Mandatory reservations, recommended reservations, meaningless reservations

[Meerkat]

A few posts in the last couple of hours have mentioned "a nice journey" and "bums in faces".

Irrespective of compulsory reservations, "a nice journey" or lack of "bums in faces" aren't what is paid for when a ticket is purchased, are they? I thought what was purchased is a contract to be conveyed from A to B...

That’s like a restaurant saying you only paid to eat the food, not for a table or the roof.

 

[Dave91131]

That’s like a restaurant saying you only paid to eat the food, not for a table or the roof.

I take your point, but it's not the point.

The point is what purchasing a ticket entitles or does not entitle the passenger to.

NB: in recent weeks and months, a roof hasn't always been provided by restaurants!

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s like a restaurant saying you only paid to eat the food, not for a table or the roof.

Here's an interesting question.

Completely away from trains, would those people who vehemently oppose CR find it an acceptable experience at a restaurant* if they crammed a load of standees in alongside you? Crikey, people generally don't even think sharing a table with strangers in a restaurant is OK, even a fast food place. And if not why is it different?

* Not a "vertical drinking" type pub, which is something that gains its atmosphere specifically because it's crowded, and people go there wanting that atmosphere. Though I think some will wonder if "table only" is a better way for some pubs to be, and some may well stay that way, as almost all European mainland ones are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2021 ==

The point is what purchasing a ticket entitles or does not entitle the passenger to.

Though the CR vs. not CR debate also touches on what it should entitle the passenger to as well. That is, a pleasant travelling environment*, not just a cattle wagon.

* Not a seat debate; I reckon there is likely nobody who considers travelling in a crush loaded train preferable.

 

[Dave91131]

Here's an interesting question.

Completely away from trains, would those people who vehemently oppose CR find it an acceptable experience at a restaurant* if they crammed a load of standees in alongside you? Crikey, people generally don't even think sharing a table with strangers in a restaurant is OK, even a fast food place. And if not why is it different?

* Not a "vertical drinking" type pub, which is something that gains its atmosphere specifically because it's crowded, and people go there wanting that atmosphere. Though I think some will wonder if "table only" is a better way for some pubs to be, and some may well stay that way, as almost all European mainland ones are.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Jun 2021 ==



Though the CR vs. not CR debate also touches on what it should entitle the passenger to as well. That is, a pleasant travelling environment*, not just a cattle wagon.

* Not a seat debate; I reckon there is likely nobody who considers travelling in a crush loaded train preferable.

The should is always going to generate differing views.

I'm of the opinion that the railways are there for everyone to use, and you can never please everyone.

There are 2 angles from which I think the compulsory reservation issue can be viewed:

1) all passengers have to accept that some trains will be very busy with many standees, and hence some may not find the travelling environment as pleasant as they would like or feel they are entitled to. Those of that opinion can basically like it or lump it (my opinion).

2) the railway accepts that some passengers want and are entitled to "a nice journey" (to use a recently quoted phrase), and allocates X number of carriages on selected services for use by such passengers with compulsory reservations and no standing allowed. If this were to be done, my view (which is a separate debate) is that passengers choosing said carriages should be charged a not insignificant supplement in addition to their ticket price for these extra niceties and this would also cover the revenue lost to potential standees who as a result are unable to board.

In terms of the restaurant comparison, it's much easier to simply walk out of a restaurant and go home / elsewhere if you arrive and are told the only seating available is sharing with other diners. It's far more difficult to simply walk away if you're trying to get home from, say, London to Yorkshire or Newcastle.

Table sharing in McDonald's, as a fast food example, between sets of strangers never seems to be an issue from what I've witnessed.

 

[bramling]

If the railway doesn't consider quality of journey experience at all, it might as well give up, as it's likely the car will win out in those terms. For an InterCity journey, it has to be part of the offering. I'd agree that commuter type services are not so much about that.

I get that many enthusiasts are happy to make multi-hour journeys standing in a crammed-full train. Most non-enthusiasts are not.

