Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[507020]

Do the Manchester-Southport trains sit on the juice rail at Southport - if so a battery 319 could recharge there.

No, only platforms 1-3 at Southport are electrified. Northern trains use platforms 4-6. It is possible to reach P3 from Wigan but this would interfere with the Merseyrail service. Platforms 4-6 were originally electrified and used by the electric service to Crossens, so it could be put back.

 

[Grannyjoans]

The 769s are sluggish on Diesel, the fact is they are slightly slower than a 150 and they are sluggish especially by todays standards where 331 has set the benchmark.

Between stations they can be doing 3 to 5mph less than a 150 would be at the same point.

In Electric mode they are much quicker despite the sluggish initial acceleration (something 319's have always had), and at times they can be doing over 10mph more than a 150 would be at the same point.

 

[AM9]

The 769s are sluggish on Diesel, the fact is they are slightly slower than a 150 and they are sluggish especially by todays standards where 331 has set the benchmark.

Top speed achieved between stations on the Southport and Hindley Lines is normally around 3 to 5mph lower than a 150 and the initial acceleration from a stand is very sluggish but 319s always had that problem.

319s didn't have problems with acceleration on Thameslink, they were happily doing very intensive work for 25+ years on a really busy mainline and more recently running in with class 350s on the WCML. When the bugs are cleared and the drivers get used to them they will be more than good enough for the backwater branch line that Wigan to Southport is, with the additional ability to keep to schedule on electrified lines. Your 'benchmark' class 331s would be rubbish west of Lostock.

 

[507020]

The 769s are sluggish on Diesel, the fact is they are slightly slower than a 150 and they are sluggish especially by todays standards where 331 has set the benchmark.

Between stations they can be doing 3 to 5mph less than a 150 would be at the same point.

In Electric mode they are much quicker despite the sluggish initial acceleration (something 319's have always had), and at times they can be doing over 10mph more than a 150 would be at the same point.

I hardly think 331s are the benchmark. I’ve always thought the traction equipment on the 331 (and 195) fleet is of much higher specification than the rest of the train (as has become apparent with the yaw damper issue) and their performance goes far beyond anything else the north of England has ever had.

If you were to race a 150 and a 769 on Diesel, I think the 769 would be ahead for the first few seconds as initial acceleration of a DEMU is better, then be overtaken by the 150 when it catches up and then then overtake the 150 once it gets above 75mph and the 150 doesn’t.

319s (built at the height of Thatcherism) have only ever had a single motor carriage while other EMUs with better acceleration have 2 including earlier 313/507/508s, the 350s and now 331s.

319s didn't have problems with acceleration on Thameslink, they were happily doing very intensive work for 25+ years on a really busy mainline

Is there a reason why their acceleration was better on Thameslink than it is now?

they will be more than good enough for the backwater branch line that Wigan to Southport is

As a Southport resident I’ll have you know that Southport isn’t anything like a “backwater”

 

[Killingworth]

As a Southport resident I’ll have you know that Southport isn’t anything like a “backwater”

It was only the advent of 769s got me there on Breakout Monday last week, but my wife liked the town. We visited the art gallery and museum, had morning coffee in M & S, lunch inside a pub and cream tea outside. We walked the pier and found the exchange rate of 10d to the pound to use the slot machines.......... amusing. We walked through Victoria Gardens and saw Rotten Row a long way from its former glory. Apparently it's the seaside, but it was a long way out and there was a perishing cold wind!

We had no problems with our 769 journeys.

 

[507020]

It was only the advent of 769s got me there on Breakout Monday last week, but my wife liked the town. We visited the art gallery and museum, had morning coffee in M & S, lunch inside a pub and cream tea outside. We walked the pier and found the exchange rate of 10d to the pound to use the slot machines.......... amusing. We walked through Victoria Gardens and saw Rotten Row a long way from its former glory. Apparently it's the seaside, but it was a long way out and there was a perishing cold wind!

