SR South Western division historical patterns 1967-2003

[jfollows]

When in 1989 was your timetable from?

I definitely remember they stopped at Woking from 1982-May 1989, and fairly (90%) certain they missed Woking from 15 May 1989 (start of the Greyhound timetable), it's possible I misremembered though. Also fairly sure the Fratton call got added in the late 80s but again may have got that wrong.

My timetable is 16/5/88 to 14/5/89, in which they stop at Woking as you say, and I don't know about 15 May 1989 onwards, it's only my memory against yours and I've certainly found my memory to be wanting in the past!

ALSO, in October 1989 I went to live in the USA until December 1992, so I won't have much experience of using the 81 services myself then anyway.

I will get a 1992 (WG) working timetable in about a week, this may contain something of interest.

EDIT In other words, if I were a betting man, I'd bet on your memory about the Woking non-stop from 1989 rather than mine!

 

[nw1]

I moved to Petersfield from Scotland in 1973 and at that time the standard off-peak pattern on the Portsmouth Direct was 3 tph:-

Headcode 81: xx 20 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour, calling at Gulidford, Haslemere, Havant and Portsmouth & Southsea
Headcode 82: xx 50 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour, calling at Woking, Guildford, Godalming, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant and Portsmouth & Southsea
Headcode 73: xx 52 Waterloo-Portsmouth & Southsea, calling at Wimbledon, Surbiton and all stations via Woking, except Hilsea in the off-peak

The 81s and 82s were normally 12 car CIG-BIG-CIG formations, sometimes reduced to 8 car BIG-CIG after the evening peak; while the stoppers were either 4 or 8 VEP formations.

By the time I started working on the railway in November 1975, the fast and semi-fast services had swapped departure times and gained extra stops, viz:

Headcode 81: xx 50 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour, calling at Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant and Portsmouth & Southsea
Headcode 82: xx 20 Waterloo-Portsmouth Harbour, calling at Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere and all stations except Hilsea

The headcode 73 stoppers remained unchanged for a few more years.

Interesting, so looks like 1975 was when the xx50=81, xx20=82 pattern (which would remain, with only slight adjustments of a few minutes, until the early 90s) came in. Also looks like that is when the '80s' stopping pattern of the '82' came in, though it later lost Rowlands Castle and for a while Bedhampton. Interesting that the '81' featured a Petersfield stop in 1975: this had gone by 1981 but was back in 1985.

The 1973 timetable is reminiscent of the old 1972 timetable I once had, with both the fast and semi-fast having buffet facilities. I presume 1975 was also when the '82' lost its buffet facilities and changed to CIGs and VEPs with no BIGs (as it was in the 80s)?

Looks like the lack of off-peak services at Hilsea was a long-standing thing also, think this was only changed in the late 80s. So much so that the Guildford recorded announcement for the stoppers didn't feature Hilsea, and the additional recorded announcement "This train also calls at Hilsea." was added for the small number of services that did stop.

 

[jfollows]

Looks like the lack of off-peak services at Hilsea was a long-standing thing also, think this was only changed in the late 80s.

In 1979 the last down morning call at Hilsea was 09:04, although there was a 10S01 call on a service from Littlehampton (S - "Stops for B.R. Personnel only"), then 16:17 on a DEMU from Salisbury. Up the last morning call was 09:10 to Eastleigh, followed by 15S10 in an Eastleigh service, then 15:39 the first passenger call in an '84' Waterloo service via Cobham calling all stations to Guildford at least.
I'd guess that the two "S" calls were to collect and deposit station staff.

By 1989 there were calls all day, see my post SWR December 2022 Timetable Consultation for a timetable page.

 

[30907]

What, so the 0714 Chertsey was formed of a 50+Mk-II? That must have been a luxury commute on a line which, AFAIK, has otherwise always in modern (1967+) times been operated by suburban stock.

It is shown as AIR braked - but so were the Weymouth Boat sets, and those were definitely Mk1 then. The Exeters are shown as h/c 62 meaning class 33, but the 0900 down, 1420 up, 1900 down are also shown AIR... meaning there must have been a second AB or DB set in the circuit; they were WR anyway.

(I'm a little surprised they didn't use the stock for the 0900 on an additional inbound morning peak from Salisbury to provide more commuter capacity from Salisbury, Andover etc)

Perhaps wasn't the need then? The set would have had to come ECS from Clapham Yard and would of course have needed a 33 not a 73.

BTW there was an 0710 Basing-Waterloo REP+TC, fast from Farnborough, which formed the 0830(ish) Weymouth.

 

[jfollows]

It is shown as AIR braked - but so were the Weymouth Boat sets, and those were definitely Mk1 then. The Exeters are shown as h/c 62 meaning class 33, but the 0900 down, 1420 up, 1900 down are also shown AIR... meaning there must have been a second AB or DB set in the circuit; they were WR anyway.

