Have electric vehicles been "oversold" to the detriment of public transport, walking and cycling?

[The Ham]

but this will be imposed on people for whom they are really no good. I am OK with people making a choice. Its the compulsion I dislike.

I suspect that a lot of the fears of EV ownership are over played (please note I'm not saying that they'll be fine for everyone, rather that many who fear that they won't be suitable will find that EV's are fine).

There may be a need for some to make changes to how they go about certain trips, however generally only for a few trips a year for the vast majority of people (on average each person makes about 12 trips a year which are over 50 miles).

Even if you have to add 30 minutes to each of those 12 trips, that's 6 hours. However that's the same as taking 7 minutes a week to fill your car with fuel. As such whilst some trips will take longer, overall it's likely that most people would save time.

Likewise those without a driveway, whilst there's lots on street parking, there's also looks where it's within a car park and so it's possible to provide chargers.

Life will change, much as life has changed with the rise of the internet. 10 years ago data on phones was fairly slow not that common and costly. There's now adverts for 120Gb for £20/month.

A lot of the objections boil down to not wanting anything to change, rather than looking to see if such changes could actually improve things for us.

For instance, the extra charge times for long distance travel. Which could mean that rather than rushing to get to your holiday accommodation that you split the trip into two parts and enjoy a day trip or visit friends/family along the way.

For instance rather than leaving at 10am, traveling for 5 hours (although probably more as lots of others are driving at that time) and arriving at 3pm and then trying to find the nearest shop and that's about all that you do that day, you'd leave at 8:30, travel 2 hours (10:30), have a day trip, leave from there at 4pm, travel for 3 hours and arrive at your accommodation at 7pm. Your takeaway (ordered online when you're nearly there) is delivered at 7:30pm and the supermarket delivery arrives between 8pm and 9pm.

Likewise, there's often a lot of people who need to go to Scotland for a day or two. There's often just as nice places to go a lot closer, but it just takes as bit of research to find out those places. You'd likely be able to enjoy more time at then as you've reduced your travel time from (say) 5 hours to 3 hours (not much use on a Friday after work, but would give a bit more time Sunday afternoon).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, I completely agree - the ID4 is a lovely car but it's out of my price range. Thankfully a Zoe is pretty much the perfect size for my needs right now, and the new ones are way ahead of the first gen models or a leaf in comfort in my opinion. If you shop around you can get one on a cheaper lease than a Clio now...

I don't do leases or PCP, I buy outright at 2-3 years old (after the worst of the depreciation) with unsecured personal loans. I've never seen a dealer get anywhere near the rates you get on personal loans if you have a good credit record, unless 0% is on offer. Typically I do a 3 year loan but keep the car up to 5 years so can have a period of not paying anything for capital before trading in and getting another. I don't see any reason I'd treat an EV differently once the suitable ones (the Kia e-Niro might suit, for example, being a sort of small SUV type thing) filter through to the affordable used market.

 

[The Ham]

Ah - I'm guessing here, but if you've got a source of free fuel, then the economics don't work.

I used to have that, with an employer who allowed more or less unlimited use of a company car and company fuel. Then we were taken over by another firm, who withdrew the fuel cards - then withdrew the cars. A lot of very unhappy employees!

Assuming your guys is correct, then chances are there'd be free on-site charging, which unless you lived a long way from work would likely allow quite a lot of free personal milage.

However, you then need to consider what you're Benefit in Kind tax costs are, as chances are those for an electric car would be lower and for every £1 of tax saved that's another 20 miles which you can pay for without it costing anything more.

 

[Roast Veg]

There is no compulsion - anyone can continue buying new petrol cars for the next nine years, and using them for an indefinite period after that.

The road tax differential is quite compelling. What was an ultra-economic motorway cruising diesel could be taxed for nothing if it was built before 2018 - a similar car built after that date has to be at least a series hybrid to reach that goal. With the second hand market as it is, there's an enormous price differential over that dateline. You either have to accept a much more expensive hybrid or an extra £725 (5 years at £145) in premiums over the life of the car over and above the extra paid for its age.

 

[AM9]

I’d quite like to get an electric mini but the prices are horrendous and I don’t know how I’d charge it up without our electricity bill becoming extortionate!

a) The current view is that EVs will be equal to or cheaper than the equivalent IC models by 2025. The reason for this view is that they are much more simple than IC vehicles to manufacture.
b) Your electricity costs for motoring will be less than the petrol costs for the same number of miles, and if your journeys are the same length of the average UK journey, the cost difference will be even more with no additional maintenance costs that IC cars have when they are run frequently below optimum engine temperatures.

