Personal security on long distance trains vs aircraft

[HowardGWR]

The definition of RUK

What does that stand for?

 

[Merseysider]

What does that stand for?

This website! Rail UK

 

[BluePenguin]

Coincidentally, one of my friends had a bag stolen on the London Midland train. She got on at Litchfield Trent Valley and a few stops later it was gone. Admittedly she did forget the bag on the train and but it was found. However the driver apparently moved it to a safe place before it was stolen

 

[AY1975]

Definitely aircraft. If anything happens, they can't run away and will be apprehended. There isn't really anything the railway can do about this bar running all trains non-stop, which isn't going to happen and shouldn't either, though it helps to have more gated stations to stop undesirables boarding. (In Germany where no stations are gated, on board petty crime is a far greater issue than in the UK where most major stations now are).

Air would still have the edge due to the higher cost to get anywhere near a plane.

Ticket gates may provide an extra level of security, but they do not completely keep undesirables out of the system: there is nothing to stop a determined pickpocket or luggage thief from buying the cheapest available return ticket, entering a gated station with the outward portion of such a ticket, committing their crimes and then leaving the station using their return portion.

A few years ago I was on a train going from Germany to the Netherlands (Germany is still a completely "open" system with no ticket gates, as you say, and the Netherlands was until fairly recently but now has gates at most major stations as part of the new "OV Chipkaart" smartcard ticketing system). As we arrived at the first station in the Netherlands, there was an announcement in German, English and Dutch warning passengers to keep an eye on their bags and valuables because pickpockets (called "Zakkenrollers", literally bag rollers, in Dutch) may be on the prowl.

I believe that in the Netherlands an "OV Chipkaart" smartcard allows you to enter and leave a station within 30 minutes without being charged (presumably this is intended for people meeting someone or seeing someone off), so there is nothing to stop a pickpocket from spending half an hour on a station and then leaving (or "signing in" with their smartcard, committing a few crimes at that station and then travelling to another station to commit more crimes before "signing out" at the exit gate or card reader).

Conversely, I am not aware of on-board petty crime having been much of a problem in Britain in the days when open stations were the norm here too (in the last few years of BR and in the early days of privatisation in the 1990s) but that's not to say it didn't happen (or doesn't still happen today). As far as I can recall only once in my life have I been approached by an undesirable on a long-distance train in Britain (and twice on shorter-distance commuter trains).

Clearly there is no such thing as 100% security.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Clearly there is no such thing as 100% security.

Even airports don't. A trick used in the US to get airside at zero cost (e.g. to see people off) is allegedly to buy a fully-flexible ticket for a journey at the relevant time, go through, exit and refund it as unused (because it's boarding the aircraft that counts in this regard). However, the barrier of having to spend £500+ to commit a few petty crimes would put most people off, a single to the next stop rather less so.

Even nicking bags off the carousel is risky business, because how do you know you're not just about to attempt to wheel a bag of hard drugs through customs if you do, the penalty for which is rather in excess of petty theft (death in some countries)?

 

[driverd]

If I had to choose I'd certainly say an aircraft, for all the reasons mentioned above (security checks, ID checks etc), however, that's not to say I feel insecure on trains. Perhaps I'm too trusting of my fellow passengers, but generally I'm very lax about security and it has only ever been an issue once in over a decade of making regular long distance train journeys.

On the one occasion it was a problem, I had left my iPhone on the seat back table of a Voyager as I went to the litter bin (annoyingly miles from any seats as they're only fitting in the vestibules). Given the train was rammed (as always), my iPhone was acting as my reservation. As I returned to my seat, I saw someone snatch my phone and pop it in their bag. Luckily, as I'd seen exactly who it was and exactly where they had put it, a frank, direct, no sh*t sort of conversation dealt with the issue quite quickly and I recovered said phone. Arguably my own fault but indicative of how secure I generally feel on trains, I would routinely do this and had never had a problem until this occasion.

 

[Falcon1200]

What worries me more about rail travel is its extreme vulnerability to external attacks. So easy for a suicide man to crash a lorry into a high speed train at a crossing. Or to put a bomb behind the drivers cab.

Whereas planes of course are completely invulnerable to external attacks......

 

[Titfield]

As regards the theft of unattended luggage.

How does a prospective thief know what the contents are and that they are worth nicking?

They do not have x-ray vision!

