Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[Domh245]

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not say that EV drivers will not own smartphones. I say that either you have to put the same multiple charging apps on the smartphone of each driver of each EV, or you have to get a cheap phone to keep with the EV just for the charging apps. Maybe you do not consider that a barrier but many already do not keep the system and all apps on their one phone up to date.

Yes, I think I did partially misunderstand your original post in that case. I don't fully agree though, you don't have to have full complement of apps on the phones of all drivers of a given EV, you could split it (as chargers become more common, it becomes easier to go "oh I've only got BP's app, so we'll go the nearest BP rather than shell"), or just rely on the fact that in many cases, cars will still go everywhere with one certain person on board and use their phone as the designated app device (in my case, my mum's phone is the one with all the apps for charging the PHEV when out and about, as she's with it on about 99% of all journeys when using a public charger). Or you could just install the apps & sign up as necessary, it's not exactly a great hardship in most cases

I'd also quibble with the last sentence around keeping systems & apps up to date - most people will leave it on auto-update which will cover most cases! I'd also be shocked if charging points didn't have some limited degree of backwards compatibility to the last few versions of apps

If the EV filling station operators can standardize and get it down to one app then that will be better, but why can't they go the whole hog and standardize on pay-at-station card payments like ICE filling stations without punishment like a 6p/kWh surcharge for non-app payments I've seen from one operator? What do that apps do that is worth 6p/kWh to the station operator? Bitcoin mining?

That I fully agree with!

 

[AM9]

I will be driving an ICE car until a manufacturer can produce a car that is engaging to drive, styled well and reasonably affordable.

Even if the manufacturers don't produce a car that in your opinion is 'engaging to drive, styled well and reasonably affordable' the squeeze on remaining IC drivers will tighten pretty quickly, and the remaining roadworthy IC cars will dwindle so your image of an ideal vehicle may need to be modified in the light of reality.

 

[DustyBin]

Even if the manufacturers don't produce a car that in your opinion is 'engaging to drive, styled well and reasonably affordable' the squeeze on remaining IC drivers will tighten pretty quickly, and the remaining roadworthy IC cars will dwindle so your image of an ideal vehicle may need to be modified in the light of reality.

Whilst the move to EVs is definitely happening, I wouldn’t be so confident that IC cars will become unviable. I think I posted the link here a while back but Toyota seem confident they’ll be with us for the foreseeable and have no intention of going all electric. Personally I’d be happy with an interesting and engaging EV as my daily transport as long as I can enjoy my various petrol engined cars in my leisure time. I don’t think that’s unreasonable really.

 

[ash39]

That's very true, but given they are set to be on sale for another 9 years I think we're some way off ICE cars being priced off the road.

Manufacturers will make electric cars that appeal to driving enthusiasts. It might just take some time to get there. The Porsche Taycan already shows it's possible, just needs to be on a more accessible level.

 

[apk55]

I do wonder on weather the electricity supply network can cope.

One of my neighbors has decided to an electric car charger fitted and it was found out that the supply cable to his house was inadequate. What was done on the estate (built in the 70s) is that a single cable was used to supply two halves of a semi rated at about 100A and probably short time at that. While it might be able to take a bit more short time is if both neighbors got high powered car chargers (which will impose a long term load) the cable could burn out. As a result the feeder cable to his house has been replaced digging up his drive to do so. Multiply this by several million houses and there is a lot of work to be done. And the cables in the street will probably not be up to the job as well as the sub station at the end of road - again a massive task that will take many years to complete.

Motorway service stations and other areas where there are lots of chargers will probably need grid level supply as the power demand might easily exceed 10MW.

 

[87 027]

That's very true, but given they are set to be on sale for another 9 years I think we're some way off ICE cars being priced off the road.

Yes, and those that are sold new up until then will have maybe 10 years useful life at least.

Also don't forget the current sales of hybrids, mild hybrids and plug-in hybrids which still need traditional fuel, so filling stations aren't going to become extinct any time soon.

Mention has been made of Rugby Services on the M6. This is a brand new service area. It hasn't so far as I can tell had any particular effect on its neighbours (Corley and Watford Gap) whose charging stations based on my most recent visits are still a rather small number in a corner of the car park.