We had no problems with our 769 journeys.

That’s all very good to hear! I don’t know where they get those pre decimal coins from at the pier anymore. Imagine how many they lose to ‘collectors’ after their visit. I once saw a shop somewhere trying to sell 1d for £2.50. 600x it’s face value! I said I’d be more likely to buy it if I knew what year it was but they refused to show me. Can’t remember where that was now.

There was once a railway bridge over what is now Morrisons car park (the throat of the former CLC station) linking Rotten Row to the Promenade and M&S may be a candidate for demolition in favour of platform lengthening at the current (former L&Y) station to facilitate the new Merseyrail class 777 fleet.

The good news is if people like yourselves are able to have a visit to Southport without being inconvenienced by the unreliability of the 769 is on either of your 2 journeys on them, then that won’t discourage you from returning to Southport.

 

[XAM2175]

Is there a reason why their acceleration was better on Thameslink than it is now?

The consensus is that Northern drivers are told to drive them in a more gentle fashion.

 

[Richard Scott]

319s (built at the height of Thatcherism) have only ever had a single motor carriage while other EMUs with better acceleration have 2 including earlier 313/507/508s, the 350s and now 331s.

Not sure what politics has got to do with number of motor coaches? Single motor coaches in four car units were around long before Thatcherism! 4-Veps and 4-Cigs for example.

 

[AM9]

Not sure what politics has got to do with number of motor coaches? Single motor coaches in four car units were around long before Thatcherism! 4-Veps and 4-Cigs for example.

With the exception of the PEP derivatives and some ex 1500VDC examples, all ac EMUs had their driven axles concentrated on the same car as the pantograph/transformer. That helped by using as much of the necessary equipment mass as adhesive weight, e.g. the MKlll units' usually has MSOs that weighed around 50 tonnes whereas the other cars were around 30 tonnes. It was different on 3rd rail units where the powered bogies tended to be at the extremities under the driver's cabs along with collector shoes to minimise conductor rail 'gapping'.
Similar design principles were applied to the BR MKl ac & DC EMUs.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

... 319s (built at the height of Thatcherism) have only ever had a single motor carriage while other EMUs with better acceleration have 2 including earlier 313/507/508s, the 350s and now 331s.
Is there a reason why their acceleration was better on Thameslink than it is now? ...

The 313s, 507s & 508s are designed for inner suburban and metro type working, and they are geared for 75mph maximum speed, so their lowe speed acceleration would be better anyway. The Desiros (as well as hundreds of Electrostars) are much more modern designs with far higher rated ac motors and variable frequency electronic drives. So like comparing a side valve 1000cc morris minor with a 1000cc VW Polo, - pointless!
The 319s were driven using their full perfomance whilst on Thameslink services, particularly on the MML section north of London. They had to be because their diagrams routed them on and off the fast lines between Kentish Town and Luton to slot between 125 mph non-stop IC services using HSTs and Meridian DEMUs. Even south of the river, the class 319 held the record for London to Brighton non-stop from 1994 until 2005 when a much higher power Electrostar reduced the 319s time from just under 38 minutes to just under 37 minuites.

... As a Southport resident I’ll have you know that Southport isn’t anything like a “backwater”

I didn't say that Southport was a backwater, I've been there and it's quite a pleasant seaside town. It's main connection with elsewhere is via Merseyrail.
The line that connects it with Wigan does present itself as a branch line run through backwaters, I travelled the distance both on a Pacer and a 150, both quiet* leisurely journeys, apart from the racket of the 150s.

 

[Grannyjoans]

If you were to race a 150 and a 769 on Diesel, I think the 769 would be ahead for the first few seconds as initial acceleration of a DEMU is better, then be overtaken by the 150 when it catches up and then then overtake the 150 once it gets above 75mph and the 150 doesn’t.

A 150 can beat even a 319 up to 15mph, initial acceleration is very slow on 319/769.