 

[Bletchleyite]

a) The current view is that EVs will be equal to or cheaper than the equivalent IC models by 2025. The reason for this view is that they are much more simple than IC vehicles to manufacture.
b) Your electricity costs for motoring will be less than the petrol costs for the same number of miles, and if your journeys are the same length of the average UK journey, the cost difference will be even more with no additional maintenance costs that IC cars have when they are run frequently below optimum engine temperatures.

(b) is certainly significant. EVs are as you say much, much simpler than ICE cars, and even stuff like brake lining wear will be substantially reduced because regen is used instead in many cases, so you'll need to change the pads and discs far less often, for example. I'm sure main dealers will still rip you off for a service, but in reality very little will actually need servicing, just a few pokes and prods to check nothing is going to fall off and a quick check for fault codes, and tyres when they get worn.

 

[AM9]

(b) is certainly significant. EVs are as you say much, much simpler than ICE cars, and even stuff like brake lining wear will be substantially reduced because regen is used instead in many cases, so you'll need to change the pads and discs far less often, for example. I'm sure main dealers will still rip you off for a service, but in reality very little will actually need servicing, just a few pokes and prods to check nothing is going to fall off and a quick check for fault codes, and tyres when they get worn.

Given the level of automation, it might even be possible for a service check to be conducted contactless allowing any specific work to be scheduled before the car arrives.

 

[Bayum]

Ah - I'm guessing here, but if you've got a source of free fuel, then the economics don't work.

I used to have that, with an employer who allowed more or less unlimited use of a company car and company fuel. Then we were taken over by another firm, who withdrew the fuel cards - then withdrew the cars. A lot of very unhappy employees!

Well, I live at home so I don’t pay the electric bill! Though I could pay the electric bill with what I’d save in fuel…

 

[Aictos]

Yes, I completely agree - the ID4 is a lovely car but it's out of my price range. Thankfully a Zoe is pretty much the perfect size for my needs right now, and the new ones are way ahead of the first gen models or a leaf in comfort in my opinion. If you shop around you can get one on a cheaper lease than a Clio now...

What about the electric Corsa that's now available?

 

[skyhigh]

I don't do leases or PCP, I buy outright at 2-3 years old (after the worst of the depreciation) with unsecured personal loans. I've never seen a dealer get anywhere near the rates you get on personal loans if you have a good credit record, unless 0% is on offer. Typically I do a 3 year loan but keep the car up to 5 years so can have a period of not paying anything for capital before trading in and getting another. I don't see any reason I'd treat an EV differently once the suitable ones (the Kia e-Niro might suit, for example, being a sort of small SUV type thing) filter through to the affordable used market.

Normally I'm the same - but I did get offered a significant discount over the cash price for PCP and 0% finance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

What about the electric Corsa that's now available?

It's a decent small EV - again I've seen deals (both cash and finance) that make it almost the same price as a petrol version, though admittedly that was before the chip shortage. The MG ZS is a good-value mid size EV.

If anyone is interested in trying out an EV to see how the practicalities work for them, there's services such as On.to that will offer a range on a minimum 1-month rent with insurance, maintenance and charging subscription included.

 

[37424]

Normally I'm the same - but I did get offered a significant discount over the cash price for PCP and 0% finance.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==


It's a decent small EV - again I've seen deals (both cash and finance) that make it almost the same price as a petrol version, though admittedly that was before the chip shortage. The MG ZS is a good-value mid size EV.

If anyone is interested in trying out an EV to see how the practicalities work for them, there's services such as On.to that will offer a range on a minimum 1-month rent with insurance, maintenance and charging subscription included.

I have just ordered a Corsa e with a good discount. I'm not interested in a PCP deal but the dealer suggested I took minimum finance of £2500 in order to get an extra £1000 off which I did. Now in the process of sorting arrangements for the home charger, need to get a smart meter put in order to get the cheap overnight EV rate, then the charging installation company practically want you to do your own site survey for the charger install, fortunately having an electrical engineering background I know what they are on about for others perhaps less so.

Being able or not able to charge at home does look like an major issue, if you cannot charge at home then to me at present it looks a lot less attractive as I gather some public chargers can be as high 49p Kwh compared to probably around 5p Kwh overnight or 15p in the daytime at home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MG ZS is a good-value mid size EV.

From what I've seen of the Chinese MGs they appear to be of poor design and quality - basically a bit "Daewoo". They may well improve as Kia have but I wouldn't be buying one at the moment.

