Why is high speed rail in the UK so expensive to construct?

[HSTEd]

Why would Londoners do that when, for a fraction if the fare and time they can visit multitude of nearer seaside resorts?

Because they consider the nearer seaside resorts to be inferior?

There is a reason Londoners go places other than Southend after all.

 

[Ianno87]

There is a reason Londoners go places other than Southend after all.

And indeed they do that already. It doesn't need a high speed line to Cornwall.

(Incidentally, HS2 will bring "nice" seaside resorts like Southport or Scarborough much closer to London than they are today)

 

[SynthD]

Maybe high speed rail is expensive because of demands for a one size fits all solution. The Channel Tunnel to London to Birmingham and towards Scotland have far greater demands for both speed and capacity. London to Cardiff has some demand, and that was the main target of the electrification (and the speed upgrades? I don't know how much they were tied together). I can see the good in electrifying and raising speeds from Bristol to Exeter. Can what happened between Reading and Bristol Parkway be repeated from there to Exeter?

 

[The Ham]

Assume a terminus in the vicinity of Camborne [reasonably central for many of the popular destinations], and routing via Bristol - I make it roughly ~401km or so to OOC.

With non stop operation average speeds of around 300km/h are probably achievable.

Which would be about ~80 minutes.

A train stopping every ~30km or so could probably achieve about 170km/h average, for about 2hr20

Not wanting to go too far off thread, but I've suggested elsewhere that an Eastern HS line (serving Cambridge and northwards) starting at it's own London terminus which is then linked to Stratford and OOC and onwards to the west country via another HS line would give us a good base network.

The line to the west country could go to Salisbury with a spur to Southampton and westwards with services towards Bristol/South Wales and to Devon and Cornwall.

Although how far west of Exeter or Plymouth any new line reaches would be open for debate as the population of Cornwall is not quite 600,000 and spread over quite a large area (the top 5 towns don't even total 150,000).

 

[Irascible]

Although how far west of Exeter or Plymouth any new line reaches would be open for debate as the population of Cornwall is not quite 600,000 and spread over quite a large area (the top 5 towns don't even total 150,000).

HS rail into Cornwall seems like something to be saved for when the nation has nothing much else to spend it on - just the equivalent to the north half of the current WCML ( to pick something else that refuses to go in straight lines ) would be a significant upgrade west of Exeter. I am genuinely wondering how much a new route of 200kmh ( or slightly quicker ) would cost to build & maintain relative to HSR spec; we don't *have* to build everything to run at 400kmh, & you gain in modern station design too.

 

[The Ham]

HS rail into Cornwall seems like something to be saved for when the nation has nothing much else to spend it on - just the equivalent to the north half of the current WCML ( to pick something else that refuses to go in straight lines ) would be a significant upgrade west of Exeter. I am genuinely wondering how much a new route of 200kmh ( or slightly quicker ) would cost to build & maintain relative to HSR spec; we don't *have* to build everything to run at 400kmh, & you gain in modern station design too.

I'd like to see improvements, however I would expect that the Dawlish Avoiding Line (DAL) at a cost of over £1bn would likely be all we could expect any time "soon", however that really only comes into its own if there's capacity to run more services from London, otherwise it would be fairly lightly used.

It's why I've suggested in the past that if we're going to spend that kind of money we'd probably be better off using the extra paths from Waterloo created by Crossrail 2 and upgrading the WofE line through Salisbury and reopening the Okehampron route as it would likely have a better BCR.

As whilst few would travel from London to Plymouth (although depending on the departure time it could be "faster" than waiting for the next service from Paddington depending on where you are starting from, it also has the potential to be more frequent and cheaper, which could also see some opt for it over the express services by GWR) it would likely reduce the need to travel via Reading for many in the SWR area, freeing up some capacity on the GWR services.

If there was an equally easy way to increase capacity in the GWR route that would likely be a better option, however as things stand there's not and so (regardless of what went before) I think that's the better option.