I’m not sure this captures the mood at all. Personally I would absolutely not wish to make a multi-hour journey standing, and would do everything possible to avoid that (the obvious way to do that being careful choice of timings). However I’d still value the ability to travel if I really needed to, the idea of “sorry - sold out” is completely unacceptable to me.

Enthusiast or otherwise, for me provisional of additional capacity is the biggest issue.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’m not sure this captures the mood at all. Personally I would absolutely not wish to make a multi-hour journey standing, and would do everything possible to avoid that (the obvious way to do that being careful choice of timings). However I’d still value the ability to travel if I really needed to, the idea of “sorry - sold out” is completely unacceptable to me.

To be fair that choice of timings could be more readily made if loadings were published on the planners (as SBB has for years) and you had the option to select "avoid trains where I am likely not to get a seat". I certainly always avoid timetabled 4-car formations on LNR.

 

[mmh]

I’m not sure this captures the mood at all. Personally I would absolutely not wish to make a multi-hour journey standing, and would do everything possible to avoid that (the obvious way to do that being careful choice of timings). However I’d still value the ability to travel if I really needed to, the idea of “sorry - sold out” is completely unacceptable to me.

Enthusiast or otherwise, for me provisional of additional capacity is the biggest issue.

I thought, and there are other threads on the subject, we were supposed to be looking at how to encourage leisure rail travel to boost tourism and the economy. Compulsory reservations are a complete antithesis to that, a vital part of leisure travel is flexibility; the ability to change plans and simply take a later train than you thought you might.

 

[trebor79]

I was agreeing with you. In essence, I was saying that compulsory reservations are more likely to be better for "normal" users, who these days are mostly using Advances anyway (provided there is decent disruption handling), and enthusiasts prefer full flexibility.

I was speaking as a normal user. I often don't know what time my meetings will finish, and therefore have flexible tickets.
I can't be bothered working out what train I might need to book (often the traffic into eg Peterborough can be awful anyway), and for me it's easier to just turn up and take the next train.
That's the flexibility I've paid for and will use.

Are these compulsory reservation requirements present in the NCoT?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was speaking as a normal user. I often don't know what time my meetings will finish, and therefore have flexible tickets.
I can't be bothered working out what train I might need to book (often the traffic into eg Peterborough can be awful anyway), and for me it's easier to just turn up and take the next train.
That's the flexibility I've paid for and will use.

Are these compulsory reservation requirements present in the NCoT?

It is and has been possible to apply a compulsory reservation flag to any train in the timetable for absolutely years, though it's not very commonly used up to now. It's certainly in the Byelaws.

 

[DustyBin]

I’m not sure this captures the mood at all. Personally I would absolutely not wish to make a multi-hour journey standing, and would do everything possible to avoid that (the obvious way to do that being careful choice of timings). However I’d still value the ability to travel if I really needed to, the idea of “sorry - sold out” is completely unacceptable to me.

Enthusiast or otherwise, for me provisional of additional capacity is the biggest issue.

I think we’re on the same page here. I want a forward facing window seat preferably at a table to myself which is why I often travel first class. I certainly do not want to feel crowded. However, if making a short journey maybe following a call from a friend to see if I’d like to go for a drink, I want to turn up and go. Under such circumstances I’m far less fussy!

 

[1955LR]

Travelled on 08:48 GWR from Great Malvern last Saturday 19th with an advance anytime return to Reading . When I enquired , no seat bookings required or available on this Paddington service or the return at 18:19 . All the seats had showing green / available on them apart from some reserved for staff. It was obvious that some people boarding had reservations as they were clutching tickets/ phones and looking for seat numbers and I heard some comments that their booked seat was already in use . I had purchased my tickets from Hereford Station partially using travel Vouchers about 10 days before travel and was advised then that no booking required and that was confirmed by GWR . Asked staff on the train why there was no reservations and was told he didn't know but it had been the same for a couple of weeks . Does anyone know if GWR is abandoning reservations or is it a computer glitch or similar ?