A 319 would then pull well ahead of a 150 after 15mph. A 769 in Diesel mode is slightly slower than a 150 throughout. A 769 in electric mode still feels very similar to a 319 despite the extra weight.

769's currently are not allowed to travel over 75mph anyway so the top end speed is useless.

319s didn't have problems with acceleration on Thameslink, they were happily doing very intensive work for 25+ years on a really busy mainline

It's just the initial acceleration where a 319 is slow, once they get above 15mph they accelerate pretty quickly. However, most of the services Northern use them on usually involve stopping at a station every 3 minutes.

 

[itsonlyme]

No, only platforms 1-3 at Southport are electrified. Northern trains use platforms 4-6. It is possible to reach P3 from Wigan but this would interfere with the Merseyrail service. Platforms 4-6 were originally electrified and used by the electric service to Crossens, so it could be put back.

Platforms 4-6 at Southport were never electrified. The Platforms used for the Crossens Service were platforms 9 & 10 (most trains using 9) which are now under the car park between the present platforms and London Street.

It was possible for a Crossens Train to arrive in Platform 3. One did every morning around 8:57 as I used it when a schoolboy to connect onto the 09:00 Manchester service which left from Platform 4. I do not recall any regular departures from Platform 3 for the Crossens line.

There was also platform 11. A short stub of a platform set into Platform 10. This was used prewar for Altcar Bob. A Railmotor used for the service to Altcar which ceased around the end of the 1930's. I think this platform may also have been electrified

Any corrections appreciated as the memory is rather elderly.

 

[Ribbleman]

Deleted.

 

[AM9]

A 150 can beat even a 319 up to 15mph, initial acceleration is very slow on 319/769.

A 319 would then pull well ahead of a 150 after 15mph. A 769 in Diesel mode is slightly slower than a 150 throughout. A 769 in electric mode still feels very similar to a 319 despite the extra weight.

769's currently are not allowed to travel over 75mph anyway so the top end speed is useless.



It's just the initial acceleration where a 319 is slow, once they get above 15mph they accelerate pretty quickly. However, most of the services Northern use them on usually involve stopping at a station every 3 minutes.

Which is the same as the 319s that were running on the metro service, between St Pancras and Radlett (a distance of 16 miles) there are 6 intermediate stops. The times (in minutes) between those stations were: 3m, 5m, 3m, 3m, 4m, 4m & 4m.
If that doesn't look like much of a challenge, remember that many of the evening peak trains would start from St Pancras with all seats occupied and about another 10-20 standees per car. Also, the start from St Pancras low level involves climbing a 1:29 gradient with that peak load. So there's not much that the 319s (ore 769s under OLE) haven't coped with before.
I've used Thameslink for 28 years and except for one failure when the DC to ac changeover failed at Farringdon, never have I been in a 319 that failed to make the steep gradients in the core. What is the difference, - well the drivers learnt how to get the necessary performance out of them, (there was insufficient headway to pussyfoot around). Over the last 6 years there's been this constant moaning here about 319s in the northwest, mainly I suspect because they aren't brand new and they were cascaded from London & soth east services. The 769s are intended to serve slower and quieter non-electrified lines, yet keep up with other EMUs when under OLE. It seem that apart from a few bugs and giving the drivers sufficient opportunity to understand their quirks, they are delivering just that. If they fail to do that, then their duties will be handed back to 2-car class 150s (or whatever is going spare at the time).

 

[507020]

Not sure what politics has got to do with number of motor coaches? Single motor coaches in four car units were around long before Thatcherism! 4-Veps and 4-Cigs for example.

