Airport.
The Preston - Victoria is being binned.
On the CLC, the Liverpool - Airport is being replaced by a TPE Liverpool - Cleethorpes, calling at Birchwood, Irlam and Urmston, while one of the Liverpool - Oxford Road stoppers is being split at Warrington Central, with the Warrington - Oxford Road part becoming peaks only.

This service pattern will have been in place for two years by the time the Wigan - Bolton electrification is delivered.
It's a pity to have 2 Blackpool - Bolton - Airport services but none from Southport even to Piccadilly. It would be good to be able to curtail a Blackpool - Airport service at Oxford Road, or divert it to Victoria, and have the Southport - Oxford Road service extended to Airport.

This need not increase the numbers of trains in operation but would increase the range of direct links.
 

Purple Orange

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I assume that is after Stalybridge electrification, as DMUs on Chat Moss would be a massive retrograde step.
Everything should be looked upon as a post TRU and post MNWTP world. The additional platforms at Victoria & Salford Crescent, electrification, Oxford Road and possibly Piccadilly remodelling, possibly Salford Central platforms, resignalling, etc etc. Making changes now is just rearranging the deckchairs on a sinking ship.
 

PTR 444

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It's a pity to have 2 Blackpool - Bolton - Airport services but none from Southport even to Piccadilly. It would be good to be able to curtail a Blackpool - Airport service at Oxford Road, or divert it to Victoria, and have the Southport - Oxford Road service extended to Airport.

This need not increase the numbers of trains in operation but would increase the range of direct links.
Agreed. I know this is all moot as the MRTF timetable is coming into effect this December, but I think the most logical solution to the Southport-Castlefield issue would be to simply divert one of the Blackpools to Stalybridge and extend Southport - Oxford Road to the airport in its place. Essentially this would bring us back to the original MRTF option C but with the Blackpools and Southports alternating between Stalybridge and Airport rather than all of one going to just one of the other destinations.

This would remove 1tph from Windsor Link and Castlefield, so if capacity allowed there could be scope to re-extend the other TPE back over Ordsall Chord to the Airport.
 

py_megapixel

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Agreed. I know this is all moot as the MRTF timetable is coming into effect this December, but I think the most logical solution to the Southport-Castlefield issue would be to simply divert one of the Blackpools to Stalybridge and extend Southport - Oxford Road to the airport in its place. Essentially this would bring us back to the original MRTF option C but with the Blackpools and Southports alternating between Stalybridge and Airport rather than all of one going to just one of the other destinations.
That would surely make it impossible to have even spacing between services on both sides.

I still don't really understand the problem with terminating the Southport service at Oxford Road. Services from Oxford Road to Piccadilly run every few minutes, and assuming they use the bay at Ox Rd to turn around the Southport (which they presumably will) the change will be less than a 20 second walk. You don't get connections much better than that.
 

Watershed

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That would surely make it impossible to have even spacing between services on both sides.

I still don't really understand the problem with terminating the Southport service at Oxford Road. Services from Oxford Road to Piccadilly run every few minutes, and assuming they use the bay at Ox Rd to turn around the Southport (which they presumably will) the change will be less than a 20 second walk. You don't get connections much better than that.
The problem is that it's a conflicting move to depart the bay. Which is not ideal, to say the least, when you're having to cross in excess of 10tph. The CLC stopper is frequently delayed at the moment due to the number of times there are laterunning trains which are given priority to enter Oxford Road station.
 

PTR 444

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That would surely make it impossible to have even spacing between services on both sides.
Not necessarily, it can be done if both services run at close headways to maintain an approximately half-hourly gap between Southport/Blackpool and Stalybridge/Airport. It’s not too dissimilar to the XC concept where the SW-NE/SE-NW and vice versa Voyager routes are scheduled to arrive/depart Birmingham New Street at exactly the same time so all its routes have an even frequency.
 

Greybeard33

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Not necessarily, it can be done if both services run at close headways to maintain an approximately half-hourly gap between Southport/Blackpool and Stalybridge/Airport. It’s not too dissimilar to the XC concept where the SW-NE/SE-NW and vice versa Voyager routes are scheduled to arrive/depart Birmingham New Street at exactly the same time so all its routes have an even frequency.
But I doubt you could get the paths to match up across Manchester. The Blackpool paths are constrained by the WCML timetable at Preston, while the Stalybridge paths have to fit in between the TPE expresses between Victoria and Stalybridge. And the TPE paths between Preston and the Airport cannot be shifted.