On the speed costs, generally once you go above 115mph the cost difference between 125mph and anything beyond 140mph is fairly limited, as I understand it. In the same way that the cost difference between a 60mph road and a 30mph road is mostly due to the (typical) extra lorry content of the higher speed road and so the overall cost increases are limited.

 

[Bald Rick]

There’s not going to be a Dawlish avoiding line, and any paths freed up by Crossrail 2 - if it ever happens - will go to find the best benefit, which will be Guildford / Portsmouth / Southampton / Basingstoke / Alton / Salisbury.

 

[The Ham]

There’s not going to be a Dawlish avoiding line, and any paths freed up by Crossrail 2 - if it ever happens - will go to find the best benefit, which will be Guildford / Portsmouth / Southampton / Basingstoke / Alton / Salisbury.

Indeed, the point I was making was that with an extension of the Salisbury services to Plymouth would likely be a better use of resources if we wished to improve connections to the West Country.

 

[Brush 4]

Only those in the European rail industry will know why there projects are done for less cost and, faster than the UK. I'd like to see their methodology though.

 

[Meerkat]

Only those in the European rail industry will know why there projects are done for less cost and, faster than the UK. I'd like to see their methodology though.

Are the German and Alpine projects much cheaper and quicker?
have read a few things about them going over budget, being late, and the planning troubles they have because they go through populated areas with noise concerns.

 

[Ianno87]

Are the German and Alpine projects much cheaper and quicker?
have read a few things about them going over budget, being late, and the planning troubles they have because they go through populated areas with noise concerns.

Example: In Germany the Efurt-Leipzig/Halle took 24 years from initial planning starting (1991) to opening (2015). Pretty comparable to HS2's timescales.

 

[Bald Rick]

Only those in the European rail industry will know why there projects are done for less cost and, faster than the UK. I'd like to see their methodology though.

Example: In Germany the Efurt-Leipzig/Halle took 24 years from initial planning starting (1991) to opening (2015). Pretty comparable to HS2's timescales.

Example 2: LGV SEA (Tours to Bordeaux). Initial studies 1992. ‘Public Debate’ (equivalent to our Parliamentary / TWAO process) 1995-1998. Opened 2017. This is for a line that is entirely in open country, no stations, no tunnels, and practically no neighbours.

Example 3: LGV Bordeaux - Toulouse. Initial studies late 90s. Public inquiry concluded 2005. Compulsory Purchase powers granted 2008. Construction might start in 3 years time, and it could be open in 2030. Again this is largely through open country, albeit a couple of (simple) stations will be built on this one.

 

[gallafent]

Example 3: LGV Bordeaux Tours.

Bordeaux Toulouse?

I thought I remembered reading that that one had really been kicked into the long grass now (unfortunately!), with a line to Irun (or maybe somewhere else, but anyway, essentially to the Spanish border) being preferred, to link with the Spanish high speed network (and in particular Barcelona) … but I might be misremembering! Wikipedia seems to think that Toulouse and Spanish Border lines both still in prospect, late this decade or early next. … but yes, quite slow indeed …

 

[Irascible]

Indeed, the point I was making was that with an extension of the Salisbury services to Plymouth would likely be a better use of resources if we wished to improve connections to the West Country.

Perhaps - with Plymouth aiming to grow by 50% ( and Exeter double in size, although it's at least better connected ) then it might get a bit difficult. I'm nowhere near Plymouth so I'm not in any better position to find out how they're going to move all these people around than anyone else is, but I'll at least try & see what their transport plan is... hopefully a bit more than just some optimism.

 

[Bald Rick]

Bordeaux Toulouse?

Yes, my mega-typo, corrected.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jul 2021 ==

I thought I remembered reading that that one had really been kicked into the long grass now (unfortunately!), with a line to Irun (or maybe somewhere else, but anyway, essentially to the Spanish border) being preferred, to link with the Spanish high speed network (and in particular Barcelona) … but I might be misremembering! Wikipedia seems to think that Toulouse and Spanish Border lines both still in prospect, late this decade or early next. … but yes, quite slow indeed …

There was much local angst - I drove between the two 11 years ago and there were “LGV - NON!” signs everywhere. It took another round of ‘local discussion’ (after the decisions had been taken), and various arguments about funding before it got the nod.

