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Should the UK rail network have universal rolling stock inter-interoperability requirements?

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RobShipway

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Well yes, but I think the goal should be to restore the level of standardisation that was lost, and if possible proceed towards universal multiple working.
Even if takes a long time to get there, we have to start somewhere.

In many ways we have an advantage that we have things like Canbus now, which is a ready made safety-grade control standard with dozens of manufacturers making components, and which can be made to carry all sorts of data if required.
I don't disagree, but it is like laptops, PC's etc.... They all should have the same standard USB and HDMI connections. But my Nokia Android phone has a different USB connection for both connecting to a laptop or other device than say an Apple mobile phone. Both connections, are also used to be charging the device. But there should be the same type of USB connection across all mobile phone devices, so that it does not matter what the end connection on the USB cable is, it will connect to any device. Instead such a global fit any mobile phone USB connection cable will have about 5 different connections to it, because as devices have developed so have the USB connections being used.

The same principle with the USB connections, is what has gone on with the development of trains over the last 30 years or more. Developments have happened and changes have been made including in how train couplers have progressed.

How important is universal multiple working against other things that are non standard:
* universal knowledge for traincrew of all rolling stock
* universal route clearance
* universal route knowledge
* universal part supply

I guess that what you are ultimately arguing is that from this point rolling stock should be fully specified by the railway with the manufacturers simply competing to make it at the cheapest cost.
I believe that is what he is saying, although like the mobile phone world in not having the same type of USB connection to both charge and connect my phone to other devices, I cannot see a standard being made unless it is something that the DFT regulate to the Rosco's when they are putting out the requests for new train orders.

I suspect if you are ask any TOC, they will say that the list below is more important than the ability to couple say a class 150 to a class 197:

* universal knowledge for traincrew of all rolling stock
* universal route clearance
* universal route knowledge
* universal part supply
 
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tbtc

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We've got a couple of dozen posts into the thread and nobody's posted that XKCD cartoon that always comes up when this kind of thing is mentioned? (https://xkcd.com/927/ - a cartoon showing that if you try to replace fourteen standards with a "universal" one, all you achieve is creating fifteen standards)

I'm perfectly fine with some things not being identical all over the network. Some routes suit (say) 3x23m whilst other suit (say) 4x20m - trying to force every route to fit to a standard length of train would be a huge sum of money and take thirty plus years to achieve. If the Southern Region want to base things on 12x20m then good luck to them, trying to spend money on allowing 23m trains to swing through tunnels and around platforms seems a bit of a luxury problem. And even if we had one shape of carriage, things still wouldn't be "simple" on our messy railway (e.g. aren't 950s cleared on the Durham Coast but "identical" 150s cannot run there?) - we'd still find a way to complicate things!

Same goes with 810s being a different length of carriage to 800-802s - it's fine - they do different jobs in different areas, and it's better IMHO to accept the best length of carriages/ trains to suit the constraints of St Pancras

In theory, we should at least have the same types of coupling across the railway, so that anything can be hauled "dead" as a last resort. I like the fact that the same android cable can be used to charge a dozen different devices in my house - much better than twenty years ago when each phone manufacturer had their own plugs (which were different to other electronically equipment)

But I guess the problem there is that you stop innovations (if you force manufacturers to meet the same standards as were used on old stock) - I don't know how to balance this. Do other countries (with nationalised railways) have pretty uniform fleets?
 

HSTEd

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How important is universal multiple working against other things that are non standard:
* universal knowledge for traincrew of all rolling stock
Well given that traincrew knowledge only applies to the leading cab, at least in my somewhat limited understanding, this seems somewhat less important if all vehicles can work in multiple.

Then again I would also propose attempting to standardise the major cab component to reduce "class conversion" training requirements.

I guess that what you are ultimately arguing is that from this point rolling stock should be fully specified by the railway with the manufacturers simply competing to make it at the cheapest cost.

Not necessarily "fully specified". But certainly specified far more heavily than they are now.
 

D365

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Not necessarily "fully specified". But certainly specified far more heavily than they are now.
And you keep missing the point that this is going to substantially inflate the cost. Ergo, it’s not happening.
 

HSTEd

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And you keep missing the point that this is going to substantially inflate the cost. Ergo, it’s not happening.
Leaving aside that fundamentally it will not inflate the cost of trains more than equipment like ETCS or any other safety grade standard equipment trains are required to have.....

This is as opposed to the inflation of the cost caused by massive manufacturer lock in and operational problems caused by the inability of rolling stock to work together, for decades?



