ScotRail Industrial Relations issues (including conductor strike action)

[the sniper]

Not voting could have been an attempt to reduce the participation to a level where the result would have been invalid. I'd certainly have been tempted to do that.

Or they could have just voted against it if that was the intention...

 

[LowLevel]

Or they could have just voted against it if that was the intention...

It can be more effective if you want to derail a ballot which is likely to have a low turnout but of that lot a solid yes vote by not voting at all - you've got no chance of overturning the yes vote but you might invalidate the ballot.

 

[alf]

An expansion of DOO might indeed be the ultimate result of the dispute. But it's not certainly not an overnight process. Most crucially of all, it would require ASLEF agreement - for which they would no doubt want a significant pay rise, if they're at all interested.

But I thought that on most Scotrail trains drivers check, release & shut the doors & have done so for a very long time.

So what would the extra “Significant pay rise” be for that Watershed says ASLEF would demand for continuing to operate DOO trains as Driver Only Operation trains?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thanks. The short version I read didn't include that important data. What was the % support last time?

Full results are on the RMT website.

This time round:

Turnout: 477/621 (76.8%)
Yes to strike action: 384 (61.8% of those eligible to vote, 80.5% of those who voted)
No to strike action: 93 (15%/19.5%)
Yes to action short of a strike: 429 (69.1%/89.9%)
No to action short of a strike: 48 (7.7%/10.1%)

Previous ballot:

Turnout: 472/631 (74.8%)
Yes to strike action: 353 (55.9%/74.8%)
No to strike action: 117 (18.5%/24.8%)
Spoiled/invalid: 2 (0.3%/0.4%)
Yes to action short of a strike: 403 (63.9%/85.4%)
No to action short of a strike: 68 (10.8%/14.4%)
Spoiled/invalid: 1 (0.2%/0.2%)

So support for action was actually higher this time round.

 

[Falcon1200]

But I thought that on most Scotrail trains drivers check, release & shut the doors & have done so for a very long time.

No, DOO only applies on electrified suburban routes around Glasgow, the furthest extremities being Edinburgh (via Bathgate only), Carstairs and Ayr. No diesel services are DOO, nor are the more recently electrified routes, eg the E&G.

 

[STINT47]

I cannot see how this will end as no party has an incentive to resolve it in the short term Abellio are leaving in a few months, the Scotish government saves money by not running trains and the conductors get every Sunday off. It's a win all round except for the passengers but they're not really all that important.

In the long term one side will loose out and with the Scotish goverment consulting on permanent cuts to services post covid I fear it may be RMT members, butperhaps the staff see it another way?

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, they are required to work some Sundays, typically around one in three, in what some call compulsory overtime. Sunday is not classed as part of the working week. Conductors can request not to be booked for one of those shifts but that will only be granted if someone else can be found to cover it. Sundays are paid as overtime for the hours they work, with a minimum payment of 8 hours. They are not required to undertake overtime on any other day of the week although many volunteer to do so.

While the numbers of conductors was below that required to operate without rest day working an extra incentive overtime payment was agreed. This would stop when the numbers reached the required level, which it now has. RMT agreed to this but, because the drivers are still getting it, RMT have changed their mind and feel their conductors and ticket examiners are being treated unfairly, hence the dispute.

Hope this helps

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2021 ==


I would hardly call less than two thirds a sold yes. I noted that the RMT press release focussed on the 80% yes vote ( of those who voted) rather the statistic above. I think we can safely assume that those who did not vote are less than enthusiastic about continuing this dispute

it's far, far in excess of the threshold we use to decide governments, make massive changes to the status of the nation, etc.

 

[alf]

But government ballots are not a two horse race.
Citizens can & do vote for 3 or 4 candidates - diluting the votes the winner gets.
Whereas strike ballots are usually a 2 horse race so there is obviously a higher % vote for the winner.

 

[John R]

But government ballots are not a two horse race.
Citizens can & do vote for 3 or 4 candidates - diluting the votes the winner gets.
Whereas strike ballots are usually a 2 horse race so there is obviously a higher % vote for the winner.

True for elections, but there have been two very high profile referenda in the last few years where there was a choice of two.

 

[320320]

Apparently scotrail have offered the conductors and TEs a £300 payment to cancel the strike for 2weeks to cover COP26 and then go back to striking They want them to work rest days and sundays during this 2weeks but I don’t know if those days will be paid at the old enhanced rates or normal time.