319s and 150s built in the mid 80s seem to me to be of much lower specification and build quality than they could have been, especially considering the much more advanced PEP derivatives built 10 years earlier. I believe the old EMUs were also of much better build quality. (Not to mention Pacers)

With the exception of the PEP derivatives and some ex 1500VDC examples, all ac EMUs had their driven axles concentrated on the same car as the pantograph/transformer. That helped by using as much of the necessary equipment mass as adhesive weight, e.g. the MKlll units' usually has MSOs that weighed around 50 tonnes whereas the other cars were around 30 tonnes. It was different on 3rd rail units where the powered bogies tended to be at the extremities under the driver's cabs along with collector shoes to minimise conductor rail 'gapping'.
Similar design principles were applied to the BR MKl ac & DC EMUs.

The 313s, 507s & 508s are designed for inner suburban and metro type working, and they are geared for 75mph maximum speed, so their lowe speed acceleration would be better anyway. The Desiros (as well as hundreds of Electrostars) are much more modern designs with far higher rated ac motors and variable frequency electronic drives. So like comparing a side valve 1000cc morris minor with a 1000cc VW Polo, - pointless!
The 319s were driven using their full perfomance whilst on Thameslink services, particularly on the MML section north of London. They had to be because their diagrams routed them on and off the fast lines between Kentish Town and Luton to slot between 125 mph non-stop IC services using HSTs and Meridian DEMUs. Even south of the river, the class 319 held the record for London to Brighton non-stop from 1994 until 2005 when a much higher power Electrostar reduced the 319s time from just under 38 minutes to just under 37 minuites.

I didn't say that Southport was a backwater, I've been there and it's quite a pleasant seaside town. It's main connection with elsewhere is via Merseyrail.
The line that connects it with Wigan does present itself as a branch line run through backwaters, I travelled the distance both on a Pacer and a 150, both quiet* leisurely journeys, apart from the racket of the 150s.

All very informative. The PEP derivatives were originally not allowed to have a 750V bus line running the length of the unit, but were later fitted with one. Was the Southern practice not to have a single motor coach in the middle of the unit. Did the early SR units have a 750V DC bus line or did they rely on units running in multiple to avoid gapping. Also were the Thameslink services the only ones to use EMUs on the Midland until the EMR Desiros last week?

I’m glad you found Southport pleasant. As a town of 100k people, the fact that the line largely has to run through backwaters to reach it from the other large population centres of Wigan, Bolton and Manchester seems irrelevant. Does the WCML at no point run through backwaters on the way from London to Glasgow?

A 150 can beat even a 319 up to 15mph, initial acceleration is very slow on 319/769.

A 319 would then pull well ahead of a 150 after 15mph. A 769 in Diesel mode is slightly slower than a 150 throughout. A 769 in electric mode still feels very similar to a 319 despite the extra weight.

769's currently are not allowed to travel over 75mph anyway so the top end speed is useless.

It's just the initial acceleration where a 319 is slow, once they get above 15mph they accelerate pretty quickly. However, most of the services Northern use them on usually involve stopping at a station every 3 minutes.

I was referring to the initial 2 or 3 seconds while the 150 is just spinning up its engine. An electric motor would be able to beat it just about until the 150 starts moving.

Some of the stations between Southport and Manchester are a good 10 minutes apart.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

Platforms 4-6 at Southport were never electrified. The Platforms used for the Crossens Service were platforms 9 & 10 (most trains using 9) which are now under the car park between the present platforms and London Street.

It was possible for a Crossens Train to arrive in Platform 3. One did every morning around 8:57 as I used it when a schoolboy to connect onto the 09:00 Manchester service which left from Platform 4. I do not recall any regular departures from Platform 3 for the Crossens line.

There was also platform 11. A short stub of a platform set into Platform 10. This was used prewar for Altcar Bob. A Railmotor used for the service to Altcar which ceased around the end of the 1930's. I think this platform may also have been electrified

Any corrections appreciated as the memory is rather elderly.

This is also very informative. I greatly appreciate such an elderly memory, particularly of the Altcar Bob. A bridge is still extant at Hillhouse Junction, now accessible only by bicycle from Woodvale or Maghull.