Penny wise, pound foolish.
 

Dr Hoo

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This is as opposed to the inflation of the cost caused by massive manufacturer lock in and operational problems caused by the inability of rolling stock to work together, for decades?
Given the remarkable mixture of manufacturers evident on many of the larger TOCs (or with various rolling stock leasing companies) I am surprised that you perceive "massive manufacturer lock in" in the UK.

Can you give some examples, please, preferably accompanied by evidence of resultant cost inflation (specifically because of lock in, not the wider issues of a mixed fleet, such as training)?
 

D365

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Leaving aside that fundamentally it will not inflate the cost of trains more than equipment like ETCS or any other safety grade standard equipment trains are required to have.....
Yes it will…
 

cle

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80x seems to be happening for the longest distance / fastest routes.

A 350-type for regional faster routes (110mph) in 5 car consists, bi-mode inc 3rd rail versions. Could be TPE, WCML 'Northampton Line', SWML, GAML, Corby and so on.

And then a small selection of local (2/3 doors) and regional (wide end doors) in 2 and 3 car combos, with 4 and 5 car versions for London. EMU and DMU variations, or bi-mode combos. All able to be joined and split, all with SDO. But yes, some standardization would be good.

Nothing specific for airports, it's marginal compared to regular travel.
 

RobShipway

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80x seems to be happening for the longest distance / fastest routes.

A 350-type for regional faster routes (110mph) in 5 car consists, bi-mode inc 3rd rail versions. Could be TPE, WCML 'Northampton Line', SWML, GAML, Corby and so on.

And then a small selection of local (2/3 doors) and regional (wide end doors) in 2 and 3 car combos, with 4 and 5 car versions for London. EMU and DMU variations, or bi-mode combos. All able to be joined and split, all with SDO. But yes, some standardization would be good.

Nothing specific for airports, it's marginal compared to regular travel.
Was this posted in the correct thread?

Leaving aside that fundamentally it will not inflate the cost of trains more than equipment like ETCS or any other safety grade standard equipment trains are required to have.....

This is as opposed to the inflation of the cost caused by massive manufacturer lock in and operational problems caused by the inability of rolling stock to work together, for decades?



Penny wise, pound foolish.
Can you please provide details that explains what you mean and links to any details that may help us understand what you are saying?
 

HSTEd

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Can you please provide details that explains what you mean and links to any details that may help us understand what you are saying?

Ultimately the objective should be a system similar to that used in America for locomotives (the AAR system), where essentially all diesel locomotives built for the last 70 years can operate in multiple with each other.

Such a system was appearing before privatisation, with essentially one DMU, one EMU standard [at least for PEP/Mark 3/Networker], and moves towards a standard TDM system for locomotives.
Privatisation effectively killed all that.
The RSSB has done studies on coupler standardisation and concluded that the benefits of full electrical compatability would be "high", but stopped short of a full quantitative analysis, although they certainly believed mechanical standardisation was worth pursuing purely from a rescue perspective.
 
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D365

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The RSSB has done studies on coupler standardisation and concluded that the benefits of full electrical compatability would be "high", but stopped short of a full quantitative analysis...
Perhaps because they realised that it's impossible to implement when more than two rolling stock manufacturers become involved?

Diesel locomotives are one thing, but passenger multiple units are a whole different kettle of fish.

As for AAR, all I can say is that I'm glad my job doesn't involve ETCS integration with such locomotives...
 

applepie2100

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Rather than trying to make everything work with everything all the time, would it not be better to think about how we can make them work together when it's most needed which is usually when something goes wrong?

Things like ensuring that suitable, easily assembled and readily available emergency couplers, making sure that said couplers don't take hours to get to site and that there are suitably trained staff close by to use them and having the right processes in place to make this all work might be a much better idea. It might also be easier to achieve some form of interoperability if we focused on allowing as many types of locomotive and unit as possible able to provide basic assistance such as lighting power and heating/aircon power when it goes wrong. Essentially having the interoperability when it matters but accepting that some of the nice to haves may not be possible.
 

RobShipway

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Ultimately the objective should be a system similar to that used in America for locomotives (the AAR system), where essentially all diesel locomotives built for the last 70 years can operate in multiple with each other.

