Valid Routing: Merstham to Clapham Jucnction via Redhill

[deoiub]

Hi all. I have a routing question which I feel I'm getting conflicting information on.

I currently have a monthly travelcard for Merstham (MHM) to London Zones 2-6. In December, I will change this to an annual travelcard with the same points.

Traveling between Merstham to Clapham Junction, I currently get the 17:41 from Merstham to East Croydon and change, but occasionally miss it by a minute or two and I rely on the 17:56 to East Croydon. However, looking forward to the new timetable for the new year, the 17:56 has been removed. The first train after the 17:41 is the 18:11. Meaning if I miss the first train by a minute I'll be waiting on the platform for 29 minutes.

A journey planner request for this time frame suggests the following option:

- 17:50 Merstham to Redhill (arriving 17:53)
- 17:57 Redhill to Clapham Junction

It's this journey that I can't decide if it's a valid route on a Merstham to Zone 2 monthly/annual travelcard.

The journey would require 'doubling back', as the Redhill to Clapham Junction train would travel back through Merstham (but not stopping at Merstham).

I submitted a question to National Rail on their website and received the response:

"Thank you for your email regarding travel on a season ticket valid from Merstham to London zones 2. I can confirm that travel via Redhill will not be valid on this ticket as it is not a permitted route."

But they did suggest I should contact Southern directly. I wrote Southern and their response only apologized for the reduction in the timetable, without even attempting to address the 'is this a valid journey' question.

So far, it seems that no, this would not be a valid journey for this season ticket. However, here is why I feel it may be a valid journey:

On the National Rail website when using the season ticket calculator for Merstham to Clapham Junction the option returned says:

" Merstham (MHM) to 2-6
Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets(Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner)"

Which this journey is returned on the Journey Planner.

Also on the Southern Railway site when pricing a season ticket I can explictly say, "via Redhill" and the ticket price remains the same.

So now I'm stuck between National Rail telling me in e-mail that 'it is not a valid journey', but information on the websites leading me to believe it is.

Anyone care to weigh in on this one?

Sorry for the lengthy post, but I felt there was alot of information to convey.

Thanks,
Duane-O

 

[wibble]

Travelling south via Redhill is valid. Any journey given by the website is valid unless it tells you that you need to buy more than on ticket for your journey. When you get the train times, click on 'details'. If you look just above the dark blue box called 'Journey details' it will tell you if you need to buy more than one ticket for your journey.

As Merstham to Clapham Junction via Redhill does not say that you need to buy more than one ticket for the journey, you can travel this way.

If you try Merstham to Clapham Junction via Guildford, it will tell you to buy more than one ticket and your journey is not valid.

 

[MikeWh]

Well that's an interesting one. Clapham Junction to Redhill itself does seem to be slightly more expensive yet the journey planner does route you via Redhill some of the time. If you have the option to include via Redhill when ordering the ticket then select that. It looks like no-one should be buying a season to Redhill if that's the case because I can't see any benefit for the extra nearly £10 a week.

Edit: Can they stop you leaving the station at Redhill? That would be the only drawback if they can. But a season is usually valid between any points on it's validity.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I think it could be an error in the system relating to the 'Quarry Lines', but equally it could be something to do with Redhill Group also. Fastis is showing a ticket to be valid via Earlswood also, but not Salfords (Surrey).

Earlswood is where the Quarry Lines rejoin the Redhill Lines to reform the Brighton Mainline, having been split between Coulsdon and Purley, and it could be that the Journey Planners don't allow travel to Salfords because they see it as passing through Earlswood twice.

Thats all theory mind you, I can't actually say why it is shown as valid when I don't believe it should be.

 

[deoiub]

Travelling south via Redhill is valid. Any journey given by the website is valid unless it tells you that you need to buy more than on ticket for your journey. When you get the train times, click on 'details'. If you look just above the dark blue box called 'Journey details' it will tell you if you need to buy more than one ticket for your journey.

As Merstham to Clapham Junction via Redhill does not say that you need to buy more than one ticket for the journey, you can travel this way.

To further add to my confusion, I was just playing with Journey Planner and see the following:

Searching Merstham to Clapham Junction on 17/01/11 (new timetable) at 17:45. The 17:50 option via Redhill is shown. Details don't indicate an extra ticket is needed.

However searching for Merstham to East Croydon at the same time, returns the same 17:50 option via Redhill. this time though it does say
"You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey."

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....However searching for Merstham to East Croydon at the same time, returns the same 17:50 option via Redhill. this time though it does say
"You need to buy more than one ticket for this journey."

This is because the routeing points for Merstham are Croydon Group and Redhill Group. Where there is a common routeing point, the shortest route and direct trains are the only valid routes.

 

[deoiub]

This is because the routeing points for Merstham are Croydon Group and Redhill Group. Where there is a common routeing point, the shortest route and direct trains are the only valid routes.

Perhaps this is why National Rail responded to my question by telling me "it is not a permitted route."

I just looked at the wording of my question to them, and I did pose it specifically as travel to East Croydon. My thinking being any train I took would travel via East Croydon and that would make the question more straightforward. I assumed having travelzones 2-6 on the ticket ECR to CLJ wouldn't change anything.

I'll redirect a question to them, changing the destination to Clapham Junction instead of East Croydon. Perhaps they will give me a different answer this time.

-
Duane-O
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I just received a prompt response from customer.relations@nationalrail.co.uk

It does turn out that my attempt to simplify my original question to them making my destination East Croydon instead of Clapham Junction is why they told me the route was invalid.