What a nerve

 

[GALLANTON]

Apparently scotrail have offered the conductors and TEs a £300 payment to cancel the strike for 2weeks to cover COP26 and then go back to striking They want them to work rest days and sundays during this 2weeks but I don’t know if those days will be paid at the old enhanced rates or normal time.

What a nerve

They should be back working! The RMT agreed to a deal and then went back on the agreement! The only people to blame here are the RMT for being petulant.

 

[alangla]

Apparently scotrail have offered the conductors and TEs a £300 payment to cancel the strike for 2weeks to cover COP26 and then go back to striking They want them to work rest days and sundays during this 2weeks but I don’t know if those days will be paid at the old enhanced rates or normal time.

What a nerve

If this is true then it’s absolutely pathetic. Shows exactly the contempt that ScotRail and Transport Scotland/whoever has driven this politically has for the fare paying customers.

 

[Goldfish62]

If this is true then it’s absolutely pathetic. Shows exactly the contempt that ScotRail and Transport Scotland/whoever has driven this politically has for the fare paying customers.

It also shows that they have no intention of giving in to the RMT's demands. Maybe they really are happy with a permanent six-day railway in Scotland, but that doesn't square with their purported green credentials.

 

[XAM2175]

If this is true then it’s absolutely pathetic. Shows exactly the contempt that ScotRail and Transport Scotland/whoever has driven this politically has for the fare paying customers.

Maybe they really are happy with a permanent six-day railway in Scotland, but that doesn't square with their purported green credentials.

Personally, as a public transport advocate with faint 'green' pretentions, I'm not at all satisfied with only six-day service. However, as a Scottish taxpayer, I'm also not particularly satisfied with the idea that the government cave in to the RMT's apparently unreasonable demands.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I hope the staff vote against this. Attendees at the conference should see what a state of chaos the Scottish government have let our railways descend into complete with a 6 day service and a death of a thousand cuts timetable to come next spring. All the delegates can then have great fun pissing themselves laughing at what a shambles the whole thing has led to

 

[alangla]

It also shows that they have no intention of giving in to the RMT's demands. Maybe they really are happy with a permanent six-day railway in Scotland, but that doesn't square with their purported green credentials.

It’s more that the 6 day railway is probably saving a fortune, but that they’re going to pretend everything is hunky dory and functioning properly in front of the UN and their pals. It also makes the assumption that the RMT will take their shilling & make the issue go away for a couple of weeks. If the RMT actually want to win this dispute then surely the correct action is to escalate it to all-out action over that fortnight & picket the SECC into the bargain.

 

[Carntyne]

Incredible that they're being offered a bonus after reneging on the RDW agreement they made with ScotRail and decimating Sunday services for months.

 

[GALLANTON]

I hope the staff vote against this. Attendees at the conference should see what a state of chaos the Scottish government have let our railways descend into complete with a 6 day service and a death of a thousand cuts timetable to come next spring. All the delegates can then have great fun pissing themselves laughing at what a shambles the whole thing has led to

The RMT is to blame for the current 6-day service, not the Government! If the RMT hadn't spat the dummy out and went back on a deal that they agreed to then we'd still be on a 7-day service. It's as simple as that!

 

[Carlisle]

I hope the staff vote against this. Attendees at the conference should see what a state of chaos the Scottish government have let our railways descend into

The Scottish government in recent years have attempted to appease the RMT whenever possible but such a short sighted strategy was always likely to unravel eventually

 

[Blindtraveler]

Which is why I made my original comment. I am no expert just a passenger but I could see where this was going some years back and knew that eventually the situation would come back to bite us

 

[320320]

They should be back working! The RMT agreed to a deal and then went back on the agreement! The only people to blame here are the RMT for being petulant.

If that’s true, and scotrail no longer require conductors and TEs to work rest days to fulfill the service then why don’t they just sanction a rest day working agreement paid at an enhanced rate and kill the strike stone dead?

They would never have to pay a penny in rest day working as they’ve filled all the vacancies and all training is complete, or so they say.

I can’t imagine why there are so many jobs that have to be covered by management grades if scotrail have employed enough staff to fulfill the roster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

The RMT is to blame for the current 6-day service, not the Government! If the RMT hadn't spat the dummy out and went back on a deal that they agreed to then we'd still be on a 7-day service. It's as simple as that!

What part of the deal is it that RMT are saying hasn’t been full filled?

 

[GALLANTON]

If that’s true, and scotrail no longer require conductors and TEs to work rest days to fulfill the service then why don’t they just sanction a rest day working agreement paid at an enhanced rate and kill the strike stone dead?