Yes, my Manchester mindset led me to think that AIR implied Mark2 or later, I'd forgotten that the Southern had its Mark1 coaches air braked.
I think the "AIR" is a rogue entry, because it's not listed in the "explanation of references" at the front of the working timetable, whereas "VB" is, so it's actually meaningless since the absence of information should mean the train is air braked anyway.

 

[nw1]

In 1979 the last down morning call at Hilsea was 09:04, although there was a 10S01 call on a service from Littlehampton (S - "Stops for B.R. Personnel only"), then 16:17 on a DEMU from Salisbury. Up the last morning call was 09:10 to Eastleigh, followed by 15S10 in an Eastleigh service, then 15:39 the first passenger call in an '84' Waterloo service via Cobham calling all stations to Guildford at least.
I'd guess that the two "S" calls were to collect and deposit station staff.

By 1989 there were calls all day, see my post SWR December 2022 Timetable Consultation for a timetable page.

Yes, that was much the pattern in the early/mid 80s. I remember that '84' Portsmouth to Waterloo at Cobham, due out of Guildford at 1652 at the time in a regular '42' path. At that time it was 8CIG - an example of one of the stoppers round the peak which were operated by CIGs rather than VEPs. Came off a down '82', the 1318 from Waterloo (see post above)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Aug 2021 ==

It is shown as AIR braked - but so were the Weymouth Boat sets, and those were definitely Mk1 then. The Exeters are shown as h/c 62 meaning class 33, but the 0900 down, 1420 up, 1900 down are also shown AIR... meaning there must have been a second AB or DB set in the circuit; they were WR anyway.


Perhaps wasn't the need then? The set would have had to come ECS from Clapham Yard and would of course have needed a 33 not a 73.

Guess it was a 73 as the incoming Chertsey and then 33 as the outgoing Exeter - so presumably no 50s yet in 1979? (They were definitely there by February 1983)

BTW there was an 0710 Basing-Waterloo REP+TC, fast from Farnborough, which formed the 0830(ish) Weymouth.

Still there in the 1981 timetable on timetableworld.com. Looking at the timetable the first incoming fast from Southampton that year arrived Waterloo as late as 0818, which I would imagine would then form the 0845 '92' as there was nothing else which could form the 0845. So one might infer that in 1981 this service was still REP+TC and formed the 0835 '91'.

There were no 'fast' services from Basingstoke that year until the 0735 arriving 0818, though a very intensive set of early 'stopping' services from Basingstoke in the early morning peak.

A slightly curious 1981 working was the 0716 from Southampton calling at Winchester and Basingstoke only, arriving Waterloo 0840. This had no buffet and from my reading of the timetable, would not form either the 0935 or the 0945 down (which would be formed from the 0900 and 0919 arrivals respectively). Wonder what stock formed this... a rare VEP express? Or a 73-hauled set of some kind? Or a rare working of CIGs beyond Brookwood: I don't remember seeing CIGs on any 'main line' service beyond Brookwood until around 1988 but this may have been an exception. Whatever, this would have been a prime commuter working from Southampton to London so would be interesting if anyone knew the stock allocation of this service.

 

[181]

then 1988 saw the Weymouth electrification and 442s, though ISTR these were delayed with some services still run by TCs, hauled by 73s ISTR, in the summer of 1988

4-REPs were still around in late 1988 -- the Clapham Junction accident in December that year involved a REP + TC + TC formation. Indeed Wikipedia says that 'Reconfigured REPs and TCs soldiered on along the Weymouth line to cover for unavailable 442 units from mid 1988 until 1991. The final use of a REP was in the last week of September 1991, units 1901 and 1904 being the last.', which surprises me (maybe they didn't reach London); this appears to be the source. As far as I can see amid all the detail at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-3TC-4TC-4REP-Bournemouth-1966.html, a few 4-REPs did indeed survive, after much shuffling around of carriages, until 1990, and, reformed into 6-REPs, until 1991.

What, so the 0714 Chertsey was formed of a 50+Mk-II? That must have been a luxury commute on a line which, AFAIK, has otherwise always in modern (1967+) times been operated by suburban stock.

No, at least not in my recollection, I don't know about the stock but the locomotive was a class 73 I think.

EDIT For once, my memory is good. Headcode 14, ED315, 07:20 Chertsey to Waterloo in the 1979 timetable, by 1988 was EMU 07:22 from Staines. In 1979 was AIR so probably Mark 2 stock (if used on the Exeter service by that date).

From September 1982 I used to see it passing through Surbiton -- unusual for a non-stop train to pass through platform 1 (the up slow). By then it was a single 4-VEP or 4-CIG (it's vaguely in my mind that it was often the latter, but I wouldn't put too much reliance on that).

If it was forming an Exeter service, as opposed to Salisbury, one might assume that it was Mk-II as that was certainly the standard by 1983, maybe it was still Mk-I in 1978?

