Mandatory reservations, recommended reservations, meaningless reservations

[Bletchleyite]

And ultimately booking ahead just means you're further up in the 'queue'. Requiring everyone to book ahead in no way increases the total number of seats available.

Well, it can help you in planning. Before the nonsensical* PSVAR requirements NatEx used it very well to arrange duplicate coaches when things started to get full. So a TOC with 5-car units, say (as EMR will be), could feasibly base everything off 5-car, then start diagramming the "spare" sets to double up to best fulfil demand when things start to fill up.

* No, PSVAR isn't nonsensical, but applying it to duplicates if the service car is accessible is.

 

[mirodo]

VTEC/LNER stopped using printed reservation cards when the digital displays became available. Since at the present time LNER don't want people to change from their assigned seat once they've boarded, the displays are switched off so as to make it harder to know if a seat is or isn't free.

The displays were on and active when I traveled on the 10:00 from Edinburgh to Kings Cross on the 11th.


Image shows interior of the train, with status lights and reservation details both showing.

 

[Watershed]

Well, it can help you in planning. Before the nonsensical* PSVAR requirements NatEx used it very well to arrange duplicate coaches when things started to get full. So a TOC with 5-car units, say (as EMR will be), could feasibly base everything off 5-car, then start diagramming the "spare" sets to double up to best fulfil demand when things start to fill up.

* No, PSVAR isn't nonsensical, but applying it to duplicates if the service car is accessible is.

I'd be interested to know how you would suggest LNER can lengthen a 9 or 10 car Azuma, or how Avanti can strengthen a 9 or 11 car Pendolino.

All of which have, in recent times, even with reduced demand, been fully booked.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd be interested to know how you would suggest LNER can lengthen a 9 or 10 car Azuma, or how Avanti can strengthen a 9 or 11 car Pendolino.

LNER have a lot of 5-car units which they can shift about the place. You could also plan the timetable with a base service and some paths for additional services and only run a given set of those based on building demand.

All of which have, in recent times, even with reduced demand, been fully booked.

Reduced demand and reduced capacity to be fair.

 

[Horizon22]

Travelled on 08:48 GWR from Great Malvern last Saturday 19th with an advance anytime return to Reading . When I enquired , no seat bookings required or available on this Paddington service or the return at 18:19 . All the seats had showing green / available on them apart from some reserved for staff. It was obvious that some people boarding had reservations as they were clutching tickets/ phones and looking for seat numbers and I heard some comments that their booked seat was already in use . I had purchased my tickets from Hereford Station partially using travel Vouchers about 10 days before travel and was advised then that no booking required and that was confirmed by GWR . Asked staff on the train why there was no reservations and was told he didn't know but it had been the same for a couple of weeks . Does anyone know if GWR is abandoning reservations or is it a computer glitch or similar ?

Probably a mis-formed service and therefore seat reservations are removed. Although I have noticed the same on several Worcester services, but fine on others.

 

[Mag_seven]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

Loads of people - I certainly used to travel loads of times from Glasgow to Euston and back without a reservation a few years ago.

 

[trebor79]

Again forgetting that those willing to stand harm the product for those sat down.
Its called standard class, it isn’t actually called cattle class. A rammed train is unacceptable outside metro commuting and marginal then.

Eh? Many times I've been sat in a seat on a train that is full and standing. In no way did it "harm the product" for me.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Eh? Many times I've been sat in a seat on a train that is full and standing. In no way did it "harm the product" for me.

I guess you must have a strong bladder and not want to go to the buffet car (or for the trolley to reach you) for a cup of tea? Nor to the luggage rack to get something from your case?

Travelling on a full and standing train is grim, even in a seat.

 

[Watershed]

LNER have a lot of 5-car units which they can shift about the place. You could also plan the timetable with a base service and some paths for additional services and only run a given set of those based on building demand.

But again - how are you going to lengthen a 9/10 car Azuma? A 14/15 coach train won't fit... anywhere really. Certainly not at the Cross.