Also based on my recent holiday in the west country I noted the the number of chargers within a reasonable radius of my destination according to ZapMap was (a) in single digits, and further reduced by some being (b) limited to Teslas and (c) on private property such as restricted to guests of the property only. I did the entire holiday on a single tank of diesel in my car which has a range of 700-800 miles. It will be quite an adjustment to get used to the brave new world that awaits!

 

[The Ham]

Electric vehicles still pollute. Tyre wear etc. And will the electricity they are charged with be 100% green, or should they pay for using gas or coal generation? And I assume electric vehicles will still crash, so should make a contribution for emergency services.

Coal generation is on its way out, at less than 2% this year and due to be zero soon. Gas is also reducing (more slowly) and would likely follow a similar (maybe slower) pattern to coal over the next decade.

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not say that EV drivers will not own smartphones. I say that either you have to put the same multiple charging apps on the smartphone of each driver of each EV, or you have to get a cheap phone to keep with the EV just for the charging apps. Maybe you do not consider that a barrier but many already do not keep the system and all apps on their one phone up to date.

If the EV filling station operators can standardize and get it down to one app then that will be better, but why can't they go the whole hog and standardize on pay-at-station card payments like ICE filling stations without punishment like a 6p/kWh surcharge for non-app payments I've seen from one operator? What do that apps do that is worth 6p/kWh to the station operator? Bitcoin mining?

Given that you can also pay for petrol and diesel via an app or could be argued that in time a similar statement could be true of ICE cars, especially if companies look to reduce costs for tonnes when they would otherwise have to pay extra for unsociable hours (or even that general staff costs increase by much, latest figures show wage inflation of about 8%, which although likely to be fairly short lived could have an impact on the viability of some petrol stations).

 

[Bald Rick]

Considering less wealthy people will be priced out of EV's for some time to come,

That depends on your definition of ‘less wealthy’ and ‘some time to come’. Given that you can get a new Tesla 3 - by no means the cheapest EV - for £400/month, and that ‘less wealthy’ people are not. Buying any sort of new car, I’d suggest that argument is not entirely relevant.

Yes exactly, you've just proved my point. We're not ready yet.

We don’t need to be, yet. We need to be ready in 15 years.

This "push to EV" I am sure reminds many of the similar "push to diesel" many years ago now. And look how that turned out.

Pretty well. CO2 emissions significantly down. Air quality no different than it was, and now improving rapidly since the advent of Euro 6 regulations.

The harmful effects of non-sustainable lithium mining

Which are incomparably small compared to the harmful effects of non-sustainable oil ‘mining’.

One of my neighbors has decided to an electric car charger fitted and it was found out that the supply cable to his house was inadequate. What was done on the estate (built in the 70s) is that a single cable was used to supply two halves of a semi rated at about 100A and probably short time at that. While it might be able to take a bit more short time is if both neighbors got high powered car chargers (which will impose a long term load) the cable could burn out. As a result the feeder cable to his house has been replaced digging up his drive to do so. Multiply this by several million houses and there is a lot of work to be done. And the cables in the street will probably not be up to the job as well as the sub station at the end of road - again a massive task that will take many years to complete.

Unfortunate for your neighbour. My house, built over a century ago, has a 100A supply, as does every other house on my ‘estate’. There won’t be several million houses with a shared 100A connection.

 

[BananaRepublic]

.....Motorway service stations and other areas where there are lots of chargers will probably need grid level supply as the power demand might easily exceed 10MW.

Whilst it's true that for multiple charging stations, power supply lines will have to be upgraded in some/many locations, this largely (if not entirely in some situations), offset by the use of battery storage on site.
A lot of the medium sized and larger sites already have this battery storage.

When the demand for charging is low, the battery banks charge up, as they will do overnight
It spreads the load.
This is also the national grid strategy for beefing up the grid and being more energy efficient, with huge battery farms (grid storage).
It's also the way a lot of homes will be adapted to become either less reliant on the local supply, and/or to take advantage of cheaper off-peak electricity for use at expensive peak times.


w

 

[bspahh]

The need to have a smartphone isn't a barrier to adoption. The overlap between people who drive an EV and people who don't own a smartphone will be zero.

A to B Magazine https://www.atob.org.uk/ had an article on a 240 mile round trip in an electric van conversion with an 80 mile range, with an overnight charge and 2 fast charges en route. They had a smart phone, but no mobile data, so they were relying on chargers that took a contactless card, or apps near a WiFi hotspot. It would make sense for chargers to also have a WiFi hotspot, that is free to access if you just want to use the charger.

