Jamesrob637
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Not 2-car though, maybe in winter but you'd still be surprised how many have a coastal day out as long as the sun's shining, regardless of external temperatures!
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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern
- Thread starter northwichcat
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Not 2-car though, maybe in winter but you'd still be surprised how many have a coastal day out as long as the sun's shining, regardless of external temperatures!
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
It's a fine report*, but never stood a chance of implementation, just like the NR Electrification RUS of 2009 which detailed the priority of every line in the country.
Nothing happens, under BR or the privatised railway, until the DfT and Treasury sign off the funding, which they have only been prepared to do on a project-by-project basis and on the basis of much "optioneering" and descoping.
Things looked good in 2012 for an extensive and fast roll-out, but "the railway" bungled it in less than 5 years, with funding halted.
We are just beginning to get out of the last slough of despond, but it will be a long haul.
* interesting to read the summary of overseas electrification 40 years ago.
Absolutely no mention of high speed lines then being planned for France, Germany and Italy, which were of course based on building new electric lines, on which multiple-unit trains have transformed the networks in those countries (plus Spain, which didn't rate a mention in 1981).
The main comment was on locomotive capability and available electric transmission technology.
Abundant hydro-electricity and a dearth of fossil fuels are also given as reasons for their faster electrification and being "different" to the UK.
Potential Sydney-Melbourne electrification was analysed - another line still waiting to be wired.
No mention of railways in Japan, or of course China, both now with world class rail networks.
There are other issues.
It mentions APT, but no Channel Tunnel of course, and no airport links.
We get the old railway assumptions that electrification will produce a 1% annual traffic increase, and that freight will stay "broadly static" (no coal crisis then?).
North Sea oil was then the economic saviour, so we were "fuel secure".
1981 was a period of recession before the boom of the late 80s (ECML electrification), then recession/boom again in the 90s (Channel Tunnel, Heathrow Express).
Under Option V, by 2011 there would be 232 APT sets and zero HSTs! And 700-odd electric locos (similar number of diesels).
The plan was also strongly based on electric locos hauling coaches on main lines (and freight at night), much like the then WCML.
No mention of line speed increases, track upgrades or resignalling costs, just the cost of getting the wires up.
So not so fine a report, really.
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185
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One of these has just failed at Southport, looks like it had a problem near Manchester on the way up, arrived 10 late then the backworking 2K88 1315 Southport-Edge was canned.
How are these getting on for reliability?
How are these getting on for reliability?
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
From the limited information posted here they give me the impression of dual-fueled disasters.
Jamesrob637
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Seems to be one failure a day average, some days two but some days none.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
But at least you can't blame the foreigners this time.
A BREL product re-engineered in the UK.
Maybe it's the MTU (Rolls Royce) engines...
Same for the 230 saga.
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Maybe you can. They have German MAN engines. Or maybe it's the Swiss alternator.....
Grumpy Git
On Moderation
Can't even blame the "wrong kind of snow", although it has almost been cold enough!
Yes although most of those 'projects' have gone quiet. Some talk of the 350/2s having a battery bi-mode conversion when they go off lease but it is unclear if the range would allow for use on the Southport line.
Do Turbostars have bike spaces?
LOL The Irony
Established Member
How does this disqualify them? Just add them.
Speed43125
Member
Certainly the ex-Scotrail ones do
Good, that's how it happens. Recurring faults are investigated and rectified - either by repair or design modification. Running the 769s in full service might be a bit inconvenient for passengers for a while, but a well managed monitoring and review process will drive out infant mortality failures in the shortest possible time.
As 319s they had an MTIN of around 12,000 which is adequate. I recall the odd failure on the Southern years ago. I guess that most of the failures aren't the original 319 gubbins though of course the occasional door/AWS/headlight/horn fault is inevitable.
Oh dear it’s been at Bolton for 10mins now, dreaded praise something it and opps
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On the move 16 late from Bolton, next Southport service is only 8mins behind, will they canx it at Wigan
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Those ex-Scotrail 170s are 3-car and by all accounts are fine units on limited stop services, having a 100mph top speed. However, running between Manchester and Southport they would not have been able to maintain timings due to the number of station stops and their relatively slow rate of acceleration.
