Class 465 and 466 set for storage/scrap: possible uses for them in future?

[Journeyman]

Are Southern even remotely bothered about replacing the 313s? I know they're getting on a bit, but they seem to be well enough looked after, and I'm not aware of any reliability issues.

 

[Doomotron]

Are Southern even remotely bothered about replacing the 313s? I know they're getting on a bit, but they seem to be well enough looked after, and I'm not aware of any reliability issues.

They keep them (and presumably the 455s as well) because they are incredibly cheap to lease - possibly the cheapest in the country.

 

[bramling]

It's possible, but at the same time so much house building has taken place within SE London and other parts of Kent I recent years that this could offset any reductions in travel caused by more WFH practices.

Yes I suspect in the medium term many inner-suburban routes will bounce back. It's the "home counties" commuters which will likely be slower to return.

 

[Journeyman]

They keep them (and presumably the 455s as well) because they are incredibly cheap to lease - possibly the cheapest in the country.

Well, I guess no-one else particularly wants them!

 

[Doomotron]

Well, I guess no-one else particularly wants them!

Nope, but I suspect that's because of their age and not their quality - the 313s in particular are still quite reliable units, even if they do have quite spartan interiors.

 

[cnjb8]

Can’t help but wonder wether this is a nationwide thing against smaller trains. Operators seem to now order trains at 12-cars rather than 3 4-cars for example. And if you look at GWR and EMR withdrawing their 153s, maybe the 466s fit into their pattern. Makes more sense to have a longer 707 then a 465 coupled with a 466.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Can’t help but wonder wether this is a nationwide thing against smaller trains. Operators seem to now order trains at 12-cars rather than 3 4-cars for example. And if you look at GWR and EMR withdrawing their 153s, maybe the 466s fit into their pattern. Makes more sense to have a longer 707 then a 465 coupled with a 466.

With rising passenger numbers (up until last year) there was certainly an element of there being less of a need for lower-capacity units... but a big part of it is the requirement for universally accessible toilets: as these toilets take up more space, they eat into the space for passengers to occupy. The shorter the train, the greater percentage of useable space lost.
There's arguably still a niche usage case for a 2-car EMU such as a 456 or 466, eg Bromley, Sheerness, and Guildford to Ascot off-peak... but with 3rd rail you're also increasing the risk of gapping, and with electric units there isn't the same cost penalty to adding a third vehicle that there is with diesel units.

As for Networkers to Southern, that's one of those things that makes more sense in theory than in practice. Had BR continued, a further build of Networkers might have gone ahead to get rid of the last VEPs and may even have found themselves on the Coastway, but the reality is that there isn't a huge benefit in replacing 40 year old trains with 30 year old ones. Newer isn't always better, such as when the aged but adequate heritage DMUs were replaced by Pacers... or when those same Pacers were replaced by older but more pleasant 308s.

 

[D365]

What's the going rate for approved-supplier decoupling capacitors?

The capacitors aren’t the costly bit, it’s the safety/risk assessment exercises that rack up the bills!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2021 ==

Can’t help but wonder wether this is a nationwide thing against smaller trains. Operators seem to now order trains at 12-cars rather than 3 4-cars for example. And if you look at GWR and EMR withdrawing their 153s, maybe the 466s fit into their pattern. Makes more sense to have a longer 707 then a 465 coupled with a 466.

Greater Anglia have modified their Class 720 order to remove the ten-car units in the wake of COVID.

 

[hwl]

The capacitors aren’t the costly bit, it’s the safety/risk assessment exercises that rack up the bills!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Jun 2021 ==


Greater Anglia have modified their Class 720 order to remove the ten-car units in the wake of COVID.

It was more to do with being too long for the depot facilities at Ilford post-cancellation of Brantham depot.

 

[43102EMR]

It was more to do with being too long for the depot facilities at Ilford post-cancellation of Brantham depot.

A topic for a different thread, but it was principally down to increasing fleet flexibility due to the demand slump resulting from the pandemic.

 

[Journeyman]

Nope, but I suspect that's because of their age and not their quality - the 313s in particular are still quite reliable units, even if they do have quite spartan interiors.

That's what I figured. They seem to plod on dependably, and do the job, even if you can't see out the windows...

 

[aleggatta]

That's what I figured. They seem to plod on dependably, and do the job, even if you can't see out the windows...

At least you can be sure they will be cold in winter and hot in summer - even if the hot in summer might simply be down to them being on fire!

 

[Journeyman]

At least you can be sure they will be cold in winter and hot in summer - even if the hot in summer might simply be down to them being on fire!

Plus, of course, all PEP-derived stock has two heater settings - "off" and "nuclear".

 

[physics34]

Are Southern even remotely bothered about replacing the 313s? I know they're getting on a bit, but they seem to be well enough looked after, and I'm not aware of any reliability issues.