Were there not services that ran directly from Birkdale to Meols Cop/Hesketh Park? Through workings from the Liverpool Overhead Railway may have done this. If these served Southport they must have reversed out of the same platform they arrived in. Until the 1990s it was possible to reach Platform 2 from Meols Cop, but I don’t think it was frequently done.

I’m sure you’ll be able to recall that the present retaining wall of the car park onto London Street was the originally the retaining wall of the station, that still had “Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway” written on it until the 1960s. Were the (very worn looking) stairs onto the car park at the end of London Street another entrance to the station?

Which is the same as the 319s that were running on the metro service, between St Pancras and Radlett (a distance of 16 miles) there are 6 intermediate stops. The times (in minutes) between those stations were: 3m, 5m, 3m, 3m, 4m, 4m & 4m.
If that doesn't look like much of a challenge, remember that many of the evening peak trains would start from St Pancras with all seats occupied and about another 10-20 standees per car. Also, the start from St Pancras low level involves climbing a 1:29 gradient with that peak load. So there's not much that the 319s (ore 769s under OLE) haven't coped with before.
I've used Thameslink for 28 years and except for one failure when the DC to ac changeover failed at Farringdon, never have I been in a 319 that failed to make the steep gradients in the core. What is the difference, - well the drivers learnt how to get the necessary performance out of them, (there was insufficient headway to pussyfoot around). Over the last 6 years there's been this constant moaning here about 319s in the northwest, mainly I suspect because they aren't brand new and they were cascaded from London & soth east services. The 769s are intended to serve slower and quieter non-electrified lines, yet keep up with other EMUs when under OLE. It seem that apart from a few bugs and giving the drivers sufficient opportunity to understand their quirks, they are delivering just that. If they fail to do that, then their duties will be handed back to 2-car class 150s (or whatever is going spare at the time).

When they were new, Network SouthEast which had ordered them for the new Thameslink service would have more than enough resources for driver training and it was serious about their performance and it’s reputation.

Northern Rail has no reputation to speak of and upon receiving 30 year old “cast offs” from London it trained what drivers it could find (Arriva being incapable of having staff in the right places when they were needed) to treat them effectively as antiques which can’t be used to their full capabilities, which doesn’t help.

The constant moaning about them in the North West is justified as they now have the worst interior of the entire Northern fleet, lacking the bike spaces and USB chargers that were common on Southport services until last week. Missing bike spaces are of particular complaint as NSE/Thameslink did not allow bikes on trains at the time of their introduction, but Northern is one of a number of operators to universally allow bikes on all services despite not all trains now being equipped to carry them.

On Saturday when I pointed this out on a 769, the guard told me that a doctor commutes to Manchester from Southport every morning with his bike, using it to continue his journey from the station to the hospital where he works, only to find that there is no longer anywhere to put it. A priority for Great British Railways has to be to rip out the former first class seating and install the kind of bike spaces present on Sprinters.

The fact that Northern also serves a number of rural areas where people want to take bikes to for rides in the countryside only magnify this problem further. The 319s running out of Lime Street are also dirty on the inside and many still have First Capital Connect branding and seats.

If Class 360s will receive a new interior more suitable for the Corby services they will now operate, why are 319/769s stuck with a 30 year old Thameslink interior which isn’t suitable at all for use in the North West?

 

[chiltern trev]

Were there not services that ran directly from Birkdale to Meols Cop/Hesketh Park? Through workings from the Liverpool Overhead Railway may have done this. If these served Southport they must have reversed out of the same platform they arrived in. Until the 1990s it was possible to reach Platform 2 from Meols Cop, but I don’t think it was frequently done.

I don't recall there ever being direct services between Birkdale and Meols Cop. There was a double track electrified curve avoiding the station that would have facilitated ECS moves, etc. Platform 2 has never been reachable from the Wigan/Manchester and Preston lines - only platform 3 has been reachable.