Guess it was a 73 as the incoming Chertsey and then 33 as the outgoing Exeter - so presumably no 50s yet in 1979? (They were definitely there by February 1983)

My recollection is that the 50s replaced 33s on the Exeter trains in about 1980, and (I'm less certain of this, but it seems likely) that the MkIIs replaced MkIs at about the same time.

 

[Taunton]

Or a rare working of CIGs beyond Brookwood: I don't remember seeing CIGs on any 'main line' service beyond Brookwood until around 1988

From the start in 1967 there were summer Saturday reliefs between Waterloo and Bournemouth in the timetable which I believe were down for CIG sets. There was a photograph of one in Modern Railways at the time.

 

[nw1]

(the Chertsey starter run as 73+hauled stock in 1979)
From September 1982 I used to see it passing through Surbiton -- unusual for a non-stop train to pass through platform 1 (the up slow). By then it was a single 4-VEP or 4-CIG (it's vaguely in my mind that it was often the latter, but I wouldn't put too much reliance on that).


My recollection is that the 50s replaced 33s on the Exeter trains in about 1980, and (I'm less certain of this, but it seems likely) that the MkIIs replaced MkIs at about the same time.

Given the Chertsey starter was a VEP or CIG by 1982 (and perhaps 1981 also?) could it therefore be that the 0716 from Southampton that I mentioned above might, by 1981, have been formed of the Mk-IIs which formed the (by then) 0910 Exeter? Hauled by a 73?


To continue: following up with the pattern in early SWT days (1997/98).

By then both the Portsmouth Direct and the SWML had 20-minute interval services, so you had xx00, xx20 and xx40 to Portsmouth and xx30, xx50, and xx10 to Southampton or beyond. The pattern out of Waterloo was (note all stopping patterns are from memory and might have minor inaccuracies):

xx00 Portsmouth fast (Woking, Guildford, Haslemere, Petersfield, Havant, Fratton, PSS, PH). Largely 442s.

xx03 Alton - fast to Woking then all. CIGs and VEPs.

xx09 Woking slow, must have used the slow lines throughout. I think this called Vauxhall, Clapham Junction, Wimbledon, Surbiton and all. 455s. By now Platform 3 at Woking was open so terminated there.

xx10 Southampton semi-fast. I think this was Farnborough-Basingstoke-Winchester-Eastleigh-Parkway. An unusual quirk with this service was that half the off-peak services were operated with 159s, not needed for the Exeter line off-peak. (There were 4 diagrams, 2 442, 2 159, with rather long turnarounds at Waterloo).

xx12 Basingstoke: Clapham, Surbiton, Woking and all. Largely VEPs, occasional CIG. Many services then formed the Basingstoke to Brighton via Fareham (headcode 31), which ran in the hours that there was no direct Reading-Brighton (anyone remember that?)

xx20 Portsmouth '82' - Clapham, Woking, Guildford, Farncombe, Godalming, Haslemere and all. CIG/BEP/CIG combinations, though buffet not open.

xx24 Haslemere slow: Clapham, Surbiton, Walton, Weybridge, Woking and all. Looped at Guildford to allow xx40 to pass (see below). 3 off-peak diagrams, 2 VEP, 1 CIG.

xx30 Weymouth express, fast to Winchester in these days. Largely unchanged from the 1967 pattern with the addition of Winchester, Parkway and Brockenhurst stops. 442s (single 442 off peak, double towards the peak; more double 442s on Saturdays)

xx33 Farnham: Surbiton, Woking and all. CIGs and VEPs.

xx35 Exeter (alternate hours) or Salisbury (alternate hours), I remember in the early days of 159s you had occasional quirky extensions beyond Salisbury to Tisbury or Gillingham in some hours, can't remember if these still applied then. Much the classic stopping pattern, with the Exeters running Basingstoke-Andover-Salisbury and the Salisburys all stations. Called at Clapham Junction by this time (introduced in 1989, I think)

xx40 Portsmouth express: I think this was ONLY Guildford, Havant, Fratton, PSS - I have a feeling this terminated at PSS, or at least some services did. Connected at Guildford with xx24 above to give three trains to Haslemere by changing. 442s, but single CIGs towards the peak - I seem to remember the 71 headcode for these.

xx39 Woking, as xx09 above

xx42 Portsmouth via Fareham. By this stage, for whatever reason, the semi-fast Portsmouth via Fareham, introduced in 1990, had been abandoned - but there was this slower service. Clapham, Surbiton, Woking then all. CIGs and VEPs. Interworked with Portsmouth-Southampton '85' stopper at Portsmouth, and some interworking with Farnham/Alton services at Waterloo. (Small chance I have got the xx12 and xx42 the wrong way round)

xx50 Poole semi-fast. Fairly sure this was largely unchanged from the classic xx45, stops were something like Clapham, Woking, Basingstoke, Winchester, Eastleigh, Parkway, Southampton Central, Totton (not classically called at), Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch then all. 442s; single off-peak, double towards the peak; more doubles on Saturdays.

xx54 Guildford stopper, as per xx24 but terminating at Guildford. Two diagrams, both 4VEP.