The real targets are wallets, mobile phones, laptop and other tech gear.

Thats the stuff to Keep safe on your person or in sight with other precautions if possible.

 

[riceuten]

Even nicking bags off the carousel is risky business, because how do you know you're not just about to attempt to wheel a bag of hard drugs through customs if you do, the penalty for which is rather in excess of petty theft (death in some countries)?

I would say the same is true about pinching a bag off a train. There's no guarantee it will be worth anything. The one time I DID have a bag nicked, it was on a bus, and it was a laptop bag containing the notes of a governing body meeting and 2 CDs.

I hear the same viewpoint from Clarksons about driving places rather than take the train and get your bags nicked. Because no-one has ever had their cars broken into and stuff nicked, ever.

*rolls eyes*

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2021 ==

I think that you are addressing a problem that hardly exists. Do statistics exist about the amount of luggage stolen from trains?
And I think that any precautions that make rail travel less easy are to be deplored. Perhaps more staff on the trains would help.
And, of course, it is not uncommon to loose luggage on an air flight.. It didn't earn the nicknames Theifrow for nothing.

What worries me more about rail travel is its extreme vulnerability to external attacks. So easy for a suicide man to crash a lorry into a high speed train at a crossing. Or to put a bomb behind the drivers cab.

Has that ever actually happened ? Versus the number of time planes have been hijacked ?

 

[al78]

Indeed

& petty thefts are most likely to happen on the street, or when someone is sat down in a pub/cafe/restaurant with their bag behind them. (particularly an issue with street seating on the continent)


Most crime falls into two categories; opportunistic or targeted

How likely is opportunistic on any form of transport? Very low; the thief has to get on, wander through the entire vehicle, & then get off. The getting on & then getting off makes it difficult, as they are at fixed points & could be well after the theft takes place.

And assuming they have got on with the intent of theft, what is the probability they will steal your belongings as opposed to anyone elses?

When it comes to air travel, your luggage is either in your hands or in the hands of responsible airport staff, but when it comes to disembarking at your destination, the most vulnerable time for luggage theft would be at baggage reclaim. There is the potential for a thief to rush to baggage reclaim, and if they get there ahead of the crowd, they can walk off with someone elses baggage and no-one is going to stop them unless the owner of the baggage just happens to see them steal it.

The potential for theft has crossed my mind before when I have used the train to visit family and I have my folding bike with me, which if the train is busy, has had to be put in a luggage rack or somewhere well out of my sight. Theoretically someone could walk off with it at one of the stops, but the probabiltiy of it happening is so low I haven't let it stress me. I have tended to put panniers in the overhead racks so someone isn't going to be stealing those without consequences if I can help it.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Aug 2021 ==

As regards the theft of unattended luggage.

How does a prospective thief know what the contents are and that they are worth nicking?

They do not have x-ray vision!

The real targets are wallets, mobile phones, laptop and other tech gear.

Thats the stuff to Keep safe on your person or in sight with other precautions if possible.

They just have to do it often enough and sooner or later will get lucky.

 

[camflyer]

Has there been a single recorded event in history (in the UK) where this has happened? And before you bring it up, no, none of the three Underground bombs on 7/7 involved either the driver’s cab or long distance trains.

Actually, it's surprising it hasn't happened been more attacks on the rail network considering trains are such a soft target compared to planes. If I was a terrorist mastermind then a simultaneous attack on the each of the mainlines would cause a huge amount of disruption.

 

[Starmill]

In general I'm privileged enough not to be feeling unsafe on public transport. However I recognise that some people do, and given it's clearly with reason that's absolutely not acceptable.

 

[yorksrob]

I hear the same viewpoint from Clarksons about driving places rather than take the train and get your bags nicked. Because no-one has ever had their cars broken into and stuff nicked, ever.

Not to mention the danger of the car itself being nicked !

 

[trainophile]

Perhaps I'm naive but I often leave all my stuff at my seat if I nip to the loo, even my phone in full view and an open Kindle. I go on the basis that almost all trains have some sort of CCTV coverage, which should act as a deterrent. I reported on here about once nearly having a backpack taken from the overhead rack on the opposite side on Merseyrail (they only have racks on one side in each carriage), but I spotted him about to get off at Freshfield and he handed it back without a murmur, or rather he did murmur something about "I was gong to hand it in", but as he had watched me put it up there he was clearly bluffing.