In time, I think that instead of a service station with parking spaces with a charger, and a drive through fast food/coffee shop, you'll get charging bays where a short fast charge, food and drink are bundled together, probably with a TV showing targeted adverts. The aim will be to keep you sat in your car, rather than having you wander off, blocking access to their expensive charger whilst you have a nap.

 

[Bald Rick]

In time, I think that instead of a service station with parking spaces with a charger, and a drive through fast food/coffee shop, you'll get charging bays where a short fast charge, food and drink are bundled together, probably with a TV showing targeted adverts. The aim will be to keep you sat in your car, rather than having you wander off, blocking access to their expensive charger whilst you have a nap.

I disagree. It’s much more simple.

At service stations, within the next decade or so, a majority of parking spaces will have charge points.

 

[BananaRepublic]

While it's true there's a long way to go on introducing much cheaper, mass market EV's, there are cheaper options already available.

You can lease a brand new Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf, base Hyundai Ioniq electric from around £175 to £190 a month.

Starting from £190 to £205 pm, you can lease a Corsa-e, Mini Electric, Mazda MX-30, MG 5, MG ZS new Fiat 500 electric (not the same car as the petrol model), base level VW ID3, DS (Citroen) DS-3.

There are more models starting from around £220/230 pm, upwards.

A lot of the headline grabbing cars are very expensive to lease though. £400pm, £500pm, £600pm upwards, but so are all the luxury brand ICE cars, which sell by the bucketload.


w

 

[87 027]

Those cars are all at the smaller end of the market however. I have a diesel 7-seater and it is our one and only family car. I am not a fan of a second 'runabout' vehicle so the main car needs to suit all our use cases. I looked into the cost of letting it go and hiring a 7-seater for those occasions when a smaller car wouldn't meet our requirements, and the costs were uneconomic by quite some margin. So my personal verdict on EVs is "yes in principle, but not yet"

 

[skyhigh]

So 10 years in, they've managed to put 12 superfast chargers in one location?

No, they've done more than that. Almost every service station has fast chargers provided by Electric Highway.

Ecotricity has had a long and dubious history. Effectively Renault and Nissan funded installation of fast chargers to be operated by EH. They are (unsurprisingly) French chargers and it worked out that for any major faults engineers had to come out with parts from France. More cars with CCS connections came out, but as Nissan/Renault went towards type 2/Chademo fast charging the units weren't equipped with CCS. As time went on, the units became increasingly unreliable. The founder of Ecotricity, Dale Vince, basically completely lost interest in EVs and turned his attention to other things (he turned up to an EV event in a diesel car...).

Fast forward to this year and Gridserve - who were taking expansion seriously - took a share in the Electric Highway and promised to replace all the existing units. They've now fully bought out Electric Highway. The change in the past 2 months has been honestly transformational - as I've previously said, single units have been replaced with dual 150kW units, dual units with 4x 150kW etc and firm plans for significant expansion. Given the pace of change under Gridserve in the past few months, I definitely think they will be following through on those plans.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Commercial vehicles?
Royal Mail have ordered 3,000 electric vans and plan to go entirely electric for local fleets.
DPD have ordered 750.
UPS have a massive order for thousands, many will be in the UK.
The list is growing.
It's suddenly become a booming sector and is expected the grow significantly over the next few years.
Lots of start-up manufacturers are entering the space, as well as the established van and truck makers.


w

 

[Ediswan]

Here is a practical example of the "Electric Forecourt" GridServe are proposing for the A1(M) at Stevenage https://www.gridserve.com/stevenage/

The link says 38 fast charge bays. The planning application is reported as 41. No great difference.

The statement that "it would be unviable to run the connection under the A1(M)" is somewhat random. There are no free sites on the other side of the A1(M). The site to the SE of the roundabout is already supplied by wires strung over the road (squirrels permitting).

The eagle-eyed may spot the cycle parking. Not completely barmy. They might get locally based employees who are brave enough to use the roundabout.

 

[Meerkat]

I genuinely think it's just trendy. EVs are expensive so they have to aim at premium buyers, there are presently no budget (£10-12K new ish) EVs on the market. So if you put 16" steel wheels with plastic trims on, you won't sell them.