The diagramming on the '97 timetable was something of a work of art: the aim appeared to be to use the 'best' available stock for off peak services to attract off-peak travel (if one assumes the 442 the most 'premium' stock, followed by CIGs, followed by VEPs). So all the Portsmouth fasts (xx00, xx40) were 442s off peak, and many Alton line services off-peak were CIG, rather than VEP. However as the evening peak approached, some of the 442s on the Portsmouth Direct were needed to double-up services heading to Bournemouth. So, some Portsmouth Directs (and xx10 Southampton services) were replaced by CIGs off Altons and Basingstoke stoppers, which were in turn replaced by VEPs from presumably Clapham Yard on the Alton and Basingstoke stoppers - which at that time of day were more suitable anyway for the slower services due to higher density.

Also I always thought the '97 timetable was a nice tradeoff between frequent services on a standardised pattern, and not overloading the railway. Not to mention interesting diagramming.

 

[Taunton]

The Southern Region tried to do away with both steam heating and vacuum brakes very early, and once the Bournemouth electrification was done converted most of their remaining Mk 1 hauled stock to electric heat/air brake. Their principal main line locomotives were of course the Class 33, which uniquely for a Modernisation Plan class did not have steam heating.

Dual heat was common, but very few vehicles were dual brake, which is a bit of a mechanical challenge.

When the Waterloo-Exeter line was changed from steam to Warships, which were steam heat/vacuum brake only, the Western Region took over responsibility for the associated coaching stock. About 1970 (someone will have the date) they were replaced by Class 33, which now meant dual heat vehicles at least.

Inter-Regional trains through Basingstoke were easier, as many came through from the AC lines north of Birmingham, and thus had dual heat stock.

 

[jfollows]

Also I always thought the '97 timetable was a nice tradeoff between frequent services on a standardised pattern, and not overloading the railway. Not to mention interesting diagramming.

Thank you for posting this analysis, it's something I find interesting.
I moved away from the Portsmouth area, firstly to Bristol in 1994 and then Manchester in 1996, so I have no memories of the timetable you describe. I just remember occasional 442s on the Portsmouth Direct on the few occasions I visited the area, which pleased me.

 

[D6130]

My recollection is that the 50s replaced 33s on the Exeter trains in about 1980, and (I'm less certain of this, but it seems likely) that the MkIIs replaced MkIs at about the same time

From my haulage notebook, it would appear that some WR air-braked mark 2 sets had already infiltrated the Waterloo-Exeter diagrams by the Summer of 1978. At that time I was a regular homeward-bound traveller on the 19 00 Waterloo-Exeter as far as Woking or - on
a Friday evening, when the office closed half an hour earlier - the 17 00 as far as Basingstoke. I was very rapidly racking-up my class 33 haulage.

From the start in 1967 there were summer Saturday reliefs between Waterloo and Bournemouth in the timetable which I believe were down for CIG sets. There was a photograph of one in Modern Railways at the time.

I suspect that these may have been formed of 4-VEP units for the first three or four years, as the SWD didn't have any CIGs until the arrival of the new-build units for the Portsmouth Direct Line in 1970-71, followed by the much larger batch for the Reading/Guildford via Aldershot lines in 1971-72.

Another peak hour curiosity on the SWD was the 8-VAB unit no. 8001, which operated high-capacity rush hour express services on the Bournemouth line between 1968 and 1974 and consisted of seven vehicles - including three motor coaches - which should have gone into VEP units 7739, 7741 and 7742, plus a loco-hauled mark 1 RB buffet car, which had been specially adapted with high level brake hoses and multiple unit control connections. This unit frequently - but not always - ran coupled to a conventional VEP unit and very, very occasionally a 4-TC. It's higher-than-usual power/weight ratio guaranteed a lively performance and it was popular with train performance recorders. It was disbanded and its vehicles reformed into their originally intended VEP units in December 1974, following delivery of the second batch of REPs.

 

[nw1]

Thank you for posting this analysis, it's something I find interesting.
I moved away from the Portsmouth area, firstly to Bristol in 1994 and then Manchester in 1996, so I have no memories of the timetable you describe. I just remember occasional 442s on the Portsmouth Direct on the few occasions I visited the area, which pleased me.

No problem! Will follow up with the 1999-2004 pattern soon, hopefully - the last timetable which differed significantly from the current one, and the last of the slam-door era.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2021 ==

From my haulage notebook, it would appear that some WR air-braked mark 2 sets had already infiltrated the Waterloo-Exeter diagrams by the Summer of 1978. At that time I was a regular homeward-bound traveller on the 19 00 Waterloo-Exeter as far as Woking or - on
a Friday evening, when the office closed half an hour earlier - the 17 00 as far as Basingstoke. I was very rapidly racking-up my class 33 haulage.

