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ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

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Darandio

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Jealousy right here.

Why does the jealousy card always get played whenever there is the slightest hint of criticism towards railway employees, particularly train crew making a decent living?

What was said is very much a statement of fact, of course there would be thousands of people out there quite happy to work for that salary and on those terms.
 
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320320

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Ok then, if you say so. I was merely pointing out a fact that there ARE plenty of people out there who have lost jobs due to the pandemic and would jump at the chance at a 30k per year job. I'm not one of them as I'm quite happy with where I work and what I do, so jealous I aint.

If the vacancies haven't been filled then why has the agreement ended then? Are you telling me if you were stuck at home on a Sunday with no trains running you'd not say anything? I doubt it!
The vacancies haven’t been filled, that’s why there are trains running about every day uncovered or covered by either a management grade forced to step in or one of the few non RMT members working a rest day while the rest of their colleagues are in dispute.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Why does the jealousy card always get played whenever there is the slightest hint of criticism towards railway employees, particularly train crew making a decent living?

What was said is very much a statement of fact, of course there would be thousands of people out there quite happy to work for that salary and on those terms.
Because that’s exactly the way it comes across. Complaining about other people doing jobs, then mentioning how well paid they are and how you would happily do it for less only makes you look envious.
 

GALLANTON

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The vacancies haven’t been filled, that’s why there are trains running about every day uncovered or covered by either a management grade forced to step in or one of the few non RMT members working a rest day while the rest of their colleagues are in dispute.

You've not answered my question. I asked if the vacancies haven't been filled, then why has the agreement ended? It's a simple question.
 
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320320

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You've not answered my question. I asked if the vacancies haven't been filled, then why has the agreement ended? It's a simple question.
What makes you think i set the terms of the agreement? Go and ask someone from Abellio management about that.
 

GALLANTON

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What makes you think i set the terms of the agreement? Go and ask someone from Abellio management about that.

I never said you set the terms, I asked if the vacancies have not been filled, why has the agreement ended? It's really a simple question.
 

320320

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I never said you set the terms, I asked if the vacancies have not been filled, why has the agreement ended? It's really a simple question.
You were told already to go and ask Abellio management about that. It shouldn’t be hard for you to understand.
 

GALLANTON

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Yes, they are required to work some Sundays, typically around one in three, in what some call compulsory overtime. Sunday is not classed as part of the working week. Conductors can request not to be booked for one of those shifts but that will only be granted if someone else can be found to cover it. Sundays are paid as overtime for the hours they work, with a minimum payment of 8 hours. They are not required to undertake overtime on any other day of the week although many volunteer to do so.

While the numbers of conductors was below that required to operate without rest day working an extra incentive overtime payment was agreed. This would stop when the numbers reached the required level, which it now has. RMT agreed to this but, because the drivers are still getting it, RMT have changed their mind and feel their conductors and ticket examiners are being treated unfairly, hence the dispute.

Hope this helps

I've quoted the above that was posted by @Happilyretired for your benefit @320320.

It quite clearly says the payments would stop once vacancies reached the required level, which they clearly have which is why the agreement has ended. But the RMT in their own petulant little huff have decided to go back on the agreement and thus wiped out about 95% of ScotRails Sunday services leaving most of the country without a rail service. I don't know about you but to me that's enough justification for having a pop at them!
 

320320

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I've quoted the above that was posted by @Happilyretired for your benefit @320320.

It quite clearly says the payments would stop once vacancies reached the required level, which they clearly have which is why the agreement has ended. But the RMT in their own petulant little huff have decided to go back on the agreement and thus wiped out about 95% of ScotRails Sunday services leaving most of the country without a rail service. I don't know about you but to me that's enough justification for having a pop at them!
You’ve been told already that the vacancies haven’t been filled. There are trains operating every day that have no TEs on board or have management grades covering them.

You can have a pop at them all you like but you’ll find it might get a whole lot worse if the drivers end up in dispute. Then you can complain about them and moan about how you’d do RDW for single time never mind £375 or £431 if you’re covering another depots work.
 

the sniper

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I asked if the vacancies haven't been filled, then why has the agreement ended? It's a simple question.

The RMT/staff side didn't end the deal, how can 320320 answer on behalf of management? :lol: Your position seems to one of disbelief that management could have done something not in keeping with a deal?

As I've said before, disputes like this often come down to interpretation of poorly conceived/written deals. The operator don't seem to have been very forthcoming with pushing its side of the argument with evidence, which they surely could if it were an open and shut case.

I've quoted the above that was posted by @Happilyretired for your benefit @320320.