The ECML isn't so awash with capacity that they can just leave unused paths about the place. 2tph to Edinburgh (plus ECTL) is the most the service will be for the foreseeable future.

Reduced demand and reduced capacity to be fair.

About 65% demand on the busiest weekend according to one figure I saw. If that's how it is now, what's it going to be like once all restrictions are lifted? Surely you can see where I'm going here...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Travelling on a full and standing train is grim, even in a seat.

Agreed. Especially an aisle seat!

 

[181]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

I occasionally do so from the Thames Valley (including via London), and I often come back without one, when I don't know what time I'll be able to set out or whether the bus will make the tight connection to my first train or not.

The potential for having to stand (or have a bum nearby) is unpleasant, but the prospect of being stranded is unacceptable.

This is worth emphasising -- the two problems are not of the same seriousness. People board crowded trains because the alternative is worse. And the crowding may often only be for a fairly small proportion of the journey.

I guess you must have a strong bladder and not want to go to the buffet car (or for the trolley to reach you) for a cup of tea? Nor to the luggage rack to get something from your case?

Travelling on a full and standing train is grim, even in a seat.

There's a significant difference between having a moderate number of people standing in vestibules and the much rarer (in my experience) situation of the train being completely jam-packed.

 

[trebor79]

I guess you must have a strong bladder and not want to go to the buffet car (or for the trolley to reach you) for a cup of tea? Nor to the luggage rack to get something from your case?

Travelling on a full and standing train is grim, even in a seat.

There's a significant difference between having a moderate number of people standing in vestibules and the much rarer (in my experience) situation of the train being completely jam-packed.

Well indeed, and I've never known a long distance service be full and standing for anything like the whole journey. It's usually just for a couple of stops.
Either you ask people to move so you can go to the toilet, or you hold on for 20 minutes knowing that the crush is going to disappear at the next stop.

I accept that sometimes the train will be busy and maybe it's going to be difficult to get a cup of tea for part of the journey. That's the flip side of the convenience of a flexible ticket. I want/need that flexibility and the option to stand if there are no seats available rather than be told I can't travel because "the railway" has decided it's unacceptable for me to stand.
So yeah, sometimes the train is a bit busy. I don't see it as that big of a deal.

 

[nlogax]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

Me. Judicious use of RTT to avoid the Euston scrum when having bought a standard class off peak return means proper flexibility in terms of seats.

 

[james60059]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

What about those on an All Line Rover?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

When I did my 3-in-7 East Midlands Rover 2 weeks ago, I used both LNER and XC, did a 10 minute reservation for my XC journeys and got told no seats available, but yet you'd be lucky to get a dozen passengers in the coach, in fact I had a table seat every time.

I did one LNER reservation from Newark North Gate to Peterborough, again got told no seats available. A 5-car Azuma rocks up and again, I have a bay of 4 to myself with about a dozen people in my coach.

 

[Meerkat]

but the prospect of being stranded is unacceptable.

Getting stranded being unacceptable is an argument for CR, as CR means you know you will have a seat without risk of getting left on the platform.
People are conflating arguments against CR with complaints about a lack of capacity. Allowing cattle class trains just hides the lack of capacity and enables inaction by the railway and government.

 

[APT618S]

Getting stranded being unacceptable is an argument for CR, as CR means you know you will have a seat without risk of getting left on the platform.
People are conflating arguments against CR with complaints about a lack of capacity. Allowing cattle class trains just hides the lack of capacity and enables inaction by the railway and government.

But if you were unable to board due to overcrowding the TOC would presumably have a duty of care to get you to your destination by bus/taxi etc or arrange hotel accomodation if for example it was the last train of the day.
With compulsory reservations they are much more likely to wash their hands of you.
I am certainly much more concerned about being stranded with CRs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But if you were unable to board due to overcrowding the TOC would presumably have a duty of care to get you to your destination by bus/taxi etc or arrange hotel accomodation if for example it was the last train of the day.
With compulsory reservations they are much more likely to wash their hands of you.
I am certainly much more concerned about being stranded with CRs.