Think I will be more careful in future. The problem is that some train toilets don't have a hook or anywhere to stow a bag while you use the facilities. Cargo trousers are useful for taking phone with me, and my phone case holds my tickets, railcard and debit & credit cards so I wouldn't be totally lost, however I wouldn't have my keys so need to remember to take them with me too.

Only ever take hand luggage on planes, never gone away for long enough to need more than that.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I'm still waiting for the statistics showing that women are more likely to be victims specifically of theft than men...

 

[43066]

I'm still waiting for the statistics showing that women are more likely to be victims specifically of theft than men...

It’s often forgotten that men far more likely to be violently assaulted than women are.

Women are more likely to be victims of domestic violence, but of course this is between people known to each other. The same for the majority of rapes - very few are committed by strangers.

 

[Factotum]

Whereas planes of course are completely invulnerable to external attacks......

Once they are in the air you would need another aeroplane, and quite a speedy one, to attack it.
Indeed the few occasions I can think of am airliner been subject to external attacks it was by military aircraft.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2021 ==

I would say the same is true about pinching a bag off a train. There's no guarantee it will be worth anything. The one time I DID have a bag nicked, it was on a bus, and it was a laptop bag containing the notes of a governing body meeting and 2 CDs.

I hear the same viewpoint from Clarksons about driving places rather than take the train and get your bags nicked. Because no-one has ever had their cars broken into and stuff nicked, ever.

*rolls eyes*

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Aug 2021 ==


Has that ever actually happened ? Versus the number of time planes have been hijacked ?

No it hasn't. Which surprises me since trains are such a soft target

 

[Meerkat]

No it hasn't. Which surprises me since trains are such a soft target

The Madrid bombs were on trains weren’t they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whereas planes of course are completely invulnerable to external attacks......

They are far less vulnerable to them, because unless you've got some sort of missile launcher in your back pocket or a fighter jet parked on your drive it's a bit hard to get up in the air to do anything.

I would say the same is true about pinching a bag off a train. There's no guarantee it will be worth anything. The one time I DID have a bag nicked, it was on a bus, and it was a laptop bag containing the notes of a governing body meeting and 2 CDs.

But it's not the same. If you nick a bag off a train and it contains hard drugs, you could just dump it somewhere - you might get caught, you might not. If you take a bag full of hard drugs through customs, you are not likely to get away with it, and will very likely end up both done for theft and smuggling.

I'm still waiting for the statistics showing that women are more likely to be victims specifically of theft than men...

I doubt they would be, but this thread is entitled "personal security" not "security against theft", and women are definitely more vulnerable to potentially life changing sexual assaults and harrassment than men are because of simple physical fact. (Yes, male rape is sadly a thing, but the number of men who would seek to do that is pretty much by definition smaller than the number of people who would seek to do the same to a women).

I think that may well be why mild sexual harrassment by women against men (e.g. backside pinching from hen parties) is seen as less unacceptable* than the other way round - there is simply physically no possibility whatsoever of it progressing onto something more serious, because a woman physically can't rape** a man. Thus, a man who has his backside pinched might find it annoying and inappropriate, but a woman experiencing the same might totally validly fear what could come next.

Women probably are more vulnerable to mugging, though.

* To be clear I don't find it acceptable.
** Depending on the precise wording of the law there may be odd exceptions to this relating to use of drugs or similar, but not the main obvious way.

 

[al78]

If I was a terrorist mastermind then a simultaneous attack on the each of the mainlines would cause a huge amount of disruption.

They don't need to do that, they can just wait until Network rail decide to do engineering work on both main lines simultaneously.

Or wait for the next significant snowfall or windstorm.



== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Aug 2021 ==

Once they are in the air you would need another aeroplane, and quite a speedy one, to attack it.

Or a surface to air missile.

 

[zero]

A friend told me that his female friend had a bag stolen on the tube by someone who had offered to help her carry it up the stairs. He then ran out of the station with it.

It contained the corpse of her elderly dog which she was bringing to the vet to be sent for cremation

 

[Falcon1200]

It contained the corpse of her elderly dog which she was bringing to the vet to be sent for cremation

Brilliant ! That reminds of a bomb scare at Glasgow Central one evening, causing delays and cancellations, due to a suspicious bag left by a man on a train; It was found to contain his dirty washing (not quite as dangerous).