It quite clearly says the payments would stop once vacancies reached the required level, which they clearly have which is why the agreement has ended. But the RMT in their own petulant little huff have decided to go back on the agreement and thus wiped out about 95% of ScotRails Sunday services leaving most of the country without a rail service. I don't know about you but to me that's enough justification for having a pop at them!

What 'quite clearly says' that, a happily retired guy on the internet?
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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The fact that a dispute that has been running this long gets a majority mandate to continue action demonstrates there are deep rooted issues at play here. I don't pretend to understand the issues but what i do know is the railway needs to run 7 days a week if its is to be of any use to attracting and retaining passengers. We need GBR to engage with unions and agree an across the industry set of terms and conditions that deliver this outcome which will cost more in basic salaries but there is enormous costs in rest day working and inefficient rosters that can balance it along with growing revenue when people see the railway can offer a reliable service.
 

Kite159

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The fact that a dispute that has been running this long gets a majority mandate to continue action demonstrates there are deep rooted issues at play here. I don't pretend to understand the issues but what i do know is the railway needs to run 7 days a week if its is to be of any use to attracting and retaining passengers. We need GBR to engage with unions and agree an across the industry set of terms and conditions that deliver this outcome which will cost more in basic salaries but there is enormous costs in rest day working and inefficient rosters that can balance it along with growing revenue when people see the railway can offer a reliable service.

Beware what to wish for. GBR could decide to go down the nuclear option and impose new contracts on everybody who wishes to carry on working to be more uniform across the country.
 

Cardiff123

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Beware what to wish for. GBR could decide to go down the nuclear option and impose new contracts on everybody who wishes to carry on working to be more uniform across the country.
That 'country' being England, as the Scottish and Welsh governments are retaining control of their own devolved railway operations, so anything GBR decides for working patterns in England would not make any difference in a dispute like this in Scotland.
 

snookertam

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You mean Abellio, not ScotRail, ScotRail is just a brand and nothing else. Abellio probably aren't giving a toss seeing as they'll not be running the franchise for much longer.
ScotRail is the name of the franchise, and the staff there all work for ‘Abellio ScotRail’. That is with whom the RMT are in dispute. It’s not just a marketing exercise.
 

InOban

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You’ve been told already that the vacancies haven’t been filled. There are trains operating every day that have no TEs on board or have management grades covering them.

You can have a pop at them all you like but you’ll find it might get a whole lot worse if the drivers end up in dispute. Then you can complain about them and moan about how you’d do RDW for single time never mind £375 or £431 if you’re covering another depots work.
It's quite possible that they have recruited and trained enough staff, but a lot of them are unwell or isolating. AIR that their rosters would normally be filled by staff called in from their rest days?
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Beware what to wish for. GBR could decide to go down the nuclear option and impose new contracts on everybody who wishes to carry on working to be more uniform across the country.
There will undoubtedly be some pain involved in getting things normalised across the passenger TOCs but if its not dealt with it will become a long running sore so better to engage with the unions and bring them along.

My take is Haines/Hendy/Hymes are currently working up a strawman in the background of how things might look to get the transport politicians onboard so they can crack on and drive a common vision forward.
 

Davester50

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This dispute just shows why despite all the We'd love to renationalise but we can't chat from the Scottish Government was hollow.
They are quite happy to offshore labour disputes to a third party, Abellio in this case.
Will be interesting if this drags on until TS are in full (visible) control, and what happens then.
 

Carntyne

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You’ve been told already that the vacancies haven’t been filled. There are trains operating every day that have no TEs on board or have management grades covering them.

You can have a pop at them all you like but you’ll find it might get a whole lot worse if the drivers end up in dispute. Then you can complain about them and moan about how you’d do RDW for single time never mind £375 or £431 if you’re covering another depots work.
Why hasn't the RMT stated the vacancies haven't been filled if that's the reason for the strike?
 

320320

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It's quite possible that they have recruited and trained enough staff, but a lot of them are unwell or isolating. AMR that their rosters would normally be filled by staff called in from their rest days?
There are still vacancies on the TE rosters that I’ve seen. Shortages were always covered by RDW until scotrail removed the RDW enhancement.
Why hasn't the RMT stated the vacancies haven't been filled if that's the reason for the strike?
As far as I remember the ballot was called because scotrail refused to give RMT members a pay rise for 2020 and removed the RDW enhancement and simply said there was no money for it and the RMT were rightly upset about it when there was money to continue paying drivers the enhancement. They claimed that the Scottish government/transport Scotland instructed that any pay increases must be self funded by the employees.

A poster on here claimed that the RDW enhancement was removed because all of the vacancies were filled but I’ve never heard this officially from either scotrail or the RMT.