Such a system was appearing before privatisation, with essentially one DMU, one EMU standard [at least for PEP/Mark 3/Networker], and moves towards a standard TDM system for locomotives.
Privatisation effectively killed all that.
The RSSB has done studies on coupler standardisation and concluded that the benefits of full electrical compatability would be "high", but stopped short of a full quantitative analysis, although they certainly believed mechanical standardisation was worth pursuing purely from a rescue perspective.
The document does state the following:

"Standardisation of coupling arrangements will bring a major reduction in the time failed trains take to be rescued: it is estimated that delays due to failed trains will halve, saving the industry money. Other benefits include safety benefits for drivers due to the avoidance of accidents from manual coupling, reduced depot maintenance costs from using just one type of coupler, reduced purchase cost of couplers due to competition, cascade benefits from improved use of old rolling stock and reduced operating costs from better utilisation."

One of the paragraphs summaries what types of trains should have what standard of coupler, in this case the couplers are all Dellner couplers:

"A two-tier approach to standardisation is recommended – the Dellner Type 10 coupler, which is already mandated by a Technical Standard for Interoperability for trains with a design speed of 250kmh (155mph) or greater, and the Dellner Type 12 and compatible Voith Type 136 coupler for trains with lower maximum design speeds. This design is known as the Standard Latch Coupler (SLC). A cost model was created which concluded that the estimated costs of retrofitting the SLC coupler to existing vehicles was between £6,500 and £15,000 per vehicle end. The higher costs are for small fleets like the Class 155 Diesel Multiple Units where design costs are spread over fewer trains.

The only regulation preventing adoption of the SLC as a standard design for GB Rail was the TSI which says trains capable of 225 km/h should have the larger Type 10 coupler. As this is only likely to cover trains on the largely free-standing High Speed 1/High Speed 2 routes, it does not materially affect the business case for equipping all other passenger stock in the foreseeable future."

As we don't have many trains with the design speed of 155mph, I guess all trains would be using Dellner Type 12 couplers? So you could have and I am saying this tongue in cheek, a two car class 155 rescuing rescuing a Nova 3 set!

I will leave others to work out the cost by type of locomotive and unit per TOC etc... it would cost to make the suggested changes.

But I have to agree with the comment below:

Rather than trying to make everything work with everything all the time, would it not be better to think about how we can make them work together when it's most needed which is usually when something goes wrong?

Things like ensuring that suitable, easily assembled and readily available emergency couplers, making sure that said couplers don't take hours to get to site and that there are suitably trained staff close by to use them and having the right processes in place to make this all work might be a much better idea. It might also be easier to achieve some form of interoperability if we focused on allowing as many types of locomotive and unit as possible able to provide basic assistance such as lighting power and heating/aircon power when it goes wrong. Essentially having the interoperability when it matters but accepting that some of the nice to haves may not be possible.
 

D365

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As we don't have many trains with the design speed of 155mph, I guess all trains would be using Dellner Type 12 couplers? So you could have and I am saying this tongue in cheek, a two car class 155 rescuing rescuing a Nova 3 set!

I will leave others to work out the cost by type of locomotive and unit per TOC etc... it would cost to make the suggested changes.
Exactly this. Of course it could be made possible, but at what cost??
 

Energy

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Why? It makes some sense in some areas, for example the introduction of incompatible 730s alongside the 350s on the WCML is bound to cause a problem at some point when the random unit generator sticks them together, but why bother getting say a SouthEastern train to work with a West Midlands train? They aren't going to cross paths so why go the extra expense of making sure they can fully control each other, having the same coupling to drag the unit in an emergency is fairly important though and should be considered on new units.
 

Alfie1014

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It was something that the SRA had promoted at the end of 2003 just before it was abolished soon after. C93E8319-DECB-4B08-A0D8-A524FAE7A904.jpegF7D9C5E6-8F98-4DEF-941E-6EA55388475E.jpegBEDF625B-5401-408F-A6E2-C33D815500F7.jpeg
 

Journeyman

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This is yet another not-particularly-significant problem that enthusiasts seem determined to solve, creating more problems in the process!
 

D365

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This is yet another not-particularly-significant problem that enthusiasts seem determined to solve, creating more problems in the process!
The vast majority of the public don’t realise the extent to which hazard identification and risk management is embedded within the railway industry. The more systems that are added to a train, the more hazards are created.

Does anyone really think a rolling stock manufacturer would be best pleased if the ROSCO turns around and asks ”your brand shiny new train, we’d like you to make it 100% compatible in service with Class xxx and yyy” - units that are at least 10 years older and probably from a completely different manufacturer. The costs and delays would become astronomical.
 
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