 

[Factotum]

A friend told me that his female friend had a bag stolen on the tube by someone who had offered to help her carry it up the stairs. He then ran out of the station with it.

It contained the corpse of her elderly dog which she was bringing to the vet to be sent for cremation

Which inevitably raises the old chestnut about the man taking a whisky bottle full of equine urine to the vet for a test; and had it stolen.

 

[GodAtum]

I always keep my luggage within view on trains, as its so easy for someone to nick it.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Is there a real problem of theft/assaults on trains ?

I've seen a few people put off of trains or arrested. Only once was it for theft. The guard made an announcement for passengers to watch their possessions. BTP boarded at the next stop and took two people off.


We've never had a problem with our baggage on a UK train. Airlines have 'lost' my checked luggage many times.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Aug 2021 ==

A friend told me that his female friend had a bag stolen on the tube by some

Our days of lugging heavy suitcases up and down tube station stairs have come to an end. Either we plan to use stations with step free access or we pay a few pounds extra for a taxi.

Years ago you might have seen me madly running up and down stairs carrying a heavy suitcase.

Step-free access

We're adding step-free access to more Tube and London Overground stations

tfl.gov.uk

 

[londonbridge]

On long distance trains, if I need the loo or the buffet car I tend to leave my coat or jacket on the seat, removing any loose change/my wallet, my house keys and my phone before I go. Or if I’ve got a carrier bag I’ll leave my newspaper or other items of low value inside and use that. My holdall/rucksack etc I’ll usually leave in the overhead luggage rack. I do try to time it in between stations so that I’m back at my seat before we stop in order to also avoid people boarding and thinking my seat is vacant, or else I’ll use the loo on the approach to the trains final destination if I’m travelling that far.

In one instance I walked down the carriage to go to the loo and found it out of service, so I went through to the next carriage and walked the length of that to the one at the other end. Carriage was about a third full and I noticed a newspaper on the table with no one sitting there. Still there when I left the loo and headed back, thinking it had been abandoned I picked it up and returned to my carriage and seat. Some fifteen minutes later I’d read through some of it and started on the crossword when a bloke approached and asked “can I have my ‘paper back please”?? I just said “oh, sorry mate”, and gave it back. Dunno where he’d been nor why it took so long to retrieve it, good job I hadn’t got off and taken it with me in the meantime.

 

[TravelDream]

We've never had a problem with our baggage on a UK train. Airlines have 'lost' my checked luggage many times.

I think you must be incredibly unlucky if it's happened many times. As I said above, I have flow well over 100 times and have only ever had my bag delayed once. Never lost.

The airline will compensate you if you lose your bag/ it gets stolen. The TOC on the other hand.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Indeed the few occasions I can think of am airliner been subject to external attacks it was by military aircraft.

MH17 (over Ukraine) and PS752 (January 2020 departing Tehran) were both downed by ground attacks.

Iran Air 655 was shot down by a misile from a US warship.

 

[172007]

MH17 (over Ukraine) and PS752 (January 2020 departing Tehran) were both downed by ground attacks.

Iran Air 655 was shot down by a misile from a US warship.

Japanese 747 in the eighties downed by a Soviet Mig also.

 

[TravelDream]

MH17 (over Ukrain) and PS752 (January 2020 departing Tehran) were both downed by ground attacks.

Iran Air 655 was shot down by a misile from a US warship.

Three military mistakes.

MH17 - I am not sure we will ever know what truly happened though it is clear Russia shot the plane down likely mistaking it for a Ukrainian transport plane. The BUK system isn't something any old idiot can operate and needs a team of highly trained soldiers. Russia still denies its troops entered Ukrainian territory though.

PS752 - Iran eventually admitted that they f'd up big style.

IR655 - Another massive f up where a whole series of mistakes led to the commercial plane being shot down. To America's complete disgrace, they actually promoted the captain of the ship who gave the order to shoot the plane down.

And there are even more.
There was a Korean Air 747 KAL007 which was shot down by the USSR after it went of course due to a crew navigation error. Of course they denied it at the time, but after the Soviet Union collapsed they admitted they shot it down and knew it was a commercial aircraft. Though they claimed they thought it was a spy aircraft disguised as a commercial one.
There are many others too. Ukraine shot down a Siberia Airlines plane in the early 2000s during a joint Ukraine-Russia military exercise. There have been more than a few in Africa over the years too.