Paddington to Torquay - Why do tickets say change at Exeter

[Essexman]

I often travel from Paddington to Torquay and if not a direct train the tickets / reservations usually say change at Exeter not Newton Abbot. I always carry on to Newton Abbot (although presumably not strictly permitted if an Advance ticket), but many people won’t do this and will change from an Intercity (potentially giving up a good seat) to local train sooner than necessary.

There is no saving in time as it’s the same train at Newton Abbot and there is always cross platform interchange at Newton Abbot so does anyone know why tickets say change at Exeter?

The only advantage I can think off is less time to wait on platform if it’s cold as the local train takes longer to Newton Abbot.

 

[Class800]

This is an interesting one. Both stations as classed as C1 stations, so this would not explain it, but clearly Exeter has been given interchange priority on this route. Some booking engines allow you to specify a connecting point such as Trainsplit but many don't.

 

[Kilopylae]

Perhaps there is sufficiently more Exeter–Plymouth/Cornwall traffic than Exeter–Torbay traffic that they want to free up seats on the former?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Could it be to do with revenue attribution? Is there any risk of missing the connection at Exeter or at Newton Abbot?

 

[The exile]

Is the change suggested at the first possible opportunity? What does it suggest in the other direction?

 

[Bikeman78]

Is the change suggested at the first possible opportunity? What does it suggest in the other direction?

I usually adopt the opposite approach, namely carry on as far as possible on the first train. People travelling from Paddington to Carmarthen are often advised to change at Newport rather than Swansea. This means the 9/10 car train trundles west half empty whilst the 2/3 car DMU is wedged. Also if the train from Manchester is late and gets restarted on time at Cardiff with another unit then it ends rather badly for the people stuck at Newport.

 

[alistairlees]

Is the change suggested at the first possible opportunity?

This is the correct answer. Journey planners have only the public timetable, the minimum interchange time and the significance of the station to go on. There is no further information. Where there are two or more stations where a change of train (or bus or whatever) could validly take place, then the journey planner must choose. Some choose the first opportunity; others the last. Some take interchange location significance into account; some don’t. Personally I prefer the approach of furthest most significant, as this is most likely to get the customer closest to their destination without stranding them somewhere with no facilities.

 

[Haywain]

This is the correct answer. Journey planners have only the public timetable, the minimum interchange time and the significance of the station to go on. There is no further information. Where there are two or more stations where a change of train (or bus or whatever) could validly take place, then the journey planner must choose. Some choose the first opportunity; others the last. Some take interchange location significance into account; some don’t. Personally I prefer the approach of furthest most significant, as this is most likely to get the customer closest to their destination without stranding them somewhere with no facilities.

I'm not certain but I think that the time between trains is also a consideration in some journey planners.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Is the change suggested at the first possible opportunity? What does it suggest in the other direction?

You miss the XC to Leeds/Edinburgh.

Edit; if you're travelling from Torquay and don't change at Newton Abbott.

 

[Gloster]

Could it also be a hangover from the days, long gone, when some of the Plymouth or Cornwall trains missed Newton Abbot, but just about everything stopped at Exeter? You avoided the risk of Torre, Torquay and Paignton passengers ending up in Totnes or Plymouth.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Journey planners have only the public timetable, the minimum interchange time and the significance of the station to go on. There is no further information.

This is not the full story! At a minimum there is also the facilities available on the train, the length of the interchange, whether you are changing to/from a train or a bus, whether the train you are changing to is at its origin station (thus better likelihood of getting a seat compared to changing to it later in its journey). For example, all else being equal, the FastJP journey planner will keep you longer on the train that has better facilities and will offer a change at Newton Abbott over Exeter St Davids, if the price is the same. To answer the OP - it is not clear-cut; it depends on which website/journey planner you use.

 

[richw]

What are the connection times at the two stations? I suspect this may contribute, I’m guessing the connection at Newton abbot will be longer than Exeter, so the time hanging about Exeter will be shorter so your on a train for more time?

 

[Paul Kelly]

I’m guessing the connection at Newton abbot will be longer than Exeter, so the time hanging about Exeter will be shorter so your on a train for more time?

That could well be seen as a negative point though? Isn't it better to have longer connection times to mitigate against potential delays?

 

[richw]

That could well be seen as a negative point though? Isn't it better to have longer connection times to mitigate against potential delays?

Depends how long they are. If they become too long the system won’t recognise it as a connection too. Presumably the express leaves before the Torbay stopper, and then time it stops Dawlish and Teignmouth will make it even longer at Newton Abbot

 

[Paul Kelly]

If they become too long the system won’t recognise it as a connection too.

As I noted above there is no such thing as "the" system here. All journey planners are programmed differently. A decent journey planner will consider all possible connections that allow you to arrive at the same time, although some may have a more simple algorithm that simply forces the change at the earliest or latest opportunity.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Aug 2021 ==

Some take interchange location significance into account; some don’t.

I think that should cause an accreditation failure for any retail systems that use that journey planner? As it would mean they're not following the RDG journey planner code of practice.

 

[alistairlees]

This is not the full story! At a minimum there is also the facilities available on the train, the length of the interchange, whether you are changing to/from a train or a bus, whether the train you are changing to is at its origin station (thus better likelihood of getting a seat compared to changing to it later in its journey). For example, all else being equal, the FastJP journey planner will keep you longer on the train that has better facilities and will offer a change at Newton Abbott over Exeter St Davids, if the price is the same. To answer the OP - it is not clear-cut; it depends on which website/journey planner you use.