The branch to Dax was approved in 2016. But no funding agreement yet, so unlikely to be in service before the mid 2030s. And as high speed lines go, it’s just about as easy as they get.

Beyond Dax is a separate project; this section is proposed to be 220km/h and mixed use with freight. That’s further behind still.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bordeaux Toulouse?

I thought I remembered reading that that one had really been kicked into the long grass now (unfortunately!), with a line to Irun (or maybe somewhere else, but anyway, essentially to the Spanish border) being preferred, to link with the Spanish high speed network (and in particular Barcelona) … but I might be misremembering! Wikipedia seems to think that Toulouse and Spanish Border lines both still in prospect, late this decade or early next. … but yes, quite slow indeed …

Montpellier-Perpignan is now back on the agenda after being put out to grass for years.
There is of course already a cross-border HSL from Perpignan through the Pyrenees, which joins up with the Spanish HSL to Barcelona/Madrid at Figueres.

The Hendaye LGV if/when built will split off the Bordeaux-Toulouse LGV, with a Spanish HSL (or upgraded dual-gauge classic line) also reaching the border at Irun.
One day Paris-Madrid with be high-speed either way, with the western route being probably faster by then.

 

[Brush 4]

Line	Speed	Length	Construction began	Construction completed or expected start of revenue services
LGV Sud-Est	270 km/h, then 300 km/h	409 km	1976	1983
LGV Atlantique	300 km/h	279 km	1985	1990
LGV Rhone-Alpes	300 km/h	115 km	1989	1994
LGV Nord	300 km/h	333 km	1989	1996
LGV Interconnexion Est	270 km/h	57 km	1990	1996
LGV Méditerrannée	320 km/h	250 km	1996	2001
LGV Est Européen	320 km/h	406 km	2002	2016
LGV Perpignan-Barcelona	300 km/h	45 km	2004	2012
LGV Rhin-Rhone	320 km/h	138 km	2006	2011
LGV Sud Europe Atlantique	320 km/h	302 km	2012	2017
LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire	320 km/h	182 km	2012	2017
LGV Nîmes-Montpellier	220 km/h	80 km	2013	2018
LGV Bordeaux-Toulouse	320 km/h	222 km	Unknown	~ 2025
LGV Bordeaux-Espagne	320 km/h	251 km	Unknown	~ 2032
LGV Montpellier-Perpignan	Unknown	150 km	Unknown	Unknown
Lyon-Turin	300 km/h	272 km	2007	2030

This chart outlines the Euro network development. Generally 5-6 years construction phase, with a few a bit longer.​

 

[miami]

So Lyon-Turin, 272km, has an estimated cost of £21b - £77m per km. Excluding the tunnel it's £14b for 215km, or £65m per km.

At 65m per km That would put HS2's estimated cost at £35b.

However the HS2 estimated price includes major new stations and remodelling (including city centre), extensive tunnelling in cities, and rolling stock. How much would HS2 be without that?

 

[stuu]

Phase 2a is open countryside with no major city centre works, its still well north of £120m per mile

 

[Bald Rick]

Line	Speed	Length	Construction began	Construction completed or expected start of revenue services
LGV Sud-Est	270 km/h, then 300 km/h	409 km	1976	1983
LGV Atlantique	300 km/h	279 km	1985	1990
LGV Rhone-Alpes	300 km/h	115 km	1989	1994
LGV Nord	300 km/h	333 km	1989	1996
LGV Interconnexion Est	270 km/h	57 km	1990	1996
LGV Méditerrannée	320 km/h	250 km	1996	2001
LGV Est Européen	320 km/h	406 km	2002	2016
LGV Perpignan-Barcelona	300 km/h	45 km	2004	2012
LGV Rhin-Rhone	320 km/h	138 km	2006	2011
LGV Sud Europe Atlantique	320 km/h	302 km	2012	2017
LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire	320 km/h	182 km	2012	2017
LGV Nîmes-Montpellier	220 km/h	80 km	2013	2018
LGV Bordeaux-Toulouse	320 km/h	222 km	Unknown	~ 2025
LGV Bordeaux-Espagne	320 km/h	251 km	Unknown	~ 2032
LGV Montpellier-Perpignan	Unknown	150 km	Unknown	Unknown
Lyon-Turin	300 km/h	272 km	2007	2030

This chart outlines the Euro network development. Generally 5-6 years construction phase, with a few a bit longer.​

Bordeaux - Toulouse is slated to start construction in 2024, in service 2030.