True, but 19” is BIG for a Golf size car. Maybe it’s deliberately to make electric cars look different?

Have a look at the Rugby services for example - a total of 24 150kW chargers with a plan for another 24 existing services to have similar provision to be installed.

Wow, 24 out of how many?

Road pricing is what will be used. There is no real doubt about that.

I think there is lot of doubt about that, but we’ve been round this several times.

I disagree. It’s much more simple.

At service stations, within the next decade or so, a majority of parking spaces will have charge points.

Really? All the spaces that are only used on summer Saturday mornings will have fast chargers?

 

[Aictos]

While it's true there's a long way to go on introducing much cheaper, mass market EV's, there are cheaper options already available.

You can lease a brand new Renault Zoe, Nissan Leaf, base Hyundai Ioniq electric from around £175 to £190 a month.

Starting from £190 to £205 pm, you can lease a Corsa-e, Mini Electric, Mazda MX-30, MG 5, MG ZS new Fiat 500 electric (not the same car as the petrol model), base level VW ID3, DS (Citroen) DS-3.

There are more models starting from around £220/230 pm, upwards.

A lot of the headline grabbing cars are very expensive to lease though. £400pm, £500pm, £600pm upwards, but so are all the luxury brand ICE cars, which sell by the bucketload.


w

Can you clarify where you can get such cheap deals on EVs, I went to one mentioned in this thread and the cheapest car was just over £399 a month.

It's fine if all the costs was included in that but look at it this way, why should I part with £400 a month to a company to supply me with a car when I can save so much up and buy my own car granted its second hand but there's some cars out there that are over 10 years old with minimum milage.

Especially as I be doing 32 miles a day, 5 days a week with no charging available at work or at home.

 

[The Ham]

Really? All the spaces that are only used on summer Saturday mornings will have fast chargers?

Short answer; no, as the post you replied to said the majority.

Longer answer; maybe, as it depends on how much costs have reduced by and how much of an impact not having suitable charging capacity has on the rest of the business. It also depends on how long chargers last for, it may well be that the older chargers (i.e. those currently being installed) are deliberately left nearer the buildings, so that those who are going to spend the most time (and therefore likely spending the most money) have the priority parking, whilst those who need the very very fast charge times (just long enough to use the loo) have to walk further from their parking spots with the latest chargers.

Whilst you may not think that chargers will see significant growth, it wasn't that long ago that there were almost no chargers at services. If EV's sales are expected to double every 20 months (and that's not including plug in hybrids), then in 5 years time that's 60% of new cars and 10% of all cars (excluding previous EV sales).

Now whilst 24 car parking spaces out of (say) 1,000 may not be so that much now, you only need to install an average of 1 space to be close to 10% of spaces in 5 years time.

However in reality chances are no more for 12 months, then 8, then no more for 12 months then 16 (using up the current passive provision), then no more for 24 months (to show for planning permission for the next batch of chargers) then 30 with provision for a further 120, then no more for 12 months then 24 (with the remaining 96 being installed over the next 2 years probably split 36/60).

That would get you to 102 spaces out of 1,000 within 5 years, however those who think that EV's aren't going to happen will point to the pathetic 8 extra chargers in the first 12 months (maybe even 18 months) and say how there's never going to be 10% of spaces in 4 years time.

The big catalyst is that consumers are much more eco conscious, and so companies have to be, with transport being such a large source of emissions that's where they are going to have to invest and invest fairly rapidly. Any company which isn't looking at net zero targets within the next 3 years (that's not achieving them, rather setting a goal of having them) is likely to find itself loosing market share.

As such, over the next 5 years it's likely that company cars will be significantly all electric (or at least plug in hybrids) which will have a significant impact on used car availablity.

In part as staff will look at their benefit in kind tax rates and see that there's scope to make savings there as well as in their fuel bills, and so may be willing to forgo a party rise in exchange for a larger payment towards the car to allow them to get an EV.

 

[DustyBin]

Manufacturers will make electric cars that appeal to driving enthusiasts. It might just take some time to get there. The Porsche Taycan already shows it's possible, just needs to be on a more accessible level.