(Bournemouth reliefs) I suspect that these may have been formed of 4-VEP units for the first three or four years, as the SWD didn't have any CIGs until the arrival of the new-build units for the Portsmouth Direct Line in 1970-71, followed by the much larger batch for the Reading/Guildford via Aldershot lines in 1971-72.

Intreresting that they chose CIGs for the Reading line, when most services of that distance and stopping pattern were VEP-dominated, including the vast majority of services to relatively large towns such as Farnborough, Aldershot and Farnham, Perhaps they had lighter loadings than mainline services - so the lower-density CIGs were more suitable than the higher-density VEPs.

I did notice that the Reading lines had more CIGs than the main-line stoppers as late as 1983, though by 1985 (which saw significant peak-hour reductions) they had become more VEP-dominated. Not sure if the SW division swapped out some CIGs with one of the other divisions in 1985? The Central Division seemed to be very CIG-dominated around 1986/87, though not sure if it was a few years earlier.

With the plan to use suburban units on the Reading line (maybe it already does? Think it's still 450 though, IIRC) the units for the Reading lines have thus transitioned from main-line fast (CIGs) through main-line slower (VEPs, 458s and 450s), to suburban.

 

[D6130]

Intreresting that they chose CIGs for the Reading line, when most services of that distance and stopping pattern were VEP-dominated, including the vast majority of services to relatively large towns such as Farnborough, Aldershot and Farnham, Perhaps they had lighter loadings than mainline services - so the lower-density CIGs were more suitable than the higher-density VEPs.

I suspect that the SWD might have been pandering to the extremely well-heeled commuters from Bagshot, Camberley, Ascot, Sunningdale and Virginia Water.

 

[Taunton]

With the plan to use suburban units on the Reading line (maybe it already does? Think it's still 450 though, IIRC) the units for the Reading lines have thus transitioned from main-line fast (CIGs) through main-line slower (VEPs, 458s and 450s), to suburban.

Bit like my experience on Cambridge to Liverpool Street. When I first knew it, it was 3-across Class 47-hauled Mk 1 stock. 10 years later it was a Class 86 and 4-across Mk 2 stock. last time, a while ago, it was a 5-across emu.

The Reading line has one or more all-day regular diagrams for a 455 suburban unit, which it's normally been my misfortune to catch late afternoon from Bracknell to Waterloo.

It does seem a bit counter-intuitive for CIGs to have been built for the Reading line. I did wonder if, as when the BILs (very much outer suburban) were life expired in the 1960s, they got the main line COR units displaced from the Portsmouth lines, and when these came to be replaced a few years later it was perceived as like-for-like.

 

[nw1]

Bit like my experience on Cambridge to Liverpool Street. When I first knew it, it was 3-across Class 47-hauled Mk 1 stock. 10 years later it was a Class 86 and 4-across Mk 2 stock. last time, a while ago, it was a 5-across emu.

The Reading line has one or more all-day regular diagrams for a 455 suburban unit, which it's normally been my misfortune to catch late afternoon from Bracknell to Waterloo.

It does seem a bit counter-intuitive for CIGs to have been built for the Reading line. I did wonder if, as when the BILs (very much outer suburban) were life expired in the 1960s, they got the main line COR units displaced from the Portsmouth lines, and when these came to be replaced a few years later it was perceived as like-for-like.

Yes, I heard that CORs went from the Direct to Reading so that could explain it, and then they perhaps gradually introduced more and more VEPs over the years so it would be un-noticeable.

By the early 80s there were certainly no 'dedicated' CIGs for Reading, as all the South Western Division CIGs appeared on the Portsmouth Direct - the older batch (7337-7357, I think) and newer (7403-7426, I think). They were also all allocated to Fratton. But maybe there never were, and that the older and newer CIGs were in a common 'Portsmouth/Reading pool' from the outset.

 

[30907]

By the early 80s there were certainly no 'dedicated' CIGs for Reading, as all the South Western Division CIGs appeared on the Portsmouth Direct - the older batch (7337-7357, I think) and newer (7403-7426, I think). They were also all allocated to Fratton. But maybe there never were, and that the older and newer CIGs were in a common 'Portsmouth/Reading pool' from the outset.

It does seem a bit counter-intuitive for CIGs to have been built for the Reading line. I did wonder if, as when the BILs (very much outer suburban) were life expired in the 1960s, they got the main line COR units displaced from the Portsmouth lines, and when these came to be replaced a few years later it was perceived as like-for-like.

My guess is that the Readings were relatively quiet back then and didn't demand VEPs for capacity, whereas Basingstoke stoppers were already full and standing. I also wonder if VEPs were more expensive, with all those doors?