Their lease runs out in December as does the 455s. This of course is easily rectified. The 313s could be replaced by 377/5, with SE keeping the networkers with the 707s arriving too, but i dont think the numbers quite add up.

 

[Class 466]

Their lease runs out in December as does the 455s. This of course is easily rectified. The 313s could be replaced by 377/5, with SE keeping the networkers with the 707s arriving too, but i dont think the numbers quite add up.

377/5s are staying at Southeastern. 313s will be replaced by other means eventually.

 

[brad465]

Their lease runs out in December as does the 455s. This of course is easily rectified. The 313s could be replaced by 377/5, with SE keeping the networkers with the 707s arriving too, but i dont think the numbers quite add up.

In the short term I imagine the lease would be extended would it not? Unless it was already in motion the various rolling stock cascades you describe won't be completed fast enough.

 

[A0]

It's possible, but at the same time so much house building has taken place within SE London and other parts of Kent I recent years that this could offset any reductions in travel caused by more WFH practices.

Not even close. The reductions due to WFH are over 50% - there's been nowhere *near* enough housebuilding to offset that.

 

[ScotGG]

I think they mean in 2-5 years.

No one knows what will happen.

 

[physics34]

In the short term I imagine the lease would be extended would it not? Unless it was already in motion the various rolling stock cascades you describe won't be completed fast enough.

Someone said it all depends on Bombardier delivering the Greater Anglia stock..... which hints at cascades regarding 379s going to GN and 387s moving to SN from GN.... but just speculation and also going off topic.

 

[Class 466]

Why the length restriction?

The translator equipment refused to recognise the rear 466. So it does mean the previous dates & listed against them on here will change

 

[Aictos]

The translator equipment refused to recognise the rear 466. So it does mean the previous dates & listed against them on here will change

Oh I see, thanks for explaining the issue.

 

[Lukespenceruk1]

So what networkers and how many are being stored. ?

 

[brad465]

So what networkers and how many are being stored. ?

According to the below post, taken from the Beckenham Junction thread, the units below are planned (465236 and 465246 in that list have already moved to store):

No idea about reliability, but some of those going to store are BREL examples. As for the 707s... if that's the case, then they'll need quite a few more over quickly, but the 701s aren't in service yet to replace those at SWR. I suspect they're probably just going to run a tighter fleet for the short term.

According to the se-gen postings, the ones going to store at Worksop are apparently:

465 004
465 010
465 019

465 236
465 245
465 246

466 004
466 024
466 033

 

[Wolfie]

Not even close. The reductions due to WFH are over 50% - there's been nowhere *near* enough housebuilding to offset that.

You miss the very important word currently. I have been in the office three times in 15 months. Initial thoughts are that we will be expected to be in the office at least 50% of the time. We have also been told that there will be measures to spread office attendance through the week. That will mean the reductions will be much less than you postulate. Removing large quantities of stock now, before the longer term situation is clearer, would be foolhardy.

 

[Class 466]

According to the below post, taken from the Beckenham Junction thread, the units below are planned (465236 and 465246 in that list have already moved to store):

This lists is incomplete and is missing 465017, 466016 & 466043 at least. (I say at least because two of the three units at New Beckenham will also be heading there)

 

[Wolfie]

Someone said it all depends on Bombardier delivering the Greater Anglia stock..... which hints at cascades regarding 379s going to GN and 387s moving to SN from GN.... but just speculation and also going off topic.

I was trying to work out how this related to Networkers and Southeastern. The answer is only marginally (as in it may rule out the requirement for some stock moves from Southeastern which some have proposed without regard to the impact to Southeastern itself).

Not a dig at you, there are lots of off-topic posts, but yours was the one which confused me for a couple of minutes.

 

[3973EXL]

STP Mon 21/06 to Thur 24/06
Realtime Trains - FRGT 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

21/06

5Q26 37884 466004 466016 465245
Realtime Trains - 569K 1059 Gillingham E.M.U.D. to Worksop Up Receptions

0H73 37800
Realtime Trains - 059B 1145 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Wembley H.S.

 

[59CosG95]

Keeping tabs here on this thread:
465004 - still with SE
465010 - still with SE
465017 - still with SE
465019 - still with SE

465236 - stored at Worksop
465245 - stored at Worksop
465246 - stored at Worksop

466004 - stored at Worksop
466016 - stored at Worksop
466024 - still with SE
466033 - still with SE
466043 - still with SE

'The Beckenham 3' - to return to Slade Green tomorrow (22/6):
466006
465247
465913

 

[Wolvercoter]

Thanks for the updates all.

Didn't know 466016 was heading for storage - in my mind, it's the closest to a 'celebrity' 466 in that it was running on the last day Elmers End to Addiscombe on 31st May 1997.

 

[Tynwald]

Are 465/466 still fitted with those Ansaldo ICMU devices. They realy were very troublesome.