 

[AM9]

... Also were the Thameslink services the only ones to use EMUs on the Midland until the EMR Desiros last week?

The MML was electrified in the early '80s and (after a DOO dispute with the unions was resolved, class 317s were initially used. When the Thameslink core was opened, they were replaced with 319s.

I’m glad you found Southport pleasant. As a town of 100k people, the fact that the line largely has to run through backwaters to reach it from the other large population centres of Wigan, Bolton and Manchester seems irrelevant. Does the WCML at no point run through backwaters on the way from London to Glasgow? ...

My experience on the line was that it campares to a quiet line with very small stations and at the time very few passengers. With one all stops and one intermediate train per hour it felt like one of the East Anglian lines but with older stock.

Some of the stations between Southport and Manchester are a good 10 minutes apart.

From Wigan To Southport the stops in minutes are spaced apart: 2,4,4,3,4,2,4,5,8, so not that far apart.

 

[507020]

I don't recall there ever being direct services between Birkdale and Meols Cop. There was a double track electrified curve avoiding the station that would have facilitated ECS moves, etc. Platform 2 has never been reachable from the Wigan/Manchester and Preston lines - only platform 3 has been reachable.

I’m going back 100 years but there were Crossens-Liverpool Exchange expresses which avoided Southport. Platform 2 was definitely accessible from Wigan I’ve seen pictures of the line connected as recently as the early 1990s. There is a walkway presently visible with 2 bits of rail not connected to anything, which originally connected Meols Cop to Platform 2. It was first cut back to a siding and then removed entirely, except for the walkway.

The MML was electrified in the early '80s and (after a DOO dispute with the unions was resolved, class 317s were initially used. When the Thameslink core was opened, they were replaced with 319s.


My experience on the line was that it campares to a quiet line with very small stations and at the time very few passengers. With one all stops and one intermediate train per hour it felt like one of the East Anglian lines but with older stock.


From Wigan To Southport the stops in minutes are spaced apart: 2,4,4,3,4,2,4,5,8, so not that far apart.

I’m aware of the dispute regarding 317s, but not that they ran on the MML. I’m assuming they ran Bedford-St Pancras then.

From Wigan-Southport, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane are only served by 1 train every 2 hours. With these stops omitted the remaining stops are spaced 5, 4, 4, 5, 8, 7. The longer times I was referring to were from Manchester to Wigan, 5, 10, 8, 4, 6, omitting Deansgate and Ince.

It should be noted that the train will be travelling at wildly different speeds between different stations.

 

[DelW]

I’m aware of the dispute regarding 317s, but not that they ran on the MML. I’m assuming they ran Bedford-St Pancras then.

In my 1983 Ian Allan Combined Volume, class 317 is described as "Bedford - St Pancras / Moorgate Four-Car Units".

IIRC they were nicknamed BedPan units at the time.

 

[AM9]

I’m going back 100 years but there were Crossens-Liverpool Exchange expresses which avoided Southport. Platform 2 was definitely accessible from Wigan I’ve seen pictures of the line connected as recently as the early 1990s. There is a walkway presently visible with 2 bits of rail not connected to anything, which originally connected Meols Cop to Platform 2. It was first cut back to a siding and then removed entirely, except for the walkway.

I’m aware of the dispute regarding 317s, but not that they ran on the MML. I’m assuming they ran Bedford-St Pancras then.

From Wigan-Southport, Hoscar, New Lane and Bescar Lane are only served by 1 train every 2 hours. With these stops omitted the remaining stops are spaced 5, 4, 4, 5, 8, 7. The longer times I was referring to were from Manchester to Wigan, 5, 10, 8, 4, 6, omitting Deansgate and Ince.

It should be noted that the train will be travelling at wildly different speeds between different stations.