 

[43096]

I did notice that the Reading lines had more CIGs than the main-line stoppers as late as 1983, though by 1985 (which saw significant peak-hour reductions) they had become more VEP-dominated. Not sure if the SW division swapped out some CIGs with one of the other divisions in 1985? The Central Division seemed to be very CIG-dominated around 1986/87, though not sure if it was a few years earlier.

With the plan to use suburban units on the Reading line (maybe it already does? Think it's still 450 though, IIRC) the units for the Reading lines have thus transitioned from main-line fast (CIGs) through main-line slower (VEPs, 458s and 450s), to suburban.

Even towards the end of slam door stock, there were still regular CIG and CEP workings to Reading. Since SWR took over the decline has been more rapid, with the ultimate downgrade to inner suburban stock still to come.

The Reading line has one or more all-day regular diagrams for a 455 suburban unit, which it's normally been my misfortune to catch late afternoon from Bracknell to Waterloo.

I don't think there are any 455s booked to Reading now. The weekday service is a mix of 450 and 458 currently, with an improvement to all 458s at weekends.

That's not to say 455s won't appear if they're short, but I don't think they are now diagrammed.

 

[Snow1964]

My guess is that the Readings were relatively quiet back then and didn't demand VEPs for capacity, whereas Basingstoke stoppers were already full and standing. I also wonder if VEPs were more expensive, with all those doors?

My memory was a lot of 2HAPs (in multiple formation) were used on the lines through Staines for a while, they were also used on stopping trains via Weybridge. I also thought more VEPs (or an updated equivalent) would have been built if there hadn’t been so many HAP units. The Lymington shuttle was also a 2-HAP for most of 1970s (units would change every few days so they must have been a transfer working somewhere)

A number of them had their first class downgraded from early 1970s to about 1980 and were used on Windsor and Hounslow loop lines, They were known as 2-SAP, not sure why First Class was restored in 1980 but it was about same time as the 508s entered service.

 

[SWTCommuter]

A slightly curious 1981 working was the 0716 from Southampton calling at Winchester and Basingstoke only, arriving Waterloo 0840. This had no buffet and from my reading of the timetable, would not form either the 0935 or the 0945 down (which would be formed from the 0900 and 0919 arrivals respectively). Wonder what stock formed this... a rare VEP express? Or a 73-hauled set of some kind? Or a rare working of CIGs beyond Brookwood: I don't remember seeing CIGs on any 'main line' service beyond Brookwood until around 1988 but this may have been an exception. Whatever, this would have been a prime commuter working from Southampton to London so would be interesting if anyone knew the stock allocation of this service.

I caught the 0716 from Southampton for a number of years starting in 1983. It came up from Bournemouth in two portions which joined at Southampton Central: a stopper which arrived at Southampton at about 0710, and a fast which arrived at about 0714. Presumably the portion working precluded the use of the more usual REP+TC+TC combination.

The front portion was almost always a VEP, though an EPB might turn up on a Monday if stock had been displaced during weekend engineering works. On one of the rare occasions that I travelled in the rear portion it was a CIG but I think a VEP was more usual. I once walked back along the train to find the guard to let him know a door had blown open in the front carriage and it was all VEPs that day.

The 0657 was a REP+TC+TC and usually quite busy by the time it reached Southampton so the front portion of the 0716 was a safer bet for getting a seat if you didn't mind travelling on a VEP. it was well filled after Basingstoke though. IIRC, the 0657 was the service that came to grief at Clapham Junction.

 

[Taunton]

I seem to recall that the HAPs were initially mostly on the SE Division; they were completed well before the Bournemouth electrification, with just a few at end of construction being on the SW. One of the aspects of the new 1967 timetable was the number of trains dividing at outer suburban places like Woking, and even Brookwood for a while. There weren't enough VEPs for a full replacement, and there were still many BIL diagrams. This gave all sorts of incompatible reattachment difficulties, particularly on days when the service had been disrupted, and eventually there was a switcharound when many more HAPs came over and the service could be wholly EP stock.

I never quite got the thing about the high level jumper cables accessible from the platform, as if joined on one side it would not work if at detachment this was now on the other side. Someone once wrote here that they were scheduled into platforms on the appropriate side at Waterloo, but apart from this being operationally restrictive, little unhitching took place at Waterloo, it happened on the return to the country, when in most cases the arrival platform was indeed on the opposite side to that which they had departed to Waterloo from. Any ideas?

 

[nw1]

I caught the 0716 from Southampton for a number of years starting in 1983. It came up from Bournemouth in two portions which joined at Southampton Central: a stopper which arrived at Southampton at about 0710, and a fast which arrived at about 0714. Presumably the portion working precluded the use of the more usual REP+TC+TC combination.

The front portion was almost always a VEP, though an EPB might turn up on a Monday if stock had been displaced during weekend engineering works. On one of the rare occasions that I travelled in the rear portion it was a CIG but I think a VEP was more usual. I once walked back along the train to find the guard to let him know a door had blown open in the front carriage and it was all VEPs that day.