 

[Meerkat]

the idea of “sorry - sold out” is completely unacceptable to me.

That is the situation now, however without CR you might have bought a ticket and waited on the platform before you find out the train is sold out and you can’t get on.

I thought, and there are other threads on the subject, we were supposed to be looking at how to encourage leisure rail travel to boost tourism and the economy. Compulsory reservations are a complete antithesis to that, a vital part of leisure travel is flexibility; the ability to change plans and simply take a later train than you thought you might.

If we want to attract customers the knowledge that they will definitely get a seat and won’t have someone‘s bum in their face can only be a plus.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is the situation now, however without CR you might have bought a ticket and waited on the platform before you find out the train is sold out and you can’t get on.

Though the threshold for "sold out" in that case is much higher - full and standing - than just "all seats taken".

If we want to attract customers the knowledge that they will definitely get a seat and won’t have someone‘s bum in their face can only be a plus.

That is certainly true.

 

[Dave91131]

If we want to attract customers the knowledge that they will definitely get a seat and won’t have someone‘s bum in their face can only be a plus.

But how many customers will the railway dissuade from travelling if they can't travel when they want to as a result?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how many customers will the railway dissuade from travelling if they can't travel when they want to as a result?

Probably relatively few, because in normal times there will usually be alternative trains they can use.

 

[Meerkat]

But how many customers will the railway dissuade from travelling if they can't travel when they want to as a result?

Who says they can’t? As long as there is rebooking available they can change their reservation.
if you are saying there won’t be space on a regular basis then more capacity is needed.
I would imagine if there was a serious issue - commuters not getting to work regularly then they would make standing reservations available.
A genuine issue would be commuters block booking a seat on the same XC short hop blocking long distance travellers getting on. There are possible workarounds but the answer is to stop bodging and provide a proper commuter service!

 

[Dave91131]

Probably relatively few, because in normal times there will usually be alternative trains they can use.

I agree that there will sometimes be alternatives that they can use, whether or not they are prepared to use those alternatives or feel that they should have to is another matter.

I forget if it was this thread or not - some time ago another poster mentioned "spreading the demand across all available services" or similar, when discussing compulsory reservations.

I don't see that that's possible; the demand is when people want to travel, they can't be made to want to travel earlier or later or even on a different day as the chances are it won't be convenient for them.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see that that's possible; the demand is when people want to travel, they can't be made to want to travel earlier or later or even on a different day as the chances are it won't be convenient for them.

With, for example, three trains per hour from Euston to Manchester, there are going to be very few people who could not travel 20 or even 40 minutes earlier or later. Those who absolutely must* travel at a very specific time can book well in advance to ensure their place.

* Which is itself ill-advised as the train could be cancelled. Always better to put in some slack and have a coffee if you get there on time.

 

[trebor79]

But how many customers will the railway dissuade from travelling if they can't travel when they want to as a result?

Probably relatively few, because in normal times there will usually be alternative trains they can use.

But that doesn't work if it means I miss my connection at Peterborough, for example. So I end up waiting ages longer there, and then end up pacing rhe platform at Ely for the hourly Breckland line service, assuming I haven't missed the last one by then.

With, for example, three trains per hour from Euston to Manchester, there are going to be very few people who could not travel 20 or even 40 minutes earlier or later. Those who absolutely must* travel at a very specific time can book well in advance to ensure their place.

* Which is itself ill-advised as the train could be cancelled. Always better to put in some slack and have a coffee if you get there on time.

And as I've already pointed out, that's impossible for those us who buy flexible tickets for the flexibility. If I'm able to book a specific train days in advance I'll get a cheap advance fare.

Compulsory reservations are stupid.

 

[Kite159]

I was on a 800 from Bristol last Friday (5pm departure) which had working reservations. Quite a few seats reserved solely for the short journey between Bristol & Bath, and unsurprisingly after Bristol at least half in the coach I was in went unclaimed.

