Wigan to Bolton electrification officially given go ahead

[The Planner]

We seem to be spending a lot of time debating a solution to a problem that we don't even know exists.

You would remove a third of the posts on the forum if that stopped

 

[Llama]

None. It was done in 2013.

Headways/signal spacing etc weren't touched during that work in 2013, the only observable signalling changes were to the Atherton line and to a couple of signal ID plates around Hindley.

 

[Ianno87]

Headways/signal spacing etc weren't touched during that work in 2013, the only observable signalling changes were to the Atherton line and to a couple of signal ID plates around Hindley.

I.e..it was done like-for-like then, so difficult to justify the cost of enhancements until it next comes round for renewal.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I assume this cost doesn't include putting platforms for Lostock station on the Westhoughton line, as was talked about many years ago but never materialised?

 

[snowball]

I assume this cost doesn't include putting platforms for Lostock station on the Westhoughton line, as was talked about many years ago but never materialised?

It's not mentioned in the press release so presumably it's not in the current plan.

 

[Gathursty]

As the Atherton line will now be sandwiched by electrified lines at either end, shouldn't we just electrify both lines at the same time as the crew are in that area anyway?

 

[Ianno87]

As the Atherton line will now be sandwiched by electrified lines at either end, shouldn't we just electrify both lines at the same time as the crew are in that area anyway?

No, because there's very little point until Calder Valley gets wired (don't say the D-word). And you have to draw the scope line somewhere.

Hopefully both ends are done so that eventually adding wires is relatively straightforward.

 

[snowball]

There is, and has been for years, a lot of talk in some circles of making the Atherton line a Metrolink tram-train route. I haven't been following it in detail but I imagine they want to introduce on-street running from Salford Crescent into Manchester.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

As the Atherton line will now be sandwiched by electrified lines at either end, shouldn't we just electrify both lines at the same time as the crew are in that area anyway?

At the very least it will make the C in BCR lower

 

[WatcherZero]

I am probably being really thick, but does ’parapet raising’ mean making the walls of the overbridges higher so you can’t look over them or fall off them? If so, what height do they have to be raised to?

Yes, its about increasing the distance between pedestrians and the wires beneath to reduce the chance of coming into contact.

 

[swt_passenger]

I am probably being really thick, but does ’parapet raising’ mean making the walls of the overbridges higher so you can’t look over them or fall off them? If so, what height do they have to be raised to?

It’s to increase the touching distance to the live wires, not to actually to stop you looking, or falling off…

 

[InOban]

Although most parapets are concrete and do stop you looking (they're 1.8m). However in a few locations they've used high strength glass if the bridge is listed.

 

[gingertom]

It’s to increase the touching distance to the live wires, not to actually to stop you looking, or falling off…

to stop one from leaning over with the likes of a fishing rod or an umbrella in hand and it coming into contact with the OLE.

 

[alf]

But it’s been fun & I formative reading people’s posts.

 

[stephen rp]

Looks like there is relatively generous clearance underneath anyway, so shouldn't be an issue (or the bridge could be jacked up).

Wouldn't be surprised if that were a listed structure.

It isn't listed.

 

[swt_passenger]

to stop one from leaning over with the likes of a fishing rod or an umbrella in hand and it coming into contact with the OLE.

I think you’ve highlighted the key thing, it’s including stuff you might reasonably carry, hence much greater than just arms length.

 

[SouthEastBuses]

Fantastic news. Great to see UK rail electrification projects finally taken seriously as they were around 2014 or 2015 (something like that!), hopefully more to come soon!

I would say that electrification should be extended to Southport, and include the line from Wigan to Manchester Victoria completely avoiding Bolton (aka the one via Atherton). That way, you can completely eradicate diesel working in Wigan, and allow the 769s to be either converted back to 319s or replaced by extra 331s or cascaded 323s. You get to replace a handful of DMUs too!

 

[childwallblues]

In the 2000s there was a service each morning that ran Liverpool Lime Street-Wigan North Western (reverse)-Bolton-Manchester Victoria with a return in the late afternoon This could be re-instated.

 

[Ianno87]

In the 2000s there was a service each morning that ran Liverpool Lime Street-Wigan North Western (reverse)-Bolton-Manchester Victoria with a return in the late afternoon This could be re-instated.

Electrification doesn't make getting paths across the WCML any easier - that's why the service was withdrawn in 2004 (evening services) and 2008 (morning services).

A same-station change at North Western is a very good alternative for Bolton-Liverpool journeys.

