Personal security on long distance trains vs aircraft

[class387]

Was having a discussion with some of my friends who don't travel by train often earlier. They said they prefer to make long distance trips by plane rather than rail (especially alone/if asleep) given that it feels safer in terms of personal security on a plane. Reasons cited included people being able to run off with your possessions at intermediate stops (I guess especially towards the end of an intercity service, on a flight everyone is going to the same destination usually), lower staff presence and the lack of security/ID checks with seats allocated based on that.

Had never considered this before - never had a problem with personal security on either and trains might seem slightly safer to me thinking about it now - and thought it was an interesting argument that does makes some sense. Any thoughts on this? And is there anything that should be done to make trains feel safer/more appealing to passengers who are less experienced (especially given the need for modal shift from air to rail to combat climate change) - would policies like security checks and compulsory reservation, that we might view as an inconvenience, help in this regard?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Definitely aircraft. If anything happens, they can't run away and will be apprehended. There isn't really anything the railway can do about this bar running all trains non-stop, which isn't going to happen and shouldn't either, though it helps to have more gated stations to stop undesirables boarding. (In Germany where no stations are gated, on board petty crime is a far greater issue than in the UK where most major stations now are).

Air would still have the edge due to the higher cost to get anywhere near a plane.

 

[deltic]

On a train you can generally move away from someone - much more difficult on a plane. While I didn't feel unsafe I have pretended to be asleep on a 3hr flight to avoid conversing with a group of drunken individuals sitting around me.

 

[Factotum]

Was having a discussion with some of my friends who don't travel by train often earlier. They said they prefer to make long distance trips by plane rather than rail (especially alone/if asleep) given that it feels safer in terms of personal security on a plane. Reasons cited included people being able to run off with your possessions at intermediate stops (I guess especially towards the end of an intercity service, on a flight everyone is going to the same destination usually), lower staff presence and the lack of security/ID checks with seats allocated based on that.

Had never considered this before - never had a problem with personal security on either and trains might seem slightly safer to me thinking about it now - and thought it was an interesting argument that does makes some sense. Any thoughts on this? And is there anything that should be done to make trains feel safer/more appealing to passengers who are less experienced (especially given the need for modal shift from air to rail to combat climate change) - would policies like security checks and compulsory reservation, that we might view as an inconvenience, help in this regard?

I think that you are addressing a problem that hardly exists. Do statistics exist about the amount of luggage stolen from trains?
And I think that any precautions that make rail travel less easy are to be deplored. Perhaps more staff on the trains would help.
And, of course, it is not uncommon to loose luggage on an air flight.. It didn't earn the nicknames Theifrow for nothing.

What worries me more about rail travel is its extreme vulnerability to external attacks. So easy for a suicide man to crash a lorry into a high speed train at a crossing. Or to put a bomb behind the drivers cab.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, you're stuck on a plane. At least on the train you can move to another carriage, or even get off at an earlier stop (which I did once after getting accosted by some unpleasant types).

 

[Bletchleyite]

What worries me more about rail travel is its extreme vulnerability to external attacks. So easy for a suicide man to crash a lorry into a high speed train at a crossing. Or to put a bomb behind the drivers cab.

I think this is classic poor risk assessment. This is very, very unlikely to happen, but because it feels catastrophic you feel it. Whereas petty thefts happen all the time, so they are what you should really fear.

 

[dk1]

Some people really overthink things.

 

[mike57]

When we travel for holiday we will have a couple of cases and maybe a bag which have to be left on the end luggage rack, I always carry a simple wire bike lock which I slip through the handles to tie them all together. Its not going to stop a determined thief who wants my bag rather than just any bag, but it will deter the opportunist.

I have also seen people padlock thier folding bike to the rack with their bike lock, and on one journey from London a potential bag thief tried steal a ladies suitcase. She spotted it as she was just coming out of the toilet, and in the ensueing melee the thief got caught on the train. When we got to Retford there was a reception committee for him. He was a foul mouthed scumbag, was abusing the staff who had him cornered, and started calling one of the staff racially offensive names, that sealed his fate, he was carted off in hand cuffs.