It is much easier to get a half hourly cross city timetable to work with linear routing (each pair of services has the same country destinations) than with a criss-cross pattern where timings on all four branches must mesh together.
 

Bletchleyite

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That would surely make it impossible to have even spacing between services on both sides.

I still don't really understand the problem with terminating the Southport service at Oxford Road. Services from Oxford Road to Piccadilly run every few minutes, and assuming they use the bay at Ox Rd to turn around the Southport (which they presumably will) the change will be less than a 20 second walk. You don't get connections much better than that.

And the main thing I understand Sandgrounders want is access to the uni and the south of the city, which Oxford Road provides.

OPSTA will go on about the Airport, but this is as worth listening to as those TPE users whining about having to change at Picc for their annual bucket and spade or increasingly rare business trips.

The Airport is for regional users an occasional destination - most workers live locally and do low paid jobs so won't be commuting from Leeds or Southport. Thus, giving day to day access to Manchester city centre must be prioritised above the Airport, with through services only operating for operational convenience (e.g. Blackpools) and any gaps filled with a dedicated "S-Bahn" service from Picc P11.
 

Tayway

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It really would be better if everything going through Central Manchester was co-ordinated to operate on a repeating clockface timetable every half-hour (trains wouldn't necessarily have to go to the same destination every thirty minutes, but the paths and stopping patterns should match for at least some of their journeys). This would make Castlefield more resilient, improve connections at Salford Crescent, and provide for more frequent services albeit to a narrower range of destinations.

Post Wigan to Bolton electrification, we should be looking at something like the following from the North and West:

From Bolton (4tph Victoria, 4tph Castlefield)
2tph Wigan North Western - Piccadilly - Hazel Grove
2tph Blackburn/Clitheroe - Victoria - Rochdale - Blackburn/Leeds via Dewsbury*
2tph Blackpool North - Piccadilly - Airport
2tph Scotland/Preston - Victoria

*1tph in each direction would operate as a circular to give Burnley and Accrington a faster service to Manchester

From Atherton (4tph Victoria)
2tph Southport - Victoria - Stalybridge
2tph Wigan Wallgate/Kirkby - Victoria - Rochdale

From Chat Moss (4tph Victoria, 2tph Castlefield)
2tph Cumbria/Liverpool Lime Street - Piccadilly - Airport
2tph Liverpool Lime Street - Victoria - York/Newcastle
2tph Chester - Victoria - Leeds via Bradford

From Warrington Central (4tph Castlefield)
2tph Liverpool Lime Street - Piccadilly - Nottingham/Cleethorpes
2tph Warrington Central - Oxford Road

This, plus 2tph from Hull/Middlesbrough via the Ordsall Chord, would give a combined 12tph at Oxford Road and 10tph at Piccadilly:

2tph Blackpool - Airport
2tph Cumbria/Liverpool - Airport
2tph Leeds - Airport
2tph Liverpool - Sheffield
2tph Wigan - Hazel Grove
2tph Warrington - Oxford Road

To the South and East, I would go for a similar idea of half-hourly pairs. For example, 2tph Piccadilly to Crewe via Styal could combine with the 6tph from Castlefield to give 8tph on the Airport branch, along with 2tph Alderley Edge to Piccadilly via Stockport.

2tph Piccadilly to Huddersfield calling at all stations from Stalybridge would allow TPE services from Victoria to be sped up, and the Llandudno service could be routed via Altrincham as in Option C of the consultation.
 
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py_megapixel

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To the South and East, I would go for a similar idea of half-hourly pairs. For example, 2tph Piccadilly to Crewe via Styal could combine with the 6tph from Castlefield to give 8tph on the Airport branch, along with 2tph Alderley Edge to Piccadilly via Stockport.
If you wanted to do that, it would make more sense to run to Crewe via Stockport and terminate Styal services at Alderley Edge, because then Holmes Chapel, Chelford, Goostrey and Sandbach get a significantly faster connection to Manchester, and Wilmslow gets the simplicity of all Crewe-bound services using the same platform.
It would of course be a good idea to time these to facilitate easy changes at Wilmslow.
 