Well, the ‘length of the interchange’ is, of course, a function of the public timetable. But yes, there are other on-train attributes, like catering and the availability (or otherwise) of (real) reservations. Though, in admission, I had not really considered whether the train was starting from its origin or not. As you say, mode is also important; operator could also be considered, especially when it comes to availability of fares. Oh, and availability of 1st class too - how annoying would it be to be made to travel in standard class instead of 1st class when you had a 1st class ticket - which is what would happen when the GWR website kicks you off a long distance train from Paddington to Penzance at Exeter St David’s instead of Newton Abbot, only to then travel in standard class from Exeter to Torquay.

This does all make for a potentially complex set of rules…

 

[Kite159]

Well, the ‘length of the interchange’ is, of course, a function of the public timetable. But yes, there are other on-train attributes, like catering and the availability (or otherwise) of (real) reservations. Though, in admission, I had not really considered whether the train was starting from its origin or not. As you say, mode is also important; operator could also be considered, especially when it comes to availability of fares. Oh, and availability of 1st class too - how annoying would it be to be made to travel in standard class instead of 1st class when you had a 1st class ticket - which is what would happen when the GWR website kicks you off a long distance train from Paddington to Penzance at Exeter St David’s instead of Newton Abbot, only to then travel in standard class from Exeter to Torquay.

This does all make for a potentially complex set of rules…

Especially when you get given a 3+2 seated 166 (or get unlucky with a 3+2 seated 150) instead of the 2+1 seating on a IET.

 

[londonbridge]

On one of my trips to Eastleigh I had a SWR advance with an itinerary of changing at Basingstoke. Both trains were calling at Winchester so if I hadn’t been on an advance I would have just stayed on the first train for another stop.

 

[Class800]

Basingstoke is a category B station and Winchester category C1. This may give it precedence.

 

[Snow1964]

Basingstoke is a category B station and Winchester category C1. This may give it precedence.

But this causes a different problem, at Winchester will be same platform (unless bi directional signalling in in use), whereas changing at Basingstoke might mean going to another platform via the subway.

Is there any booking engine that prioritises same or cross platform connections over size of station where there is a choice of places to change?

 

[Essexman]

The interchange at Newton Abbot is slightly longer as the local trains take longer from Exeter.

Journeys in return direction also say change at Exeter.

First Class tickets also say change at Exeter. Surely the booking engine should be programmed to take account of First Class availability.

It’s not just GWR. Cross Country also say change at Exeter.

It‘s relatively recent - last few years. Always used to say change at Newton Abbot.

 

[alistairlees]

But this causes a different problem, at Winchester will be same platform (unless bi directional signalling in in use), whereas changing at Basingstoke might mean going to another platform via the subway.

Is there any booking engine that prioritises same or cross platform connections over size of station where there is a choice of places to change?

This information (as to whether a planned change is cross-platform / on the level or not) is not in the data. So I don't think any booking engine attempts to do it. It's a good idea though, although there does need to be the caveat that platforms do get changed from the plan. CrossCountry recommends changes at Leamington / Derby / Cheltenham / Wolverhampton instead of Birmingham New Street, but I don't know if their booking engnie actually does this.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Aug 2021 ==

Basingstoke is a category B station and Winchester category C1. This may give it precedence.

The Network Rail categories are not what's in the timetable data. Instead it's whether a station is Large, Medium, Small or none of these for interchange purposes. Both Basingstoke and Winchester are "Medium".

 

[Paul Kelly]

Journeys in return direction also say change at Exeter.

Sorry to keep repeating myself but you can't just make blanket statements like this! It depends on the journey planner, how it has been programmed, and how much thought the programmers put into optimising decisions like this.

For example, TrainSplit (which uses the FastJP journey planner) always offers the change at Newton Abbot in both directions, if it is the same price.

 

[Essexman]

Sorry to keep repeating myself but you can't just make blanket statements like this! It depends on the journey planner, how it has been programmed, and how much thought the programmers put into optimising decisions like this.

For example, TrainSplit (which uses the FastJP journey planner) always offers the change at Newton Abbot in both directions, if it is the same price.

Sorry. I normally book with the TOC I'm using; GWR or Cross Country in this case.

 

[ChrisC]

This information (as to whether a planned change is cross-platform / on the level or not) is not in the data. So I don't think any booking engine attempts to do it. It's a good idea though, although there does need to be the caveat that platforms do get changed from the plan. CrossCountry recommends changes at Leamington / Derby / Cheltenham / Wolverhampton instead of Birmingham New Street, but I don't know if their booking engnie actually does this.

CrossCountry may recommend this but I’m not sure that it always works out that way. When travelling from Nottingham to the South West I always change at Derby. It is often very difficult to get the booking engines to come up with this as they very regularly come up with a change at Birmingham New Street instead. Going north from Nottingham it was always very easy to make a same platform change of train at Chesterfield but now that XC are not not stopping at Chesterfield a less easy change at Sheffield is now required.

 

[yorkie]

Sorry. I normally book with the TOC I'm using; GWR or Cross Country in this case.

I would use a different provider; one that either offers you the change at Newton Abbot or lets you specify where you change trains, as others have said above.

I wouldn't continue to choose to be issued with itineraries that I had no intention of following, even if the difference is only a minor one, as it could cause you problems one day.

 

[Class800]

Yorkie is absolutely right. Another potentially useful point from my experience is if there is a delay on a train on an advance ticket and it causes a missed connection, in this area of the country where there are multiple potential change points, sometimes the staff member endorsing the ticket for a different train will ask 'is there a particular reason why you wish to change at X station?'. If no, then can just say as such and they'd work it what works best. E.g. I once had an advance Cranbrook, Exeter St Davids, Cheltenham Spa, University. The connection at Exeter St Davids was missed due to a tight connection which complied with minimum connection time but not with much to spare. I was asked would I mind changing at Birmingham New Street instead, as I would arrive half an hour earlier than if I stuck to Cheltenham.