How much would HS2 be without that?

Very much cheaper. Euston alone is something like £8bn.

 

[The Planner]

Phase 2a is open countryside with no major city centre works, its still well north of £120m per mile

Crewe South is a serious bit of remodeling. Is it £120m per mile? Phase 2a is 36 miles or 58km. The costs are in the £4 - 4.5 billion range according to Construction News. That equates to £69m per Km at 4 billion or £77m per Km at 4.5 billion, not a lot of difference between Lyon to Turin if my maths is correct.

 

[miami]

Phase 2a is open countryside with no major city centre works, its still well north of £120m per mile

So £75m per km. Sure that's more than the non-Mont d'Ambin part, but not an extreme amount more. Does that include Crewe remodelling too?

It's also designed for 220kph operation, not even 250, let alone 330/360 of HS2. On the other hand it includes a parallel freight line for much of the length.

 

[Bald Rick]

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Jul 2021 ==

Phase 2a is open countryside with no major city centre works, its still well north of £120m per mile

The last few km into Crewe will be in the region of £1bn alone.

 

[miami]

The last few km into Crewe will be in the region of £1bn alone.

Couldn't you just buy Crewe and flatten it for that price

 

[The exile]

Example: In Germany the Efurt-Leipzig/Halle took 24 years from initial planning starting (1991) to opening (2015). Pretty comparable to HS2's timescales.

And that was with a political impetus behind “ reunification projects” that puts the “ levelling up agenda” ( if there is such a thing) in the shade.

 

[The Planner]

So £75m per km. Sure that's more than the non-Mont d'Ambin part, but not an extreme amount more. Does that include Crewe remodelling too?

It's also designed for 220kph operation, not even 250, let alone 330/360 of HS2. On the other hand it includes a parallel freight line for much of the length.

Crewe itself is technically nothing to do with HS2, that is a NR scheme. 2A ends where it dumps itself at Basford Hall.

 

[camflyer]

Skegness is one town. Like Brighton, or Bournemouth, or Blackpool.

Cornwall is a county, with dozens of holiday towns. Bude, Padstow, Newquay, Perranporth, St Ives, Porthleven, Falmouth, St Austell, Mevagissey, Looe, and more. Which part of Cornwall would your line serve for these day trippers?

and Hove actually.

 

[miami]

HS2 Leeds leg in limbo as work suddenly stops on £100bn project

But work is continuing on the Birmingham to Manchester stretch

www.leeds-live.co.uk

HS2 chief executive Mark Thurston said the Department of Transport has ordered him to halt work on the Leeds leg.

"At the moment, we are only working on Phase 2b West (Crewe to Manchester)," he said. "We are only focused on that."

There was also an admission from West Midlands Mayor Andy Street that the Leeds leg could be hit by "a serious delay".

The revelations in the House of Commons inquiry come after previous reassurances from government that Leeds will see the benefits of HS2.

I guess the cost is a concern

 

[paul1609]

Skegness is one town. Like Brighton, or Bournemouth, or Blackpool.

Not really Skegness has a population of 19k, the Brighton/Worthing/Littlehampton conurbation is the 12th largest in the UK with a population of 485k..

 

[The Ham]

HS2 Leeds leg in limbo as work suddenly stops on £100bn project

But work is continuing on the Birmingham to Manchester stretch

www.leeds-live.co.uk

I guess the cost is a concern

Maybe, although it could also be that HS2 have been told to halt whilst others look at the bigger picture with regards NPR/HS3.