Could TPE ditch the Mk5 sets?

[Wolfie]

Yes, but being someone that lived not far from Martins Heron station on the Waterloo - Reading route for about 10 years between 2007 - 2017, you would hear all manor of noises coming from the railway at all times of night or day. Whether it be Steam engines or diesel engines pulling excursion trains blowing their horns at people on the platforms or other noises being made from local services stopping or going through the station without stopping.

Being about 5 minutes walk away from Martins Heron station, when I moved in I certainly expected that I would be hearing noises from the railway line. As did many others, who where not rail enthusiasts.

There certainly was a far bit of noise for those that lived nearer to the station, when the platforms where extended as there was a lot of work that went on at night time. But residents where warned about the noise either by leaflets through their letterbox or seeing the details about it within the ticket office. There was also from time to time, people from Network rail at the station ticket office where you could ask questions about the project.

If people are unhappy about the class 68 moving off from the depot at 5am and/or 6am, then that suggests to me that someone from the depot is not communicating to the local community as to why the engines are needing to move at those times. But again, if those people complaining knew that they where living next to a depot then I would have thought that they should allow for the fact that there will be still some noises that you cannot avoid.

I live very close indeed to the North London line and East London line (both in a cutting) at Canonbury and feel faint vibration/shaking when a Eurostar runs through underneath. I personally sympathise with your argument (it took me about three days to get used to and ignore the various freight trains running through the night). However, when periodically early flights into Heathrow are routed over my place l get woken at 0500-0600 every time. An unaccustomed, unexpected noise at a time when there is little background noise often has that effect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I live very close indeed to the North London line and East London line (both in a cutting) at Canonbury and feel faint vibration/shaking when a Eurostar runs through underneath. I personally sympathise with your argument (it took me about three days to get used to and ignore the various freight trains running through the night). However, when periodically early flights into Heathrow are routed over my place l get woken at 0500-0600 every time. An unaccustomed, unexpected noise at a time when there is little background noise often has that effect.

You also notice the absence of noise. When I was 7 we moved to a house which could hear the local church bells on the hour every hour including through the night. This was annoying initially, but soon was mentally ignored, and was only noticeable if they weren't working and didn't chime.

Background road traffic noise in MK is similar - it's always there but in lockdown (or at 4am) it's noticeable for not being.

 

[Wolfie]

You also notice the absence of noise. When I was 7 we moved to a house which could hear the local church bells on the hour every hour including through the night. This was annoying initially, but soon was mentally ignored, and was only noticeable if they weren't working and didn't chime.

Background road traffic noise in MK is similar - it's always there but in lockdown (or at 4am) it's noticeable for not being.

Absolutely. It's the abnormal that your mind spots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely. It's the abnormal that your mind spots.

Another example that springs to mind is that sometimes turbulence on a plane rocks me to sleep but I wake up when it stops.

 

[D6130]

But again, if those people complaining knew that they where living next to a depot then I would have thought that they should allow for the fact that there will be still some noises that you cannot avoid.

I think the main problem is that the depot has been built since most of the residents moved into their houses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the main problem is that the depot has been built since most of the residents moved into their houses.

Is there anywhere else they could be maintained were the depot to be closed?

 

[RobShipway]

I live very close indeed to the North London line and East London line (both in a cutting) at Canonbury and feel faint vibration/shaking when a Eurostar runs through underneath. I personally sympathise with your argument (it took me about three days to get used to and ignore the various freight trains running through the night). However, when periodically early flights into Heathrow are routed over my place l get woken at 0500-0600 every time. An unaccustomed, unexpected noise at a time when there is little background noise often has that effect.

Prior to living in Martins Heron. I lived in Slough and like you say would be hearing planes taking off from 5amm - 11pm most days. I must admit like you took me a few days to realise why I so often hearing jet engines going over the block of flats that I lived in.

I think the main problem is that the depot has been built since most of the residents moved into their houses.

I must confess I did wonder if that might be the case. But to me does state a lack of communication either from the ownership of the depot whether it be the TOC or train manufacturer to the local residents.

Yes, noise needs to be limited where possible. But those living nearby such places, also need to realise that depending on what goes on there is going to be some noise that needs to be allowed, so that the depot can get any engines or trains operational for their days duties.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, noise needs to be limited where possible. But those living nearby such places, also need to realise that depending on what goes on there is going to be some noise that needs to be allowed, so that the depot can get any engines or trains operational for their days duties.