 

[AM9]

I's a decent small EV - again I've seen deals (both cash and finance) that make it almost the same price as a petrol version, though admittedly that was before the chip shortage.

The oft quoted chip shortage is affecting everything, not just cars. I doubt that the IC Corsa is any different to the EV version in problems with chips so the prices of the two relative to each other should stay around the same.

 

[37424]

From what I've seen of the Chinese MGs they appear to be of poor design and quality - basically a bit "Daewoo". They may well improve as Kia have but I wouldn't be buying one at the moment.

My Cousin has one and he seems to like it but I don't need an SUV style vehicle and if I'm honest I would prefer to give my money to a European or Japanese company that has assembly plants in the UK rather than the Chinese. If Nissan had updated the Leaf with a CCS charging adaptor and Active Battery Cooling I would have bought a Leaf.

While you might argue the Corsa e is a design compromise being designed also for ICE, I like the fact it looks like a normal car and not something from a 1970's Sci-fi movie, or have yoke steering wheel Mr Tesla, what an earth is that about?

I do think there is going to be a big shift in the next few and probably much quicker than many people think, and those who think that the supermarkets won't get rid off fossil fuel stations within the next 5 years may be in for a shock.

 

[DustyBin]

I haven't posted on this thread for while but some of my colleagues have bitten the bullet and gone full electric. The Model 3 (in both standard and long range specs) has been a popular choice and one has ordered a Q4 e-tron. The good thing is I can now see how people making similar journeys to myself get on before deciding whether to make the jump myself. Although I still can't say that many EVs really appeal to me at this point; the Model 3 and Ford Mach-E are the two I'd consider. Come on Ford, make an actual Mustang with the Mach-E power train (or a Focus RS)!

 

[AM9]

Being able or not able to charge at home does look like an major issue, if you cannot charge at home then to me at present it looks a lot less attractive as I gather some public chargers can be as high 49p Kwh compared to probably around 5p Kwh overnight or 15p in the daytime at home.

Once charging services is seen as a potential business model there will be competition and prices will fall, clearly not as much as a domestic rate, but the installation of a 7kW charger still has to be offset. For most, even at 49kWh EVs will still be much cheaper to run than the equivalent IC car and that's before the higher maintenance costs of IC traction is accounted for.

 

[BananaRepublic]

............I gather some public chargers can be as high 49p Kwh compared to probably around 5p Kwh overnight or 15p in the daytime at home.

Those who are on an "agile" type tariff, occasionally have the overnight price go negative.
i.e. the electricity company pays you to take the electricity, so you can not only have cheap electric to run your car, but actually be paid to do so.

Of course agile tariffs are really geared towards households that also have solar, combined with a battery storage system, such as the Tesla PowerWall.


w

 

[Bald Rick]

My Cousin has one and he seems to like it but I don't need an SUV style vehicle and if I'm honest I would prefer to give my money to a European or Japanese company that has assembly plants in the UK rather than the Chinese.

I’m seeing an increasing number of Mini-electrics, and on my morning stroll today saw a Peugeot e-208, something I didn’t know even existed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

Those who are on an "agile" type tariff, occasionally have the overnight price go negative.
i.e. the electricity company pays you to take the electricity, so you can not only have cheap electric to run your car, but actually be paid to do so.

Of course agile tariffs are really geared towards households that also have solar, combined with a battery storage system, such as the Tesla PowerWall.


w

Negative wholesale prices are fairly soon going to be a thing of the past. The Norway inter connector and increasing EV use will see to that.

 

[ash39]

Once charging services is seen as a potential business model there will be competition and prices will fall, clearly not as much as a domestic rate, but the installation of a 7kW charger still has to be offset. For most, even at 49kWh EVs will still be much cheaper to run than the equivalent IC car and that's before the higher maintenance costs of IC traction is accounted for.

You're mad if you think that! Cheap tax and parking is a carrot being dangled to get people into EV's, but as soon as they start to gain traction, prices will only go one way.

Take a look at the prices of motorway service station fuel. I saw £1.49 a litre last week, around 20-25p a litre more than supermarket prices. Imagine how much it's going to cost to charge your car at a service station once demand goes up?

That's assuming you can charge it at all. I see lots of people saying a long distance journey in an EV is as simple as setting off earlier and allowing 30 minutes to recharge en route. How's that work when all the charging points are taken?

An average petrol station has around 10-12 pumps, but if you look at charging hotshots (typically new shopping centres, service stations, drive through coffee shops) they only tend to have a handful of charging stations at best. Even allowing for some charging at home, it doesn't take much to work out that without serious investments in infrastructure or serious improvements in battery range, the UK is nowhere near ready for the mass uptake of EV's.