I use MML in the context of the whole formation. Although I wasn't in this part of the world in the '80s, I believe that both the fasts and slows were electrified at the same time. It's the nature of the flows that the metro service demands mean that all shacks services make the slows unsuitable for the outer suburban trains., Especially between Kentish Town and St Albans. Since Thameslink was introduced, (and maybe before when all trains terminated at Moorgate, the fast TL services have used the fast tracks on paths slotted in between the IC services. Even then some of them stop at West Hapstead which really does squeeze the headway. Similarly the semi-fasts miss some of the metro stations and limit the options for the rest of the slow line services.
These practices continue today although the paths are much tighter which is why the 700s have much greater acceleration and the crossover pointwork is much faster.

 

[superkev]

I wonder how much the 769 program has cost per unit compared with buying new or even putting some more wires up.
K

 

[Ribbleman]

319s and 150s built in the mid 80s seem to me to be of much lower specification and build quality than they could have been, especially considering the much more advanced PEP derivatives built 10 years earlier. I believe the old EMUs were also of much better build quality. (Not to mention Pacers)

All very informative. The PEP derivatives were originally not allowed to have a 750V bus line running the length of the unit, but were later fitted with one. Was the Southern practice not to have a single motor coach in the middle of the unit. Did the early SR units have a 750V DC bus line or did they rely on units running in multiple to avoid gapping. Also were the Thameslink services the only ones to use EMUs on the Midland until the EMR Desiros last week?

I’m glad you found Southport pleasant. As a town of 100k people, the fact that the line largely has to run through backwaters to reach it from the other large population centres of Wigan, Bolton and Manchester seems irrelevant. Does the WCML at no point run through backwaters on the way from London to Glasgow?

I was referring to the initial 2 or 3 seconds while the 150 is just spinning up its engine. An electric motor would be able to beat it just about until the 150 starts moving.

Some of the stations between Southport and Manchester are a good 10 minutes apart.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==


This is also very informative. I greatly appreciate such an elderly memory, particularly of the Altcar Bob. A bridge is still extant at Hillhouse Junction, now accessible only by bicycle from Woodvale or Maghull.

Were there not services that ran directly from Birkdale to Meols Cop/Hesketh Park? Through workings from the Liverpool Overhead Railway may have done this. If these served Southport they must have reversed out of the same platform they arrived in. Until the 1990s it was possible to reach Platform 2 from Meols Cop, but I don’t think it was frequently done.

I’m sure you’ll be able to recall that the present retaining wall of the car park onto London Street was the originally the retaining wall of the station, that still had “Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway” written on it until the 1960s. Were the (very worn looking) stairs onto the car park at the end of London Street another entrance to the station?

When they were new, Network SouthEast which had ordered them for the new Thameslink service would have more than enough resources for driver training and it was serious about their performance and it’s reputation.

Northern Rail has no reputation to speak of and upon receiving 30 year old “cast offs” from London it trained what drivers it could find (Arriva being incapable of having staff in the right places when they were needed) to treat them effectively as antiques which can’t be used to their full capabilities, which doesn’t help.

The constant moaning about them in the North West is justified as they now have the worst interior of the entire Northern fleet, lacking the bike spaces and USB chargers that were common on Southport services until last week. Missing bike spaces are of particular complaint as NSE/Thameslink did not allow bikes on trains at the time of their introduction, but Northern is one of a number of operators to universally allow bikes on all services despite not all trains now being equipped to carry them.

On Saturday when I pointed this out on a 769, the guard told me that a doctor commutes to Manchester from Southport every morning with his bike, using it to continue his journey from the station to the hospital where he works, only to find that there is no longer anywhere to put it. A priority for Great British Railways has to be to rip out the former first class seating and install the kind of bike spaces present on Sprinters.

The fact that Northern also serves a number of rural areas where people want to take bikes to for rides in the countryside only magnify this problem further. The 319s running out of Lime Street are also dirty on the inside and many still have First Capital Connect branding and seats.