To some extent. The railway does need to modernise its fleet and processes so engines are not running for a long time, such as by way of shore-supply pre-heat. DB have not left engines running on locomotives and DMUs since the 90s, as soon as it stops at the terminus, the engine is switched off immediately.

If the 68s aren't capable of this they need to be modified so they are. They are modern, reliable locomotives so it's not like the old "never stop it else it won't restart" of ageing 37s and the likes.

Or to sum up - yes, they need to be started to move them, but they should not be running when they are not moving.

 

[Purple Orange]

It really doesn't. If you wanted to give TPE a homogeneous fleet, which they probably should have done, 80x would be it.

Precisely. After looking at the distances involved and the proportion of electrified line, the TPE route network is not far removed from the standard of the GWML. It really should have been a case of ordering 32 x 802s and 12 x 801s (for WCML). Given the delay in getting the actual fleet in service, hindsight tells us the mixed fleet was wrong.

 

[RobShipway]

To some extent. The railway does need to modernise its fleet and processes so engines are not running for a long time, such as by way of shore-supply pre-heat. DB have not left engines running on locomotives and DMUs since the 90s, as soon as it stops at the terminus, the engine is switched off immediately.

If the 68s aren't capable of this they need to be modified so they are. They are modern, reliable locomotives so it's not like the old "never stop it else it won't restart" of ageing 37s and the likes.

Or to sum up - yes, they need to be started to move them, but they should not be running when they are not moving.

That is fine, but as Mikey C previously asked why is there not the same issue with the Chiltern 68's? Or is it that the local residents to the Chiltern depot are able to put up with more?

Any engine new or old, will need time to heat up to power mode from cold especially during Autumn/Winter nights. Yes, if a class 68 is already at power mode, then it should be able to move off and be on it's way.

What I personally think should have happened if you are going to have mixed, is that you use class 88 rather than 68 to be powering the passengers trains. Or as Purple Orange states below, you have a fleet from just one manufacturer, rather than multiple manufacturers.

Precisely. After looking at the distances involved and the proportion of electrified line, the TPE route network is not far removed from the standard of the GWML. It really should have been a case of ordering 32 x 802s and 12 x 801s (for WCML). Given the delay in getting the actual fleet in service, hindsight tells us the mixed fleet was wrong.

Before any states that it is just two manufacturers, Hitachi for the class 802 and CAF for the rest of the fleet. Bear in mind that the class 68's where built by Stadler and the class 185 units are built by Siemens. So you have a TOC, that is dealing with at least 4 manufacturers for their fleet of trains through however many leasing companies.

 

[JonathanH]

What I personally think should have happened if you are going to have mixed, is that you use class 88 rather than 68 to be powering the passengers trains.

The 88s don't have enough power to haul the trains over the distances currently needing diesel running at the speeds required.

So you have a TOC, that is dealing with at least 4 manufacturers for their fleet of trains through however many leasing companies.

TPE don't do their own maintenance though so it is a case of being supplied with trains for different routes by service providers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Precisely. After looking at the distances involved and the proportion of electrified line, the TPE route network is not far removed from the standard of the GWML. It really should have been a case of ordering 32 x 802s and 12 x 801s (for WCML). Given the delay in getting the actual fleet in service, hindsight tells us the mixed fleet was wrong.

I'd have gone all 802 and rotated them round to keep the hours the same. The flexibility of being able to run on diesel is very useful.

 

[JonathanH]

I'd have gone all 802 and rotated them round to keep the hours the same. The flexibility of being able to run on diesel is very useful.

It might be flexible but it is also a whole lot more maintenance and electricity consumption to transport unnecessary diesel generating equipment over the WCML if it isn't going to be used.

No one thinks that the Pendolinos need diesel engines on the same route.

What was the comparative cost of 802s and 397s / 68+Mk5s? My guess would be that the 802s are more expensive to lease. Scarborough services don't need a pointy nose.

 

[YorksLad12]

What was the comparative cost of 802s and 397s / 68+Mk5s? My guess would be that the 802s are more expensive to lease. Scarborough services don't need a pointy nose.

Yes they do. Scarborough might not but the places they serve do.

If the problems getting the Mk5a sets running had been anticipated I'd go with the "they should have just ordered lots of 802s" argument. But they weren't anticipated; and the 802s now have their own problems.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes they do. Scarborough might not but the places they serve do.