I think they’ll get there, it may take some time though as you say. (Note to manufacturers: “appealing to driving enthusiasts” doesn’t just mean the lowest possible 0-60 time!). EV technology will be introduced into motorsport over the next few years and the developments will filter into performance road cars, exactly as we’ve seen with IC for decades now.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those cars are all at the smaller end of the market however. I have a diesel 7-seater and it is our one and only family car. I am not a fan of a second 'runabout' vehicle so the main car needs to suit all our use cases. I looked into the cost of letting it go and hiring a 7-seater for those occasions when a smaller car wouldn't meet our requirements, and the costs were uneconomic by quite some margin. So my personal verdict on EVs is "yes in principle, but not yet"

6+ person households are in a tiny minority. That doesn't make their requirements invalid, but it does show yet another RUK classic niche, which might make an EV presently non viable for those individuals but doesn't make it non viable for the majority.

The vast, vast majority of cars sold have 5 seats.

See electronic ticketing...there is a considerable view on here, just the same, that because there are people for whom only paying cash for a paper ticket is viable, that that means mobile phone based ticketing of various types should not be offered. It is odd that there is often such opposition to technology on an Internet forum!

Having said all that there are some 7 seat EVs now, such as the Citroen Berlingo/Peugeot Rifter/Vauxhall Combo (all the same car with different badges).

 

[ash39]

I think they’ll get there, it may take some time though as you say. (Note to manufacturers: “appealing to driving enthusiasts” doesn’t just mean the lowest possible 0-60 time!). EV technology will be introduced into motorsport over the next few years and the developments will filter into performance road cars, exactly as we’ve seen with IC for decades now.

You're right, for years now manufacturers have obsessed over headline power figures and 0-60 times which has made a lot of 'performance' cars a bit one-dimensional.

Alpine (Renault sub-brand) are a company to keep an eye on. They are looking to release a couple of EV's in the next few years and if they work to the same low-weight principles as they have with their A110, they could be brilliant.

 

[87 027]

That doesn't make their requirements invalid, but it does show yet another RUK classic niche

I'm not sure it's quite as niche as you make out ... I see plenty of MPVs on the road still (Ford S-Max, VW Touran, Seat Alhambra, Vauxhall Zafira etc) and indeed 10% of households on my road have one. I'm not suggesting the full capacity is needed all or even most of the time, but the point is it is needed on occasion (otherwise why buy one?) and for me at least the economics of replacing it with a smaller EV and short term hire/alternatives don't (yet) stack up. The MPV market is currently poorly served by the range of EVs available.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really? All the spaces that are only used on summer Saturday mornings will have fast chargers?

A majority, not all.

Chargers, not necessarily fast chargers

And some service station spaces are used all week round / year round !

 

[DustyBin]

You're right, for years now manufacturers have obsessed over headline power figures and 0-60 times which has made a lot of 'performance' cars a bit one-dimensional.

Alpine (Renault sub-brand) are a company to keep an eye on. They are looking to release a couple of EV's in the next few years and if they work to the same low-weight principles as they have with their A110, they could be brilliant.

The “hyper hatch” segment is terrible for it. When I bought my Focus RS the first thing my mate asked was “how much power does it have and what’s the 0-60?” to which I replied “370hp and 4.3 seconds” to which he replied “Audi RS3 is quicker than that”. Well yes it is by a fraction of a second or two, but it uses a DSG gearbox and will be on its roof in a field the first time it encounters a corner (no offence RS3 owners but they didn’t corner well!). A one trick pony as you say. To date, performance EVs are following the same formula but I’m sure they’ll evolve.

 

[BananaRepublic]

Can you clarify where you can get such cheap deals on EVs, I went to one mentioned in this thread and the cheapest car was just over £399 a month………

Shop around for the best personal leasing deals.
Lease Loco is a good place to start, as it collates leasing deals from lots of lease providers. A sort of comparison site.

Those cheapest deals are for smaller vehicles and start with the lower spec. models, with the smallest battery capacity in some cases; but they are not much more expensive than small ICE models in terms of personal leasing costs.
That’s before you factor in the lower running costs for an EV.