If Class 360s will receive a new interior more suitable for the Corby services they will now operate, why are 319/769s stuck with a 30 year old Thameslink interior which isn’t suitable at all for use in the North West?

It’s surprising that Northern have not made provision for carrying bicycles on the 769s. Was this a deliberate decision or just something that has been overlooked? The question of the 319 interiors will disappear for Northern when they are replaced with the 323s transferred from West Midlands.

 

[scrapy]

It’s surprising that Northern have not made provision for carrying bicycles on the 769s. Was this a deliberate decision or just something that has been overlooked? The question of the 319 interiors will disappear for Northern when they are replaced with the 323s transferred from West Midlands.

Aren't 323s just as rubbish 4 bike space as 319s/769s?

 

[507020]

It’s surprising that Northern have not made provision for carrying bicycles on the 769s. Was this a deliberate decision or just something that has been overlooked? The question of the 319 interiors will disappear for Northern when they are replaced with the 323s transferred from West Midlands.

Its definitely been overlooked. They’ve just left the 1988 Thameslink interior exactly as it is. 319 interiors will disappear from electric only 319s when they are withdrawn but remain on 769s after West Midlands 323s transfer.

Aren't 323s just as rubbish 4 bike space as 319s/769s?

Nearly. The 323 interior is still dated but the aisle seems to be wider and it’s somehow possible to get a bike through the doors between carriages. I have to say 323 interiors look a lot better in West Midlands orange than Northern blue.

 

[jonesy3001]

Its definitely been overlooked. They’ve just left the 1988 Thameslink interior exactly as it is. 319 interiors will disappear from electric only 319s when they are withdrawn but remain on 769s after West Midlands 323s transfer.

Nearly. The 323 interior is still dated but the aisle seems to be wider and it’s somehow possible to get a bike through the doors between carriages. I have to say 323 interiors look a lot better in West Midlands orange than Northern blue.

The "17" that are transferring over to northern will look like that soon.

 

[Grannyjoans]

Some of the stations between Southport and Manchester are a good 10 minutes apart

Really depends whether it's the Alderley Edge's which misses a good few stations out, or the Stalybridge's which often stops at everything except Ince and Clifton!

319 interiors will disappear from electric only 319s when they are withdrawn but remain on 769s after West Midlands 323s transfer.

When does the West Midlands 323 transfer begin ?

 

[507020]

Really depends whether it's the Alderley Edge's which misses a good few stations out, or the Stalybridge's which often stops at everything except Ince and Clifton!

The Stalybridge often does stop at Ince and Clifton!

When does the West Midlands 323 transfer begin ?

Once the Class 730 Aventras enter service.

 

[Gricer99]

The Stalybridge often does stop at Ince and Clifton!

Once the Class 730 Aventras enter service.

Often? Clifton gets one train a day in each direction!

 

[507020]

Often? Clifton gets one train a day in each direction!

That’s 7x more often than any of the stations that only get one train a week! Reddish South and Denton come to mind!

More scientifically if there are 14 trains a day from Southport to Stalybridge and 13 from Stalybridge to Southport, then trains between Southport and Stalybridge call at Clifton on average 7.4% of the time!

That I’ve decided now constitutes often! I believe a northbound service will depart Clitheroe shortly, bear with me while I find out about the next Preston Guild specials!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I have to say 323 interiors look a lot better in West Midlands orange than Northern blue.

Which raises the issue of "needless" rebranding of trains when they change TOCs.
Previously, TOCs would automatically rebrand after transfer (and may make other changes for fleet commonality).
Today, with DfT in charge of spend, I'm not so sure.
But then it seems under GBR we are to have "Regional" branding, so that might still mean rebranding between "Midlands" and "North" (though the 323s operate entirely in one NR Region).

 

[Grannyjoans]

I wonder how much the 769 program has cost per unit compared with buying new or even putting some more wires up.
K

It probably cost more than buying new! Unexpectedly as well, as they were originally supposed to enter service in 2018