4tph between Bristol & Bath so a "turn up and go" frequency, having compulsory reservations are stupid as some will simply board the first available service to Bath when they arrive, be it the intercity service or be it a Westbury bound 2 coach Turbo.

 

[dosxuk]

The railway offers a product for those passengers who value the quality of their journey over the convenience of turn-up-and-go. It's called first class and is available on most intercity routes (can an route really be classed as intercity if it doesn't offer first class? Question for another thread).

The proponents of compulsory reservations always seem to forget to mention they want the uncrowded trains with nice atmospheres to also be at convenient (read peak) times and available on the cheapest possible tickets. The idea that people may pay for flexibility and be willing to stand for any amount of time if it means they'll get to their planned destination is a completely foreign concept.

 

[Meerkat]

The railway offers a product for those passengers who value the quality of their journey over the convenience of turn-up-and-go. It's called first class and is available on most intercity routes (can an route really be classed as intercity if it doesn't offer first class? Question for another thread).

The proponents of compulsory reservations always seem to forget to mention they want the uncrowded trains with nice atmospheres to also be at convenient (read peak) times and available on the cheapest possible tickets. The idea that people may pay for flexibility and be willing to stand for any amount of time if it means they'll get to their planned destination is a completely foreign concept.

Again forgetting that those willing to stand harm the product for those sat down.
Its called standard class, it isn’t actually called cattle class. A rammed train is unacceptable outside metro commuting and marginal then.

 

[Watershed]

With, for example, three trains per hour from Euston to Manchester, there are going to be very few people who could not travel 20 or even 40 minutes earlier or later. Those who absolutely must* travel at a very specific time can book well in advance to ensure their place.

* Which is itself ill-advised as the train could be cancelled. Always better to put in some slack and have a coffee if you get there on time.

That's fine up until you reach Euston at 6 or 7pm and find the next train with available seats is at 10pm.

Or, more drastically, you turn up to Kings Cross on a sunny Saturday and find the next train to Scotland with available seats is on Monday.

 

[Meerkat]

That's fine up until you reach Euston at 6 or 7pm and find the next train with available seats is at 10pm.

Or, more drastically, you turn up to Kings Cross on a sunny Saturday and find the next train to Scotland with available seats is on Monday.

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

 

[bramling]

Probably relatively few, because in normal times there will usually be alternative trains they can use.

It wouldn’t take many instances of “sorry you can’t travel on this train because someone else doesn’t want a bum near them, you’ll have to hang around for a few hours” before it will be back to using the car.

 

[Meerkat]

It wouldn’t take many instances of “sorry you can’t travel on this train because someone else doesn’t want a bum near them, you’ll have to hang around for a few hours” before it will be back to using the car.

if they don’t learn to book after the first time.….

 

[bramling]

if they don’t learn to book after the first time.….

But for the umpteenth time not everyone wants to book, or is able to book. The potential for having to stand (or have a bum nearby) is unpleasant, but the prospect of being stranded is unacceptable.

 

[Watershed]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

I think you're completely missing the point. That could just as well be someone from stations between Peterborough and York/Leeds on a day trip. They may well have an Advance ticket for their outward journey and a flexible ticket for their return.

And ultimately booking ahead just means you're further up in the 'queue'. Requiring everyone to book ahead in no way increases the total number of seats available.

So whether it's on the day or a week before, the situation is fundamentally the same.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's fine up until you reach Euston at 6 or 7pm and find the next train with available seats is at 10pm.

The way you use such a system is to book your last likely return train so you know you won't be stranded, and pull it earlier if you need to and there's space. Same for the Peterborough-York daytrippers.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Who gets a train to Scotland without booking?!

Often have pre-COVID-19, Preston -> Carlisle / Glasgow Central / Haymarket / Edinburgh.

Just hop on the first train heading Northbound on the WCML. Generally more folk alighting rather than boarding, at calls North of Preston.

Different matter if boarding at London, however, when I personally would always endeavour to have a reservation ahead of travelling.