 

[riceuten]

Reasons cited included people being able to run off with your possessions at intermediate stops

My other half is obsessed with this - luggage has to be "in view" at all times. To be fair, it's an obsession shared by most of her countrymen, and has led to many an argument with them when I have been travelling, including one moron who wouldn't move his luggage from my reserved seat "because there is no space for it" - there was - at the end of the carriage, but "someone will steal it". The "schaffner"(guard) made him move it, and he was in tears !

Personally, I would be as worried about baggage control whipping my luggage as some lightfingered train luggage thief

 

[deltic]

I think the answer will also depend on your gender. While harassment of women on flights is not unknown it is sadly far too common on the rail network and probably of an order many times that experienced while flying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the answer will also depend on your gender. While harassment of women on flights is not unknown it is sadly far too common on the rail network and probably of an order many times that experienced while flying.

Yes, true. Being in any public place is generally safer for a man than a woman, and that is just wrong.

 

[matacaster]

Definitely aircraft. If anything happens, they can't run away and will be apprehended. There isn't really anything the railway can do about this bar running all trains non-stop, which isn't going to happen and shouldn't either, though it helps to have more gated stations to stop undesirables boarding. (In Germany where no stations are gated, on board petty crime is a far greater issue than in the UK where most major stations now are).

Air would still have the edge due to the higher cost to get anywhere near a plane.

That's not entirely true. I have seen a train pull up at Huddersfield station, doors kept locked until the large body of police had it covered. They took away culprits.

 

[Merseysider]

I’ve never felt unsafe on either; I would be perfectly fine on a plane leaving my belonging unattended for a trip to the john / refreshments trolley etc.

On a train, I’m also fine doing this, but if we’re at a station I always wait until the doors have closed and we’ve set off - that way in the unlikely event someone did nick my (fairly worthless) rucksack we could still find them on the train, Murder on the Orient Express style

 

[option]

I think this is classic poor risk assessment. This is very, very unlikely to happen, but because it feels catastrophic you feel it. Whereas petty thefts happen all the time, so they are what you should really fear.

Indeed

& petty thefts are most likely to happen on the street, or when someone is sat down in a pub/cafe/restaurant with their bag behind them. (particularly an issue with street seating on the continent)


Most crime falls into two categories; opportunistic or targeted

How likely is opportunistic on any form of transport? Very low; the thief has to get on, wander through the entire vehicle, & then get off. The getting on & then getting off makes it difficult, as they are at fixed points & could be well after the theft takes place.

 

[Merseysider]

What worries me more about rail travel is its extreme vulnerability to external attacks. So easy for a suicide man to crash a lorry into a high speed train at a crossing. Or to put a bomb behind the drivers cab.

Has there been a single recorded event in history (in the UK) where this has happened? And before you bring it up, no, none of the three Underground bombs on 7/7 involved either the driver’s cab or long distance trains.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Had never considered this before - never had a problem with personal security on either and trains might seem slightly safer to me thinking about it now - and thought it was an interesting argument that does makes some sense. Any thoughts on this? And is there anything that should be done to make trains feel safer/more appealing to passengers who are less experienced (especially given the need for modal shift from air to rail to combat climate change) - would policies like security checks and compulsory reservation, that we might view as an inconvenience, help in this regard?

Public transport isn't for everyone. There will always be some people who jealously guard their own space, don't feel safe in the company of others, etc.

You can't cater for everyone's preferences or neurosis.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed

& petty thefts are most likely to happen on the street, or when someone is sat down in a pub/cafe/restaurant with their bag behind them. (particularly an issue with street seating on the continent)


Most crime falls into two categories; opportunistic or targeted

How likely is opportunistic on any form of transport? Very low; the thief has to get on, wander through the entire vehicle, & then get off. The getting on & then getting off makes it difficult, as they are at fixed points & could be well after the theft takes place.