 

[Bald Rick]

Even allowing for some charging at home, it doesn't take much to work out that without serious investments in infrastructure or serious improvements in battery range, the UK is nowhere near ready for the mass uptake of EV's.

But that investment is happening, right now.

 

[Factotum]

a) The current view is that EVs will be equal to or cheaper than the equivalent IC models by 2025. The reason for this view is that they are much more simple than IC vehicles to manufacture.
b) Your electricity costs for motoring will be less than the petrol costs for the same number of miles, and if your journeys are the same length of the average UK journey, the cost difference will be even more with no additional maintenance costs that IC cars have when they are run frequently below optimum engine temperatures.

But the government will have to make up the shortfall on income from fuel duty. How it will do that I do not know. It could charge duty on electricity specifically for cars but difficult to tax home charging unless you charge a higher rate of VAT for homes with EVs registered to them. Once ICE vehicles are phased out you could put a large purchase tax on EVs

Or, if you aren't a Tory, you could do the sensible thing and rise income tax

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

Once charging services is seen as a potential business model there will be competition and prices will fall, clearly not as much as a domestic rate, but the installation of a 7kW charger still has to be offset. For most, even at 49kWh EVs will still be much cheaper to run than the equivalent IC car and that's before the higher maintenance costs of IC traction is accounted for.

\Is the maintenance for EVs really so much cheaper. My 5000 miles per year Toyota is serviced once year for about £300 plus parts. The only ICE specifics are sparking plugs, and filters and possibly oil (do EVs need oil changes?). Tires, suspension, brakes, wiper blades are all needed on EVs and the extra weight could shorten tire life on EVs. MoT cost will be the same

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

But that investment is happening, right now.

And, as petrol stations close down or convert to EV charging stations, ICE vehicles drivers will begin to suffer from range anxiety

 

[ash39]

Considering less wealthy people will be priced out of EV's for some time to come, I don't think you're going to see a mass culling of petrol stations anytime soon. Any closures will be in areas where there is an overcapacity.

My local main road has just had a new Starbucks built. It's a route to the coast so very busy in summer with people travelling from quite far away. They have put two charging points in the car park. Two!

 

[skyhigh]

An average petrol station has around 10-12 pumps, but if you look at charging hotshots (typically new shopping centres, service stations, drive through coffee shops) they only tend to have a handful of charging stations at best. Even allowing for some charging at home, it doesn't take much to work out that without serious investments in infrastructure or serious improvements in battery range, the UK is nowhere near ready for the mass uptake of EV's.

As I said earlier, look at Rugby services, and the plans Gridserve have.

 

[ash39]

Just looked it up. This is from their founder:

“We began building the Electric Highway ten years ago and Moto were one of our founding partners. Back then, state-of-the-art charging was just 7kW and here we are today at 350kW in just a decade. This is our very first high power installation, and this new technology comes just at a tipping point in the adoption of electric vehicles.

So 10 years in, they've managed to put 12 superfast chargers in one location? At least they are looking at where the power comes from rather than just championing electric without considering how that electricity is generated, but still a long way to go.

I also question the design of EV charging spots. Why are they always in a parking bay? Would make a lot more sense if they were 'drive through' like a petrol pump. I say that because when the inevitable queues for charging points begin, how does the queue system work?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also question the design of EV charging spots. Why are they always in a parking bay? Would make a lot more sense if they were 'drive through' like a petrol pump.

No, it wouldn't, because the idea is that you plug in and go and do something else.

I say that because when the inevitable queues for charging points begin, how does the queue system work?

You go somewhere else. Perhaps a booking system could be put in place, allowing you to use an app* to find a nearby charger and reserve a slot based on your anticipated arrival time to ensure it is available. People could even compare prices in this way, meaning a wider market than just the ones nearby. (For instance if I was driving MK to Carlisle, I could look to stop anywhere between about Stafford and Preston for a charge - that's a lot of options!)

* Please don't reply to this with typical RUK non-issues with this. The number of people who satisfy both of "own an EV" and "do not use a smartphone" is likely to be zero for the foreseeable future, if not forever as "refuseniks" get older and stop driving altogether.

 

[DustyBin]

But the government will have to make up the shortfall on income from fuel duty. How it will do that I do not know. It could charge duty on electricity specifically for cars but difficult to tax home charging unless you charge a higher rate of VAT for homes with EVs registered to them. Once ICE vehicles are phased out you could put a large purchase tax on EVs

Or, if you aren't a Tory, you could do the sensible thing and rise income tax

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Without turning this into a political debate, how is increasing income tax sensible? It's a blunt instrument approach that will affect those less well off, who ironically are less likely to be able to afford an EV....