If the problems getting the Mk5a sets running had been anticipated I'd go with the "they should have just ordered lots of 802s" argument. But they weren't anticipated; and the 802s now have their own problems.

I must admit that the problems with the Mk5s are surprising, but it seems what they have ordered is not simple UIC type LHCS but instead something every bit as complex as a multiple unit, but needing to talk to a locomotive from a different manufacturer. In essence they are modern-day 4-TC units.

I think that was a huge mistake, and if they were ordering LHCS it should have actually been simple, independent-vehicle buckeye-coupled LHCS like Mk3s, give or take some small additional cables between vehicles for the PIS etc.

If you're going to order a multiple unit it might as well be powered. With the quality of engine noise insulation on 80x (you can hardly hear it at all) there is nothing gained at all by ordering unpowered MUs.

 

[Purple Orange]

It might be flexible but it is also a whole lot more maintenance and electricity consumption to transport unnecessary diesel generating equipment over the WCML if it isn't going to be used.

No one thinks that the Pendolinos need diesel engines on the same route.

What was the comparative cost of 802s and 397s / 68+Mk5s? My guess would be that the 802s are more expensive to lease. Scarborough services don't need a pointy nose.

Surely all 4 fast TPE services should be 80X on the core. We will surely be heading towards a homogeneous fleet across the Pennines at some point - I doubt we will see a mixed fleet for NPR.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely all 4 fast TPE services should be 80X on the core. We will surely be heading towards a homogeneous fleet across the Pennines at some point - I doubt we will see a mixed fleet for NPR.

That's one reason I propose chucking the Mk5s onto Liverpool to Nottingham - it's away from the soon-to-be-wired core.

The 80x need extending to 7 or 8 coaches before the production line closes, too. COVID has just bought a bit of time. 5-car is what was needed when the 185s were built - we need to go full-length now, and start passively providing for 10-car.

 

[Purple Orange]

That's one reason I propose chucking the Mk5s onto Liverpool to Nottingham - it's away from the soon-to-be-wired core.

The 80x need extending to 7 or 8 coaches before the production line closes, too. COVID has just bought a bit of time. 5-car is what was needed when the 185s were built - we need to go full-length now, and start passively providing for 10-car.

I could see the Mk5a units on a Manchester to Nottingham service, but if it continues to be Liverpool to Nottingham via Castlefield, then it should really be trains with doors at 3rds.

Who knows what will come of the NPR fleet, but if we are talking about 4 fast, 2 semi-fast and 2 stoppers through the core then perhaps the Middlesbrough and Scarborough services will see a different service level. NPR is meant to have 6 fast tph, but I suspect it will be downgraded.

In the end we might see:

• 4 fast NPR services constituting 200m trains Classic Compatible Trains
  • 2 x Birmingham New Street, Wolverhampton, Stafford, Crewe, Manchester Airport HS2, Manchester Piccadilly HS2, Huddersfield, Leeds, Hull (assuming electrification to Hull)
  • 2 x Birmingham Curzon Street, Manchester Airport HS2, Manchester Piccadilly HS2, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
• 2 semi-fast Regional Express 6-car units with doors at 3rds.
  • 1 x Liverpool Lime Street, Newton, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York, Scarborough
  • 1 x Liverpool Lime Street, Newton, Manchester Victoria, Stalybridge, Huddersfield, Dewsbury, Leeds, York, Middlesbrough.

 

[Bigman]

Would the new Class 93 be of any use in this respect for TPE?

 

[RailWonderer]

What I think has been forgotten is that TPE needed trains delivered on a fast timescale pre-Covid when many high peak and shoulder peak 185s were frequently full and standing and many were complaining, especially on here. Hitachi were busy with LNER, GWR and Scotrail so they ordered a few IETs and the 397s instead of 801 electrics. The Mk5 sets are beyond me though. They only run a few Liverpool Scarboroughs and several of those paths terminate at York or Manchester and run as 185s still.

 

[RobShipway]

Would the new Class 93 be of any use in this respect for TPE?

It is suppose to be as quick in diesel/battery mode with a top speed of 110, which it should also be able to do using OHLE. The locomotive though I believe is being designed as a pure freight loco whereas the class 68 was designed a mixed traffic loco. The other issue you have is that the class 93 is not due until 2023.

 

[JonathanH]

The Mk5 sets are beyond me though. They only run a few Liverpool Scarboroughs and several of those paths terminate at York or Manchester and run as 185s still.