OK thanks, so looks like a rare 'VEP express' then! An EPB (occasionally) on a Southampton-Waterloo express must have been something!

Another reason for it not being a REP/8TC combination was presumably that it was a peak additional, all the REP/TCs appeared to be on 'all day' diagrams with no peak-only diagrams.

Another 'VEP express' was the 0930 Haslemere-Waterloo 'timetabled relief' (Guildford, Woking only) which was something like 8VEP/2HAP or 12VEP (depending on the year). Its purpose was to relieve overcrowding on the regular fast '81' immediately behind it, which was the first off-peak service of the day. It worked down to Haslemere ECS, presumably off an early peak service into Waterloo.

Later in the 80s a similar 1030 was added, with similar stock IIRC. This was I think summer-only, though may have ran all year in its second year of operation.

Both of these disappeared with the Greyhound timetable reorganisation in 1989, to be replaced by splitting the regular '73' stopper at about the same time into a '72' (slow to Haslemere then semi-fast), and a Haslemere-starting '73' (all to Surbiton as usual)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Aug 2021 ==

My memory was a lot of 2HAPs (in multiple formation) were used on the lines through Staines for a while, they were also used on stopping trains via Weybridge. I also thought more VEPs (or an updated equivalent) would have been built if there hadn’t been so many HAP units. The Lymington shuttle was also a 2-HAP for most of 1970s (units would change every few days so they must have been a transfer working somewhere)

A number of them had their first class downgraded from early 1970s to about 1980 and were used on Windsor and Hounslow loop lines, They were known as 2-SAP, not sure why First Class was restored in 1980 but it was about same time as the 508s entered service.

I do remember seeing a carriage working book of the Reading in 1985 and there seemed to be quite a few HAPs about in the peak, though there were also plenty on the main line too (who remembers the 1734 'HAP special' to Basingstoke and Alton in 1983?)

 

[Beebman]

I do remember seeing a carriage working book of the Reading in 1985 and there seemed to be quite a few HAPs about in the peak, though there were also plenty on the main line too (who remembers the 1734 'HAP special' to Basingstoke and Alton in 1983?)

I commuted from Winnersh Triangle to Waterloo for about a year in 1986/87. The morning train I regularly took was a combination of two HAPs and a VEP.

 

[Grecian 1998]

My recollection is that the 50s replaced 33s on the Exeter trains in about 1980, and (I'm less certain of this, but it seems likely) that the MkIIs replaced MkIs at about the same time.

That's what I've read - the successful introduction of HSTs to Paddington - Penzance services in 1979 meant that both class 50s and Mk IIs could be cascaded to Waterloo - Exeter services in 1980.

 

[D6130]

By the early 80s there were certainly no 'dedicated' CIGs for Reading, as all the South Western Division CIGs appeared on the Portsmouth Direct - the older batch (7337-7357, I think) and newer (7403-7426, I think). They were also all allocated to Fratton. But maybe there never were, and that the older and newer CIGs were in a common 'Portsmouth/Reading pool' from the outset.

At the time of delivery in the early 'seventies, CIGs 7337-7356 and BIGs 7049-7058 were allocated to Fratton for the Portsmouth line fasts and semi-fast, while 7377-7399 and 7406-7426 were allocated to Wimbledon for the Reading and Guildford via Ascot & Aldershot services, plus the Portsmouth line peak hour and Summer Saturday extras. All the other CIGs and BIGs were allocated to Brighton. The final CIG - 7438 - was officially built as a replacement for CEP no. 7181 which was written-off in the Marden accident, but for ease of maintenance and driver training it went to Brighton, which moved one of its early CEPs to Ramsgate in exchange. Sometime in the late 'seventies/early eighties, 7377-7399 were transferred to Brighton in return for more VEPs and 7406-7426 moved to Fratton but, in practice, remained on the same services as before most of the time.

 

[nw1]

That's what I've read - the successful introduction of HSTs to Paddington - Penzance services in 1979 meant that both class 50s and Mk IIs could be cascaded to Waterloo - Exeter services in 1980.

Going OT - and this may have come up before - but what was the reason for two Paddington-Penzance and v.v services (0945 and 1345 or so off Paddington) switching back from HST to 50+newer Mk-II for the 1984/85 timetable? Was a complex diagram involving seating stock from sleepers, according to another thread from a while back. I know in 1983/4 it was solid HST.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

I commuted from Winnersh Triangle to Waterloo for about a year in 1986/87. The morning train I regularly took was a combination of two HAPs and a VEP.