A sort of targetted-opportunistic type of theft would be involved - wander through a train and nick the most valuable looking piece of unattended property.

The UK is mercifully very safe in terms of pickpocketing and petty theft, though. Many European cities are terrible for it - Barcelona and Paris in particular.

 

[mike57]

Has there been a single recorded event in history where this has happened? And before you bring it up, no, none of the three Underground bombs on 7/7 involved either the driver’s cab or long distance trains.

Not terrorism, but the Ufton Nervet derailment was caused by a deliberate suicide at a level crossing.

 

[yorksrob]

My biggest fear about train travel is that all the toilets will go out of use on the last train home.

 

[DarloRich]

Some people really overthink things.

The definition of RUK

 

[mike57]

A sort of targetted-opportunistic type of theft would be involved - wander through a train and nick the most valuable looking piece of unattended property.

Incident I mentioned, plan was to jump on, grab bag, and jump off again, nothing targeted I suspect, just the nick first decent looking suitcase in the rack by the door, but didnt bargain for the lady who owned it (who was I suspect 70ish) seeing it. She was your stereotypical angry old lady, who blocked him long enough for the doors to close.

 

[Merseysider]

Not terrorism, but the Ufton Nervet derailment was caused by a deliberate suicide at a level crossing.

Thanks - I wasn’t aware of that one.

I had a nosy round the internet - it does indeed appear in the UK that rail is safest (least likely to die) - at 1 in 131000 over a lifetime, compared to just over 1 in 400 by motor vehicle (link here) though other sources may have slightly differing figures.

Abroad though, petty crime can definitely be much more of an issue than it is here - wouldn’t leave my bag unattended for a second if I were on a train in France, for example.

 

[wireforever]

Went to Barcelona a few years ago trip adviser stated the metro was bad for theft of bags etc.Met a US tourist on check in at hotel who had a couple of hours earlier had his wallet stolen from his jeans back pocket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Went to Barcelona a few years ago trip adviser stated the metro was bad for theft of bags etc.Met a US tourist on check in at hotel who had a couple of hours earlier had his wallet stolen from his jeans back pocket.

Barcelona is terrible for petty theft of all kinds, particularly La Rambla.

 

[dk1]

The definition of RUK

Had to Google that & I'm still not sure

 

[Julia]

Theft and damage: experienced it once when a luggage handler broke into my suitcase and grabbed a couple of things; once when the TSA forced my suitcase open and broke some stuff inside, and once when Ryanair smashed a rigid clam-shell case. Never on a train.

Personal safety: I feel safer on a train; if someone gets leery then there's often the option to discreetly move elsewhere, or get off early and take the next train. On a plane, if the creep is sat next to you, tough. Also impossible to move out of window seats (which, all else being equal, I like) without the cooperation of said creep.

Plus, although I don't generally fly long haul, there are some countries I would absolutely never want to make an unscheduled stop in, which is unlikely to happen in a train...

 

[mike57]

Paris Metro has a pickpocket problem at some stations. Dont leave anything loose in your pocket. I have a special 'travelling' phone case, it has a thin polypropylene lanyard with a clip on the end, that clips to my belt loop, long enough to use the phone normally but would deter theft.

 

[_toommm_]

Bag in between legs underneath the table, Airpods in, sit on your phone.

It’s that secure and I worry that little I’ve been known to miss my stop many times.

 

[Robertj21a]

Went to Barcelona a few years ago trip adviser stated the metro was bad for theft of bags etc.Met a US tourist on check in at hotel who had a couple of hours earlier had his wallet stolen from his jeans back pocket.

The whole of Barcelona is truly terrible for theft.

 

[westv]

Went to Barcelona a few years ago trip adviser stated the metro was bad for theft of bags etc.Met a US tourist on check in at hotel who had a couple of hours earlier had his wallet stolen from his jeans back pocket.

Why do some people persist in putting valuables in their back pockets?!