\Is the maintenance for EVs really so much cheaper. My 5000 miles per year Toyota is serviced once year for about £300 plus parts. The only ICE specifics are sparking plugs, and filters and possibly oil (do EVs need oil changes?). Tires, suspension, brakes, wiper blades are all needed on EVs and the extra weight could shorten tire life on EVs. MoT cost will be the same

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==

There's obviously no engine oil in an EV but there are oil filled components in the drive train. Whilst they're not necessarily sealed for life, most will have no change interval. The (extremely complicated) rear diff on my Focus has no recommended change interval unless regularly driven on track to put it in perspective. Battery replacement (if required) will be the big maintenance cost with EVs, none are old enough for it to be a concern at this stage though.

I'm sure testing stations will offer a discount as there is no emissions test... Or perhaps not!

And, as petrol stations close down or convert to EV charging stations, ICE vehicles drivers will begin to suffer from range anxiety

It's more refuelling anxiety. I point this out a lot but my petrol car will only do around 240 miles on a full tank. Plenty of EVs will match or exceed that, the issue is that it only takes a couple of minutes to refill a fuel tank and there are plenty of filling stations about.

 

[ash39]

No, it wouldn't, because the idea is that you plug in and go and do something else.

I don't think that's what the Gridserve are thinking. Their headline claim was 100 miles of range can be added in 5 minutes. From a quick skim read it sounded to me like they were aiming for a petrol station type experience, even if it didn't mean completing a full charge.

 

[BananaRepublic]

....... if you look at charging hotshots (typically new shopping centres, service stations, drive through coffee shops) they only tend to have a handful of charging stations at best. ......

That's now, not what will happen over the next few years or couple of decades.
It's like saying HS2 isn't much use, because there are currently no trains running on it.

Literally hundreds of public charging points are being installed every month.
As of today, 17th August, in the UK there are....

43,516 charging connectors, on...
25,315 charging devices, at
15,958 locations
That's a rise of 560 in the last 30 days.
The growth in the number of these is set to accelerate over the next few years.

There are less than 8,400 petrol filling station sites in the UK and the number continues to go down, year on year.
That's a much reduced figure from just under 20,000 filling stations in 1990 and over 40,000 in the 1960's.

Companies like BP and Shell have long seen the writing on the wall and over the last couple of years have been buying up or taking major stakes in electric charging companies.
e.g. BP Chargemaster (now rebranded as BP Pulse).


w

 

[Ken H]

But the government will have to make up the shortfall on income from fuel duty. How it will do that I do not know. It could charge duty on electricity specifically for cars but difficult to tax home charging unless you charge a higher rate of VAT for homes with EVs registered to them. Once ICE vehicles are phased out you could put a large purchase tax on EVs

Or, if you aren't a Tory, you could do the sensible thing and rise income tax

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==


\Is the maintenance for EVs really so much cheaper. My 5000 miles per year Toyota is serviced once year for about £300 plus parts. The only ICE specifics are sparking plugs, and filters and possibly oil (do EVs need oil changes?). Tires, suspension, brakes, wiper blades are all needed on EVs and the extra weight could shorten tire life on EVs. MoT cost will be the same

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 17 Aug 2021 ==


And, as petrol stations close down or convert to EV charging stations, ICE vehicles drivers will begin to suffer from range anxiety

Really? I am not for ever filling up. I just grab some when passing. People who put £20 in every few days will, maybe, struggle, but I always fill mine up.

 

[ash39]

That's now, not what will happen over the next few years or couple of decades.
It's like saying HS2 isn't much use, because there are currently no trains running on it.

Literally hundreds of public charging points are being installed every month.
As of today, 17th August, in the UK there are....

43,516 charging connectors, on...
25,315 charging devices, at
15,958 locations
That's a rise of 560 in the last 30 days.
The growth in the number of these is set to accelerate over the next few years.

There are less than 8,400 petrol filling station sites in the UK and the number continues to go down, year on year.
That's a much reduced figure from just under 20,000 filling stations in 1990 and over 40,000 in the 1960's.

Companies like BP and Shell have long seen the writing on the wall and over the last couple of years have been buying up or taking major stakes in electric charging companies.
e.g. BP Chargemaster.


w

Yes exactly, you've just proved my point. We're not ready yet.

Not quite getting the HS2 analogy sorry.