That was quite a classic peak-time combination: there weren't enough VEPs to run all peak services so HAPs were brought in particularly for peak services. One regular working I saw on the way home from school was the 1630 '75' stopper from Guildford to Waterloo via Woking which was 4HAP/4VEP, later (1985) 2HAP/8VEP, and later still (1986) 8CIG when it became an '83' from Portsmouth (the hour of the one-off 50-hauled Portsmouth-Waterloo which came off a Plymouth- Portsmouth service, discussed in another thread; this replaced the regular '82' path north of Guildford so the '82' that hour was an '83' looped at Guildford, which took the '75' path).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2021 ==

At the time of delivery in the early 'seventies, CIGs 7337-7356 and BIGs 7049-7058 were allocated to Fratton for the Portsmouth line fasts and semi-fast, while 7377-7399 and 7406-7426 were allocated to Wimbledon for the Reading and Guildford via Ascot & Aldershot services, plus the Portsmouth line peak hour and Summer Saturday extras. All the other CIGs and BIGs were allocated to Brighton. The final CIG - 7438 - was officially built as a replacement for CEP no. 7181 which was written-off in the Marden accident, but for ease of maintenance and driver training it went to Brighton, which moved one of its early CEPs to Ramsgate in exchange. Sometime in the late 'seventies/early eighties, 7377-7399 were transferred to Brighton in return for more VEPs and 7406-7426 moved to Fratton but, in practice, remained on the same services as before most of the time.

Thanks for that - very interesting. Never knew the South Western division had so many CIGs. I am fairly sure the South Western also picked up 7357 and 7403-5 too by 1982/83 - and certainly by 1983 the 74xx range was very common on Portsmouth Direct services off-peak so their allocation to Reading must have lapsed by then.

Also lost were BIGs 7049/50, they were definitely not present by 1982/83 immediately before the BEPs were introduced. We had 7051-58, IIRC. There were only five BIG diagrams by that stage: the four regular '81' diagrams which ran all day, plus a fifth with worked one up morning peak from Portsmouth (0756 from Haslemere) and one down evening peak (1820 from Waterloo, which was actually an '82' and called at several of the smaller stations). On Saturdays, strangely, there were also 5 BIG diagrams: again the four regular '81's, but also one of the four '82' diagrams (0918, 1318, 1718 out of Waterloo) which was 4CIG/4BIG (later 4BEP). Not sure why they used a BIG/BEP on that one, as it didn't actually have an open buffet, and none of the other '82's had any kind of buffet stock.

 

[4630]

The Lymington shuttle was also a 2-HAP for most of 1970s (units would change every few days so they must have been a transfer working somewhere)

I don’t have my copies of the Working Time Table and Carriage Working Notices available right now, but if IIRC the HAP for the Lymington line worked in each morning from Eastleigh (Monday-Friday).

I’m not sure about Saturday and Sundays as, during my time in the area in the 1970s and 80s, the line was generally worked by a VEP at weekends - certainly during the period of each summer timetable - which might have come ECS from Bournemouth.

 

[nw1]

I don’t have my copies of the Working Time Table and Carriage Working Notices available right now, but if IIRC the HAP for the Lymington line worked in each morning from Eastleigh (Monday-Friday).

I’m not sure about Saturday and Sundays as, during my time in the area in the 1970s and 80s, the line was generally worked by a VEP at weekends - certainly during the period of each summer timetable - which might have come ECS from Bournemouth.

Never saw the Lymingtons *regularly* until the very late 80s, and the 90s, by which time it was a VEP on all days of the week. Possibly it became a CIG around the millennium. On the Network Day, 21 June 1986, it was also a VEP, which would accord with your observations. On summer Saturdays there was also a through Waterloo working departing at something like 1000, formed of 8VEP, with the regular shuttle (may only have been hourly at that time) waiting at Brockenhurst.

 

[4630]

Never saw the Lymingtons *regularly* until the very late 80s, and the 90s, by which time it was a VEP on all days of the week. Possibly it became a CIG around the millennium. On the Network Day, 21 June 1986, it was also a VEP, which would accord with your observations. On summer Saturdays there was also a through Waterloo working departing at something like 1000, formed of 8VEP, with the regular shuttle (may only have been hourly at that time) waiting at Brockenhurst.

Yes, at that time the Lymington line was an hourly shuttle.

Probably worth adding that prior to the dedicated reversible single line to the former Lymington Junction being opened in October 1978 (and the consequent closure of Lymington Junction and Brockenhurst ‘B’ signal boxes), the arrival of the hourly incoming service from Lymington was mostly to Brockenhurst platform 1.

After detraining its passengers the stock then did a shunt move to platform 4 ready to form the next departure to Lymington.

 

[181]

The 0657 was a REP+TC+TC and usually quite busy by the time it reached Southampton so the front portion of the 0716 was a safer bet for getting a seat if you didn't mind travelling on a VEP. it was well filled after Basingstoke though. IIRC, the 0657 was the service that came to grief at Clapham Junction.

It was the 06.14 from Poole (actually starting from Branksome due to vandalism on the line), which is probably about right for being the 06.57 from Southampton.