Their usage pattern is a result of Covid and priority being given beforehand to getting the 802 and 397 fleets into service.

The only reason the 68+Mk5s run any services at all at the moment is to maintain staff knowledge from the few traincrew with the relevant knowledge. A decision to reallocate the slack in the 802 fleet and keep all the 185s really ought to see them off.

A quick trawl of RTT shows 44 185s allocated and 11 802s out of a fleet of 51 and 19 respectively. It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of a fleet planner to replace 3 68 diagrams with the spare units. They are clearly overkill for York to Scarborough shuttles and the main base for them is in Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Their usage pattern is a result of Covid and priority being given beforehand to getting the 802 and 397 fleets into service.

The only reason the 68+Mk5s run any services at all at the moment is to maintain staff knowledge from the few traincrew with the relevant knowledge. A decision to reallocate the slack in the 802 fleet and keep all the 185s really ought to see them off.

A quick trawl of RTT shows 44 185s allocated and 11 802s out of a fleet of 51 and 19 respectively. It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of a fleet planner to replace 3 68 diagrams with the spare units. They are clearly overkill for York to Scarborough shuttles and the main base for them is in Manchester.

I think you're missing that Liverpool to Scarborough is likely to be reinstated at some point. The current reduced service could certainly be provided using stock other than Mk5s, but not the full one.

 

[Watershed]

Their usage pattern is a result of Covid and priority being given beforehand to getting the 802 and 397 fleets into service.

The only reason the 68+Mk5s run any services at all at the moment is to maintain staff knowledge from the few traincrew with the relevant knowledge. A decision to reallocate the slack in the 802 fleet and keep all the 185s really ought to see them off.

A quick trawl of RTT shows 44 185s allocated and 11 802s out of a fleet of 51 and 19 respectively. It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of a fleet planner to replace 3 68 diagrams with the spare units. They are clearly overkill for York to Scarborough shuttles and the main base for them is in Manchester.

In theory, yes you could cover 3 68 diagrams with 3 802s. But it would require a significant restribution of the work, probably requiring Manchester to be trained on 802s in lieu of 68s (which is hardly going to happen overnight!).

Although there are nominally 8 spare/maintenance 802s, the cracking "problem" means that things are actually quite tight at the moment. Again, that's not due to be resolved anytime soon.

And once a full(er) service is reintroduced, you definitely won't be able to manage with just 51 185s and 19 802s. Not unless you want to go back to the dark days of crammed single 185s! So it's a perfectly reasonable compromise to keep things 'ticking over' with 3 68s.

 

[LittleAH]

A quick trawl of RTT shows 44 185s allocated and 11 802s out of a fleet of 51 and 19 respectively. It really shouldn't be beyond the wit of a fleet planner to replace 3 68 diagrams with the spare units. They are clearly overkill for York to Scarborough shuttles and the main base for them is in Manchester.

The York-Scarborough shuttle is completely temporary as part of the Covid timetable and having been on a return journey over the Bank Holiday on them are not overkill given the amount of pax who were on boards. Not to mention the need for drivers to have traction knowledge as the 68s will in time begin on the Redcar route. So it's not remotely feasible for any fleet planner to take the Mk5s out of the timetable, especially with the significant backlog in training.

 

[Bigman]

Just get TPE to take over Leeds to Carlisle (as it should be IMHO being a Trans-Pennine route). Would be brilliant with a 68.

 

[Fokx]

L

Just get TPE to take over Leeds to Carlisle (as it should be IMHO being a Trans-Pennine route). Would be brilliant with a 68.

In that scenario a 3 car 185 would be more appropriate, the capacity of a Nova 3 is much better required elsewhere on the ‘core’.

Again this is highly unlikely as TPE have no traincrew depots in Leeds or Carlisle, and an almost three hour all stations stopping service with frequent calls of less than 10 minutes is more suited to Northern.

 

[RobShipway]

Maybe should be in the thread for the Uckfield line, but could the MK5's work in cooperation with a class 73 loco?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe should be in the thread for the Uckfield line, but could the MK5's work in cooperation with a class 73 loco?

Too short, Uckfield mostly needs more than 5-car.

 

[JonathanH]

Too short, Uckfield mostly needs more than 5-car.

Not if the locomotive goes in the middle of two sets - 755 style without the walk through - very speculative though and probably too long. They clearly won't work with a 73 in any case being somewhat more advanced.