All that is irrelevant to some. The critical factor for them is that they wouldn't be London's cast-offs.
Not to sure what happened with 09:17 Southport-Alderley Edge yesterday but checking Realtime Trains it started from Wigan Wallgate at 10:26 +36 late when it should have left Wallgate at 09:50. For some reason it seems a unit was sent up to Wallgate from Allerton Depot at 09:11 but according to Realtime Trains that working itself should have left Allerton at 08:59.
Not sure if its connected but 07:20 Manchester Victoria-Southport was cancelled throughout due to the Train Operators Request according to Realtime Trains whatever that means.
Not sure if its connected but 07:20 Manchester Victoria-Southport was cancelled throughout due to the Train Operators Request according to Realtime Trains whatever that means.
KendalKing
Established Member
How is this going to be inconvenient for passengers?
Running well be looks of real times, 6 out today 431, 434, 448, 450, 456, 458 doing honiurs, 434 although troublesome keeps turning out, so assuming that the faults on them are not keeping them in the depot and rectified by drivers themselves perhaps
I would regard trains running 15-45 minutes late because of problems, (or moreso failures that cause units to be taken out of service), as an inconvenience to somebody who's only reason for being on the train is to get from a to b, - can't speak for some enthusiasts though.
If your only reason for wanting to get from a to b is to experience the power changeover at Bolton then it’s perfect if it takes longer than expected.I would regard trains running 15-45 minutes late because of problems, (or moreso failures that cause units to be taken out of service), as an inconvenience to somebody who's only reason for being on the train is to get from a to b, - can't speak for some enthusiasts though.
ic31420
Member
I had my first trip on these contraptions today. The unit I was on was 434 and had a travelling fitter who seemed pretty bored.
The changeover at Bolton from AC to Diesel was fine. It maybe took 30 seconds longer than the standard station stop would have done but was without hitch.
Procedure was arrive, stop, doors released, pan dropped, engines started (starters sounded weedy), saloon lights went to emergency for a few seconds after the engines started. Various buzzers and dingers cancelled and then doors closed and we departed.
I was quite surprised the engines were quieter than a 150/156, performance whilst not electric wasn't as awful as I'd expected. I've been used to 331s of late so almost everything feels sluggish. The engine speed did vary, by more than I expected, and you could also hear the turbo spool down despite engine revs staying up when the unit off loaded.
All in all got me from A to B probably better ambiance than a 156/150 certainly in the centre cars.
Are the engines electrically heated and lub oil primed? There wasn't much warm up time from start up to max power.
The changeover at Bolton from AC to Diesel was fine. It maybe took 30 seconds longer than the standard station stop would have done but was without hitch.
Procedure was arrive, stop, doors released, pan dropped, engines started (starters sounded weedy), saloon lights went to emergency for a few seconds after the engines started. Various buzzers and dingers cancelled and then doors closed and we departed.
I was quite surprised the engines were quieter than a 150/156, performance whilst not electric wasn't as awful as I'd expected. I've been used to 331s of late so almost everything feels sluggish. The engine speed did vary, by more than I expected, and you could also hear the turbo spool down despite engine revs staying up when the unit off loaded.
All in all got me from A to B probably better ambiance than a 156/150 certainly in the centre cars.
Are the engines electrically heated and lub oil primed? There wasn't much warm up time from start up to max power.
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Wyrleybart
Established Member
Not really. Diesel only tralns are reputedly banned in 19 years time. GBR need to get electrifying pronto, or else install batteries and battery charging points at Wigan and Southport. Actually, stuff a load of batteries instead of engines under some 319s, then rejig the timetable a bit. Do the Manchester-Southport trains sit on the juice rail at Southport - if so a battery319 could recharge there.
LOL The Irony
Established Member
I doubt 319s even have 10 years left in them.
I don't think so.
Southport has 6 platforms, while I don't have my track atlas handy i'm fairly sure only 1-3 are electrified. 1 and 2 can't be reached from wigan, 3 can be accessed from both the merseyrail and wigan lines, but it only seems to be booked for merseyrail trains.