 

[adamedwards]

The Atherton line should be a tram train as in Sheffield or the Cardiff Valleys, running between conventional trains, so you get increased frequency and choice of destinations in Manchester. But it won't happen soon. Next wiring needs to be Vic to Stalybridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

Which won't be approved by the Treasury any time soon ?

Treasury don’t approve individual elements. The whole project is approved.

 

[jayah]

This government certainly know how to waste money they don't have.

£78m to electrify all of about 7 miles of double track rated at 50mph, and complete 3 minor station extensions, one of which has 30,000 footfall in a normal year.

Given the Class 769s what is the actual benefit from this spending? Could they really find no more impactful way to spend such a sum?

 

[Ianno87]

This government certainly know how to waste money they don't have.

£78m to electrify all of about 7 miles of double track rated at 50mph, and complete 3 minor station extensions, one of which has 30,000 footfall in a normal year.

Given the Class 769s what is the actual benefit from this spending? Could they really find no more impactful way to spend such a sum?

At a guess, there must be some long term operational cost saving of getting EMUs back to Springs Branch more easily, possibly some fuel saving on the 769s or some other fleet efficiency, the saving for which adds up over time.

Plus:
-Consistent with Decarbonisation strategy, and
-Was probably one of the closest schemes in England to being "shovel ready" (ish)

 

[zwk500]

This government certainly know how to waste money they don't have.

£78m to electrify all of about 7 miles of double track rated at 50mph, and complete 3 minor station extensions, one of which has 30,000 footfall in a normal year.

Given the Class 769s what is the actual benefit from this spending? Could they really find no more impactful way to spend such a sum?

Don't just look at it between Wigan and Lostock. Utilising the paths through Manchester much better by running longer trains is a very valuable benefit to a much wider area than just Ince and Westhoughton.

 

[childwallblues]

Electrification doesn't make getting paths across the WCML any easier - that's why the service was withdrawn in 2004 (evening services) and 2008 (morning services).

A same-station change at North Western is a very good alternative for Bolton-Liverpool journeys.

A lot has changed since 2004/08. there are currently only four passenger trains per hour each way using the main platforms plus the odd EUS-BPN and LIV-GLC. Freight has tapered off during daylight hours with many liners running at night.
P1/3 are not near the subway which you have to use to access the Liverpool stoppers at P6.

 

[Ianno87]

A lot has changed since 2004/08. there are currently only four passenger trains per hour each way using the main platforms plus the odd EUS-BPN and LIV-GLC. Freight has tapered off during daylight hours with many liners running at night.
P1/3 are not near the subway which you have to use to access the Liverpool stoppers at P6.

Still have to find margins through this lot (https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...21-12-08/0600-2000?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt) and hope it lines up nicely with everything elsewhere...

And P1 ends right next to the subway

 

[WAO]

This government certainly know how to waste money they don't have.

£78m to electrify all of about 7 miles of double track rated at 50mph, and complete 3 minor station extensions, one of which has 30,000 footfall in a normal year.

Given the Class 769s what is the actual benefit from this spending? Could they really find no more impactful way to spend such a sum?

You are right to question this; £12M/route mile, £78M all up, seems a lot.

However this will have the 40% optimism bias (c£22.3M) built in. Also, such schemes have other expensive enhancements included that even a better diesel service would require. The platform lengthening may well require total rebuilding with DDA access and lifts, NR being a risk averse, ISO9000 organisation that does things the expensive way.

The real test will be train miles and passenger miles converted and traffic growth, together with the wider benefits to the Region, such as cross-city electric services. Strategically, NR must complete to time and budget!

WAO

 

[Ken H]

You are right to question this; £12M/route mile, £78M all up, seems a lot.

However this will have the 40% optimism bias (c£22.3M) built in. Also, such schemes have other expensive enhancements included that even a better diesel service would require. The platform lengthening may well require total rebuilding with DDA access and lifts, NR being a risk averse, ISO9000 organisation that does things the expensive way.

The real test will be train miles and passenger miles converted and traffic growth, together with the wider benefits to the Region, such as cross-city electric services. Strategically, NR must complete to time and budget!

WAO

or maybe its a sop to Burnham to make it look like they are authorising northern hub spend while avoiding the big ticket items.

 

[AM9]

... That way, you can completely eradicate diesel working in Wigan, and allow the 769s to be either converted back to 319s ...

Initally at least there wouldn't be a need to do anything to the 769s, just use them on 25kV only.

 

[snowball]

What was the outturn cost of Manchester to Euxton (excluding Farnworth tunnel)?