Greybeard33

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It really would be better if everything going through Central Manchester was co-ordinated to operate on a repeating clockface timetable every half-hour (trains wouldn't necessarily have to go to the same destination every thirty minutes, but the paths and stopping patterns should match for at least some of their journeys). This would make Castlefield more resilient, improve connections at Salford Crescent, and provide for more frequent services albeit to a narrower range of destinations.

Post Wigan to Bolton electrification, we should be looking at something like the following from the North and West:

From Bolton (4tph Victoria, 4tph Castlefield)
2tph Wigan North Western - Piccadilly - Hazel Grove
2tph Blackburn/Clitheroe - Victoria - Rochdale - Blackburn/Leeds via Dewsbury*
2tph Blackpool North - Piccadilly - Airport
2tph Scotland/Preston - Victoria

*1tph in each direction would operate as a circular to give Burnley and Accrington a faster service to Manchester

From Atherton (4tph Victoria)
2tph Southport - Victoria - Stalybridge
2tph Wigan Wallgate/Kirkby - Victoria - Rochdale

From Chat Moss (4tph Victoria, 2tph Castlefield)
2tph Cumbria/Liverpool Lime Street - Piccadilly - Airport
2tph Liverpool Lime Street - Victoria - York/Newcastle
2tph Chester - Victoria - Leeds via Bradford

From Warrington Central (4tph Castlefield)
2tph Liverpool Lime Street - Piccadilly - Nottingham/Cleethorpes
2tph Warrington Central - Oxford Road

This, plus 2tph from Hull/Middlesbrough via the Ordsall Chord, would give a combined 12tph at Oxford Road and 10tph at Piccadilly:

2tph Blackpool - Airport
2tph Cumbria/Liverpool - Airport
2tph Leeds - Airport
2tph Liverpool - Sheffield
2tph Wigan - Hazel Grove
2tph Warrington - Oxford Road

To the South and East, I would go for a similar idea of half-hourly pairs. For example, 2tph Piccadilly to Crewe via Styal could combine with the 6tph from Castlefield to give 8tph on the Airport branch, along with 2tph Alderley Edge to Piccadilly via Stockport.

2tph Piccadilly to Huddersfield calling at all stations from Stalybridge would allow TPE services from Victoria to be sped up, and the Llandudno service could be routed via Altrincham as in Option C of the consultation.
Adding the requirement for 1tph freight, this service pattern would give 13tph to Oxford Road and 11 tph through Piccadilly in the standard hour. This is 1tph more than the MRTF is willing to allow until the Oxford Road remodelling is delivered in the late 2020s, per the Manchester Rail Blueprint. Also I suspect that the 2tph Wigan - Hazel Grove, making a total of 4tph from Castlefield to the Stockport line, would create conflicts in the Piccadilly throat and/or at Slade Lane Jn, pending additional infrastructure improvements that the Blueprint places in the early 2030s.

Termination of Scotland/Preston services at Victoria would, as a minimum, require a west-facing bay platform at Victoria, scheduled for the mid-late 2020s in the Blueprint.

The Victoria TPE services are already non-stop between Stalybridge and Huddersfield. TPE has considered making both Piccadilly - Huddersfield services all stations between Stalybridge and Huddersfield, as the MRTF originally proposed, but that would slow Scarborough - Manchester journeys (assuming the Scarborough/Hull swap goes ahead) and increase performance risk. I believe it has been agreed that the intermediate stations will continue to get 2tph in the peaks, 1tph in the standard hour, as now.

The CLC stoppers need to terminate at Warrington West not Warrington Central, to satisfy local political requirements for cross-Warrington connectivity. This is dependent on new turnbacks at Warrington West and Birchwood (the latter for the Liverpool stoppers), which might be delivered in the mid-late 2020s.

I do not think it would be acceptable to link the Blackburn/Clitheroe via Darwen service with the Leeds via Brighouse. Running a long distance service through the single line sections would increase performance risk.

I also think it would be a retrograde step to divert the Scotland services to Victoria and to divert the Cumbria services back on to the old route via Wigan and Chat Moss, when they will have moved to the faster Bolton route from December 2022. From December, these services combine to provide a half hourly timetable between Manchester Airport and Lancaster, in line with your principles.
 
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