Im happy to be corrected if anyone can provide evidence of that reasoning from either scotrail or the RMT, but I think it’s simply that scotrail, SG/transport Scotland just don’t want to pay them the enhancement.
 
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You’ve been told already that the vacancies haven’t been filled. There are trains operating every day that have no TEs on board or have management grades covering them.

You can have a pop at them all you like but you’ll find it might get a whole lot worse if the drivers end up in dispute. Then you can complain about them and moan about how you’d do RDW for single time never mind £375 or £431 if you’re covering another depots work.
The vacancies which contributor 320320 refers to on more than one occasion are for TEs when this dispute started with conductors, the TEs then voting to take action at a later date. AFAIK conductor numbers are at the required level but don't know about TEs. There will always be a requirement for RDW to cover unexpected sickness etc in all grades. As 320320 will confirm it is not that many years ago that drivers' overtime was at the basic rate with no enhancement. This was regardless of whether the work covered was for their own depot or another.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

The RMT/staff side didn't end the deal, how can 320320 answer on behalf of management? :lol: Your position seems to one of disbelief that management could have done something not in keeping with a deal?

As I've said before, disputes like this often come down to interpretation of poorly conceived/written deals. The operator don't seem to have been very forthcoming with pushing its side of the argument with evidence, which they surely could if it were an open and shut case.



What 'quite clearly says' that, a happily retired guy on the internet?
Happily retired but still with a finger hovering on the pulse

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Apparently scotrail have offered the conductors and TEs a £300 payment to cancel the strike for 2weeks to cover COP26 and then go back to striking They want them to work rest days and sundays during this 2weeks but I don’t know if those days will be paid at the old enhanced rates or normal time.

What a nerve
The £300 has been rejected

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

This dispute just shows why despite all the We'd love to renationalise but we can't chat from the Scottish Government was hollow.
They are quite happy to offshore labour disputes to a third party, Abellio in this case.
Will be interesting if this drags on until TS are in full (visible) control, and what happens then.
If anyone ever thought that Abellio were bad, just wait till TS/SG take over. Their experience in dealing with Prestwick Apt. and CMAL will definitely stand them in good stead. Do the rose tinted spectacle wearers really thing that the nationalised BR was that good. And do the Rail Unions think SG. will roll over to their demands? let's wait and see.
 
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Goldfish62

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Do the rose tinted spectacle wearers really thing that the nationalised BR was that good. And do the Rail Unions think SG. will roll over to their demands? let's wait and see.
I imagine a lot of the people hankering for BR weren't actually around in those days. The unions were just as unhappy back then are they are today. The one difference was that BR tended to deal with disputes quite ruthlessly, hence why some of the most significant changes in working practices happened under BR, not post-privatisation.
 

Journeyman

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I imagine a lot of the people hankering for BR weren't actually around in those days. The unions were just as unhappy back then are they are today. The one difference was that BR tended to deal with disputes quite ruthlessly, hence why some of the most significant changes in working practices happened under BR, not post-privatisation.
This is why it seems so strange that the unions are hankering after the "good old days" of a nationalised railway. Working pay and conditions under BR were pretty lousy. One of the main reasons the railway pays so generously now is that the unions have managed to haggle separately with smaller operators exposed to higher commercial risk. It's one of the most significant unintended consequences of privatisation - it gave the unions more clout.
 

Starmill

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Beware what to wish for. GBR could decide to go down the nuclear option and impose new contracts on everybody who wishes to carry on working to be more uniform across the country.
I imagine that an offer of a standard contract with pay bands will be the only solution eventually yes, including a replacement pension scheme with no further contributions to the railway pension scheme, and overtime at 1x rate in all cases in order to prevent disputes such as the current one. GBR wouldn't be imposing it on staff at ScotRail, Transport for Wales etc. but they may agree a new common framework. It would finally sweep away the whole mess of different terms and conditions and end poaching.
 

the sniper

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Happily retired but still with a finger hovering on the pulse

Just to be clear, that wasn't intended as in insult, just raising a note of caution on using the comments of any anonymous person on the internet as a seemingly definitive source.
 

ld0595

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Didn't see a new thread here so I thought here was the best place for this. Looks like engineers have now voted for strike action over pay and working conditions. 78% balloted voted for action which will take place in mid September.

 

Journeyman

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158801

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With Maintenance staff going on strike do you envisage mass cancellations or ad-hoc disruption (one or two cancellations here and there)
 

alangla

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Anyone know when the TSSA are going out? I think they voted for strike action last month over covering for striking TEs
 

Journeyman

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Watch talk of independence ramp up as the SNP desperately try to stop people noticing how useless the rail network is at the moment.
 
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