As I said, the way you avoid being stranded during normal operations is to book a reservation for the latest train you are likely to want to use, and pull it earlier if there's space and you finish early. Same way you use flights on frequent routes.

Yes, OK, it means you can't really book a train 2 minutes after your bus arrives and get the next one if you miss it, but having people leaving ample time for their connection is a good thing - people legging it across stations sending people flying in all directions is not a positive safety benefit, and the Euston scrum (which it would completely get rid of, as everyone knows where they're sitting so there's no point) is horrid.

If your train is cancelled then the responsibility of the TOC to sort you out does not change (just like airlines have the legal responsibility to e.g. put you up in a hotel and pay meal expenses in such a case).

 

[dosxuk]

I wonder if a suitable alternative for compulsory reservations is to remove all discounted tickets from peak services, that way all passengers have flexible tickets for those trains and can choose to wait till later if they don't like a bum in their face because they've chosen a busy time to travel? Has a second advantage of raising income for the railway, meaning they might be able to afford more shoulder services for those whose comfort is more important than actually getting from A to B...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder if a suitable alternative for compulsory reservations is to remove all discounted tickets from peak services, that way all passengers have flexible tickets for those trains and can choose to wait till later if they don't like a bum in their face because they've chosen a busy time to travel? Has a second advantage of raising income for the railway, meaning they might be able to afford more shoulder services for those whose comfort is more important than actually getting from A to B...

Under the present system it does remain my view that Advance tickets should not be sold at all for any train that is expected to load past its seating capacity, but the TOC specific revenue grab is too tempting for them.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Under the present system it does remain my view that Advance tickets should not be sold at all for any train that is expected to load past its seating capacity, but the TOC specific revenue grab is too tempting for them.

The main issue there is that flexible tickets have been increased in price so much that often advances are the only reasonably priced way to make that journey (and I may be wrong, but I am pretty sure I've read some claims of ToC's and government using the fact cheap advances are available as a justification for increasing the flexible fares). So I'd be incredibly hesitant to basically push through a stealth fare rise just because some people have to stand.

 

[trebor79]

As I said, the way you avoid being stranded during normal operations is to book a reservation for the latest train you are likely to want to use, and pull it earlier if there's space and you finish early. Same way you use flights on frequent routes.

Yes, OK, it means you can't really book a train 2 minutes after your bus arrives and get the next one if you miss it, but having people leaving ample time for their connection is a good thing

No it isn't. It'll just push people like me who need flexibility to the car.
And there are loads of practical problems with what you describe. If I book the latest train I might want to use, then cancel it and book an earlier one (if I can), that means there's an unused seat in the later train that is unlikely to get filled. And previously someone may not have been able to book the train they wanted because I had that seat, so they think 2sod it" and take the car.
Your ideas imply that there will always be excess capacity. That's not an efficient use of resources.

I just don't get why people should be forced to reserve a seat. If I've got no problem with standing in the vestibule if there truly are no seats left, why shouldn't I stand in the vestibule?

 

[DB]

Under the present system it does remain my view that Advance tickets should not be sold at all for any train that is expected to load past its seating capacity, but the TOC specific revenue grab is too tempting for them.

Yes, Transpennine were notorious for this at one time - always selling reduced-price advance tickets on trains which everyone who used them knew would already be crush-loaded with commuters on season and walk-up tickets.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

I just don't get why people should be forced to reserve a seat. If I've got no problem with standing in the vestibule if there truly are no seats left, why shouldn't I stand in the vestibule?

Agreed, and it's particularly an issue with short journeys where LNER are the only / main operator. For example, between York and Doncaster. That's a trip I go through phases of making fairly often, but I simply will not be using the train if I have to book - it' often only on the day that I know that I will be going there, and I rarely know when I will be comng back. I've done it on a Friday especially crammed in the vestibule of a Mk4 or HST - it's only 25 minutes, so not a problem. What do those who think this is a good idea expect people in this situation to do? Get to Doncaster station at 4.30 and find that there is no availability on any trains until 9 or 10 in the evening? Not realistic, is it!