In this response they say:

"If you have a Travelcard from Merstham to London Zones 2-6, you will be able to use this ticket to travel from Merstham to Clapham Junction changing at Redhill and East Croydon. This is a permitted route."

It all seems a bit daft to me, since the first question asked about the same season ticket. Surely I'm allowed to break the journey at East Croydon if I choose to, even if I travel via Redhill.

Thanks for the help, it was only with information from this thread that I have reached a clear answer.

 

[paul1609]

I think it could be an error in the system relating to the 'Quarry Lines', but equally it could be something to do with Redhill Group also. Fastis is showing a ticket to be valid via Earlswood also, but not Salfords (Surrey).

Earlswood is where the Quarry Lines rejoin the Redhill Lines to reform the Brighton Mainline, having been split between Coulsdon and Purley, and it could be that the Journey Planners don't allow travel to Salfords because they see it as passing through Earlswood twice.

Thats all theory mind you, I can't actually say why it is shown as valid when I don't believe it should be.

Hmm the platforms on the Quarry line at Earlswood were removed during the Brighton line resignalling in the 1970s so theres not really any reason to go that way!

 

[b0b]

Hmm the platforms on the Quarry line at Earlswood were removed during the Brighton line resignalling in the 1970s so theres not really any reason to go that way!

Even if platforms are removed, it still counts as a station for the purposes of the double-back rule. Newton (Lanarks) is my best example of that one, there have been no platforms on the WCML since 1962 (source: wikipedia), but it is shown on virtually on every relevant map of the routing guide, as being a station between Glasgow Group and Motherwell Group, and in itself is a routing point.

 

[John @ home]

Treatment of stations like this for routeing purposes is inconsistent. I really must get round to compiling a list.

 

[yorkie]

The journey would require 'doubling back', as the Redhill to Clapham Junction train would travel back through Merstham (but not stopping at Merstham).

Just because your journey requires doubling back does not necessarily make it invalid on a season.

OK, I admit a mapped route (I am not talking about the shortest routes here, or trains that are direct that double back) is only permitted if it is possible to do it without doubling back, but if it is possible to do the parts that you double-back on without doubling back then it's valid on a season.

For example, someone with a "point to point" ticket from Sheffield to Chester couldn't legitimately double back between Manchester & Stockport. Once they got to Manchester they'd have to go via Warrington. But on a season this doesn't matter, as you are allowed unlimited journeys in any direction anywhere on permitted routes between origin & destination.

 

[b0b]

Treatment of stations like this for routeing purposes is inconsistent. I really must get round to compiling a list.

How does mapped routes work when the destination is a zonal system like the OP's London Zones 2-6?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hmm the platforms on the Quarry line at Earlswood were removed during the Brighton line resignalling in the 1970s so theres not really any reason to go that way!

You know that, I know that, everyone who reads this thread will now know that, but does the planner know that? It allows the Merstham-R2-6 ticket via Earlswood aswell as Redhill, but not to Salfords, The first station you can actually get a train down the Quarry Lines from is Gatwick I think.

Even if platforms are removed, it still counts as a station for the purposes of the double-back rule. Newton (Lanarks) is my best example of that one, there have been no platforms on the WCML since 1962 (source: wikipedia), but it is shown on virtually on every relevant map of the routing guide, as being a station between Glasgow Group and Motherwell Group, and in itself is a routing point.

That is open to debate. There are a few stations which have lines very close to them, but no platforms for them, some seem to count and others not.

Just because your journey requires doubling back does not necessarily make it invalid on a season.

OK, I admit a mapped route (I am not talking about the shortest routes here, or trains that are direct that double back) is only permitted if it is possible to do it without doubling back, but if it is possible to do the parts that you double-back on without doubling back then it's valid on a season.

For example, someone with a "point to point" ticket from Sheffield to Chester couldn't legitimately double back between Manchester & Stockport. Once they got to Manchester they'd have to go via Warrington. But on a season this doesn't matter, as you are allowed unlimited journeys in any direction anywhere on permitted routes between origin & destination.

The issue here Yorkie is that as far as we can see the ticket from Merstham, should not be valid via Redhill or Earlswood. Neither is along the route from Merstham to Clapham Junction, and going via them would involve travelling back through Merstham. It'd be like having your Sheffield to Chester ticket and going to Darnall first.

How does mapped routes work when the destination is a zonal system like the OP's London Zones 2-6?

Redhill, Merstham and Earlswood are outside the zonal area. In the cases of zonal tickets originating from outside the zonal area, the permitted routes are those to a boundary station (or the first stop within the zonal area) and then on any train/route within that zonal area to the users chosen station.

The problem here is that this is not restricted to zonal tickets, as Merstham to Clapham Junction sgl/rtn tickets are also shown as valid via Redhill and so are tickets to Luton!

 

[paul1609]

You know that, I know that, everyone who reads this thread will now know that, but does the planner know that? It allows the Merstham-R2-6 ticket via Earlswood aswell as Redhill, but not to Salfords, The first station you can actually get a train down the Quarry Lines from is Gatwick I think.

What I mean is that Earlswood is only served by 1 train per hour off peak to London as they also call at Merstham there doesnt seem much point in going there.

In theory a train can call at Salford and go via the Quarry line but I dont think any are normally scheduled to do so.

Horley has platforms on the fast line and several peak Quarry line services call there usually instead of Gatwick Airport.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Oh, I seemed to recall that junction was nearer to Gatwick, I know the one north of Earlswood is fast (Quarry) to Slow (Redhill) only in the Up direction. I didn't think the fast platforms at Horley were used either, guess you learn something new everyday!