They’re also brand-new cars and that’s something else to consider if you’re comparing them with a 10 year old ICE car, which has absorbed a large chunk of depreciation and is getting closer to the end of its cost effective lifetime.
That 10 year old car will generally work out a lot cheaper, provided you don’t incur some serious maintenance or repair costs, or have to sell or write it off if it's no longer financially or practically useful.






w

 

[ash39]

The “hyper hatch” segment is terrible for it. When I bought my Focus RS the first thing my mate asked was “how much power does it have and what’s the 0-60?” to which I replied “370hp and 4.3 seconds” to which he replied “Audi RS3 is quicker than that”. Well yes it is by a fraction of a second or two, but it uses a DSG gearbox and will be on its roof in a field the first time it encounters a corner (no offence RS3 owners but they didn’t corner well!). A one trick pony as you say. To date, performance EVs are following the same formula but I’m sure they’ll evolve.

Danger of going way off topic here but great choice, I nearly bought a Focus RS in 2018. Kind of wish I had now as the values have stayed really strong but I got an M2 instead.

At the moment there's no real need for manufacturers to make EV's desirable on a driver-focussed level. They will sell plenty of EV's anyway because, if you can afford to get into one, they are currently attractively cheap to run. The real challenge will be once everyone is driving EV's, what's going to drive people to change cars every few years? At the moment you see hundreds of 'M-Sport' BMW's and 'AMG-line' Mercedes on the road, and what drives the sales of these? High performance halo products.

Making an electric car fast is relatively easy compared to an ICE car, it offers a lot more flexibility with packaging as batteries can be distributed a lot more creatively than great lumps of engine, gearbox and fuel tank. You could also have motors powering individual wheels so 'true' torque vectoring, which would make them engaging to drive. The possibilities are exciting, I just hope someone delivers on them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure it's quite as niche as you make out ... I see plenty of MPVs on the road still (Ford S-Max, VW Touran, Seat Alhambra, Vauxhall Zafira etc) and indeed 10% of households on my road have one. I'm not suggesting the full capacity is needed all or even most of the time, but the point is it is needed on occasion (otherwise why buy one?) and for me at least the economics of replacing it with a smaller EV and short term hire/alternatives don't (yet) stack up. The MPV market is currently poorly served by the range of EVs available.

I would say the SUV and MPV market. One reason for this is the power needed - the Berlingo etc up thread only has a 180 ish mile range, which is because that sort of vehicle tends to have the aerodynamics of a brick. They will appear in due course, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2021 ==

A majority, not all.

Chargers, not necessarily fast chargers

And some service station spaces are used all week round / year round !

Indeed, not everyone will want to plug in every time they stop for a wee, just like they don't fill up with diesel every time they pull into a shop or service area that sells it. If you are talking ranges that are about a third of a typical diesel tank, as we are, then you are going to expect to need to provide for about 3 times as many fuellings, skewed by the outrageous price of liquid fuels at service areas.

 

[BananaRepublic]

I'm not sure it's quite as niche as you make out ... I see plenty of MPVs on the road still (Ford S-Max, VW Touran, Seat Alhambra, Vauxhall Zafira etc) …….……..
……….The MPV market is currently poorly served by the range of EVs available.

The market for “new” MPV’s is almost dead.
No demand, whether powered by ICE or electric.
The market has moved on and the current trend for mid-sized to larger cars, favours Crossover and SUV type vehicles.
The role of the MPV is now served by those two styles.

Sure you’ll see plenty of old MPV‘s around. They are popular with families as a used buy and provide a lot of value and utility for the money. Still a dying breed though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the moment there's no real need for manufacturers to make EV's desirable on a driver-focussed level.

Well, there is - you can charge more for that sort of car than a base model, otherwise they wouldn't make petrol ones either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Aug 2021 ==

The market for “new” MPV’s is almost dead.
No demand, whether powered by ICE or electric.
The market has moved on and the current trend for mid-sized to larger cars, favours Crossover and SUV type vehicles.
The role of the MPV is now served by those two styles.

Sure you’ll see plenty of old MPV‘s around. They are popular with families as a used buy and provide a lot of value and utility for the money. Still a dying breed though.

I suppose to be fair most road SUVs are just an MPV with a bodykit (and MPVs are in turn just vertically stretched estates). The Kuga certainly is, basically a vertically stretched Focus with a slightly 4x4 looking bodykit. Though the number of 7 seat vehicles is quite low and probably does need resolving as there is a market for them. This might pose a challenge for EVs where the space under the boot floor is useful for batteries so you can't fold seats into it, and removable ones are a nuisance as they are heavy and you have to store them.