They would never have to pay a penny in rest day working as they’ve filled all the vacancies and all training is complete, or so they say.

I can’t imagine why there are so many jobs that have to be covered by management grades if scotrail have employed enough staff to fulfill the roster.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==


What part of the deal is it that RMT are saying hasn’t been full filled?

I never said anything hasn't been fulfilled. It's been stated many times in this thread why this whole farce is happening. The RMT agreed to a deal and have now decided not to honour the agreement with the result being a very limited Sunday service.

 

[320320]

I never said anything hasn't been fulfilled. It's been stated many times in this thread why this whole farce is happening. The RMT agreed to a deal and have now decided not to honour the agreement with the result being a very limited Sunday service.

Well what part of the agreement do you think is being breached?

 

[GALLANTON]

Well what part of the agreement do you think is being breached?

The whole thing! It's really not hard to work it out if you read through the topic.

 

[mcmad]

I never said anything hasn't been fulfilled. It's been stated many times in this thread why this whole farce is happening. The RMT agreed to a deal and have now decided not to honour the agreement with the result being a very limited Sunday service.

If that was true then surely Scotrail would have gone to court long before now to have the strike declared illegal?

Think there is far more to this than the simplistic RMT bad line being peddled.

 

[GALLANTON]

If that was true then surely Scotrail would have gone to court long before now to have the strike declared illegal?

Think there is far more to this than the simplistic RMT bad line being peddled.

You mean Abellio, not ScotRail, ScotRail is just a brand and nothing else. Abellio probably aren't giving a toss seeing as they'll not be running the franchise for much longer.

 

[320320]

The whole thing! It's really not hard to work it out if you read through the topic.

You don’t know what you’re talking about. The agreement was for enhancement until all vacancies were filled and training complete. This hasn’t happened, but you’d rather continue your pathetic attempts at staff bashing because you’re jealous they’re paid more than you rather than any concern about service levels.

 

[GALLANTON]

You don’t know what you’re talking about. The agreement was for enhancement until all vacancies were filled and training complete. This hasn’t happened, but you’d rather continue your pathetic attempts at staff bashing because you’re jealous they’re paid more than you rather than any concern about service levels.

Eh?! Where have I said I'm jealous that they're paid more than me? I'm annoyed at not being able to do very much on a Sunday due to a lack of trains and at the moment, a lack of a bus service also.

 

[320320]

The RMT needs to realize that there's plenty of people out there who have lost jobs due to the pandemic and would more than likely jump at the chance of getting a job with Scotrail on the pre-deal rates. IIRC Scotrail guards get over £30k per year and I personally would quite happily work Sundays for a normal time at that rate.

Jealousy right here.

The whole thing! It's really not hard to work it out if you read through the topic.

Eh?! Where have I said I'm jealous that they're paid more than me? Go on, tell me. From what I've read(which you clearly can't be bothered to do) in this topic all vacancies HAVE been filled and training HAS been completed thus the agreement has ended. But will the RMT accept this, no, they still want the extra payments for staff "because the drivers are still getting it". Clearly the RMT don't realise that it takes a lot longer to train a driver than a guard/conductor.

They vacancies HAVEN‘T been filled. I drive trains on a daily basis with no TE on board because the jobs are uncovered. You’re just desperate to jump on any opportunity to complain about railway staff and moan about how you’d do the job for less.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Aug 2021 ==

If that was true then surely Scotrail would have gone to court long before now to have the strike declared illegal?

Think there is far more to this than the simplistic RMT bad line being peddled.

If the vacancies had all been filled and there was no requirement for RDW then scotrail could simply offer an enhanced rate for RDW/OT safe in the knowledge they’d never have to pay a penny and the strike would be ended immediately.

I wonder why they haven’t done that already

 

[GALLANTON]

Jealousy right here.



They vacancies HAVEN‘T been filled. I drive trains on a daily basis with no TE on board because the jobs are uncovered. You’re just desperate to jump on any opportunity to complain about railway staff and moan about how you’d do the job for less.

Ok then, if you say so. I was merely pointing out a fact that there ARE plenty of people out there who have lost jobs due to the pandemic and would jump at the chance at a 30k per year job. I'm not one of them as I'm quite happy with where I work and what I do, so jealous I aint.

If the vacancies haven't been filled then why has the agreement ended then? Are you telling me if you were stuck at home on a Sunday with no trains running you'd not say anything? I doubt it!