 

[trebor79]

Agreed, and it's particularly an issue with short journeys where LNER are the only / main operator. For example, between York and Doncaster. That's a trip I go through phases of making fairly often, but I simply will not be using the train if I have to book - it' often only on the day that I know that I will be going there, and I rarely know when I will be comng back. I've done it on a Friday especially crammed in the vestibule of a Mk4 or HST - it's only 25 minutes, so not a problem. What do those who think this is a good idea expect people in this situation to do? Get to Doncaster station at 4.30 and find that there is no availability on any trains until 9 or 10 in the evening? Not realistic, is it!

Indeed, it's facile and hardly makes the train the more convenient option. Some enthusiasts seem to like the idea because they think it will result in some intangible quality of journey benefit. All it will lead to is frustrated passengers, broken journeys, and as I've alluded to, wasted capacity.
It's an absolute nonsense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, it's facile and hardly makes the train the more convenient option. Some enthusiasts seem to like the idea because they think it will result in some intangible quality of journey benefit. All it will lead to is frustrated passengers, broken journeys, and as I've alluded to, wasted capacity.
It's an absolute nonsense.

It's not an enthusiast thing. Quite the opposite - shouts of "why do they sell more tickets than seats?" are very common in very mainstream channels.

 

[WelshBluebird]

It's not an enthusiast thing. Quite the opposite - shouts of "why do they sell more tickets than seats?" are very common in very mainstream channels.

And yet the exact same people would be complaining if the reverse was done and they were prevented from boarding services because they didn't have a reservation. You can't win with people some times!

 

[Mag_seven]

I would argue that more custom would be lost from people not choosing to travel by train as a result of compulsory reservation rather than being forced to stand.

The system we have at the moment (reservation possible but not compulsory with the risk that you may not get a seat if you don't reserve) has worked for years so why change it?

 

[Meerkat]

And yet the exact same people would be complaining if the reverse was done and they were prevented from boarding services because they didn't have a reservation. You can't win with people some times!

If they are moaning about selling too many tickets they are clearly understanding the concept of reservations and capacity limits.
I would interested to see how many passengers don’t book when going on Intercity (as intercity rather than using it for a short hop). I don’t reckon it’s many, due to all the advance discounts and the increase in online sales.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Jun 2021 ==

I would argue that more custom would be lost from people not choosing to travel by train as a result of compulsory reservation rather than being forced to stand.

The system we have at the moment (reservation possible but not compulsory with the risk that you may not get a seat if you don't reserve) has worked for years so why change it?

By ‘has worked’ you mean it has allowed grossly overcrowded trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would argue that more custom would be lost from people not choosing to travel by train as a result of compulsory reservation rather than being forced to stand.

The system we have at the moment (reservation possible but not compulsory with the risk that you may not get a seat if you don't reserve) has worked for years so why change it?

Because it doesn't work particularly well. People occupy reserved seats without a reservation and often won't move if asked and the whole experience of using a crowded train is poor.

It was probably the only sensible way when making or changing a reservation involved the faff of going to a booking office. These days the booking office is in your pocket.

The one thing that seems to be a big issue (when operating at full capacity, which e.g. LNER isn't at the moment) is where IC type trains provide the main local service. To be honest, I'd be looking at recasting so this is no longer the case, by slightly reducing IC frequencies and adding local trains.

 

[DB]

By ‘has worked’ you mean it has allowed grossly overcrowded trains.

A minority of trains are grossly overcrowded. So you think it's better to actively push away passengers and encourage them to use cars?

 

[Meerkat]

A minority of trains are grossly overcrowded. So you think it's better to actively push away passengers and encourage them to use cars?

Well in that case there will be no one getting left on the platform.
no one has given a convincing case for significant numbers being pushed into cars by CR that is likely to be greater than the number who would be attracted by the greater certainty of avoiding a crap trip.