East Coast: Electric v Diesel

[E&W Lucas]

Because the 91 hasn't been able to get going. Line speed only rises to 125 after Welwyn Tunnels.

 

[TGV]

Because the 91 hasn't been able to get going. Line speed only rises to 125 after Welwyn Tunnels.

I know what the reasons are - my point was that despite running at 115 round hatfield, and 125 after Woolmer (for a very short time before braking), it makes no difference compared to the acceleration and braking of the lighter units.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Time speed and distance. The distances aren't great enough for the speed differential to make any difference.

Kx - Stevenage is precisely the sort of outer suburban sprint that the 365's are built for; less so 91's or HST's!

 

[anonymous0101]

That sounds possible. A class 373 in service (not under any special performance conditions) manages 0-60mph in 1m50s. And that's with 16,200hp.

From my experience on HST's and 91's, the 91's do have the edge everywhere exept the first few hundred yards.

Eurostars are very slow accelerating compared with Class 395 Javelins. The class 395s are reckoned to be the fastest accelerating mainline trains in the country and can reach 100 mph from a stand in 90 seconds flat.

As for the Class 91/HST vs Class 365 on a short hop between Kings Cross and Stevenage - no there wouldnt be much in it as the line speeds preclude any high speed running until Welwyn - two thirds into the journey. But I would argue the ride quality and noise is far better on a 91/HST than on a 365 rattling away at top speed.

However if you are looking at KGX to Peterborough then things change. I understand that 365s are made to go slow line at some point after Stevenage to allow HSTs/91s to cruise by at 125 mph. Again i use the word cruise because at that speed they are comfortable, not shaking about like a 365 would be at its top speed of 100.
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Well, yes and no. It's all about power delivery at different speeds. Because of their lower adhesion, the Electras start very slowly (partly because of their high gearing for 140 running), but being able to put down a constant tractive effort at medium speeds means that they can catch up. HSTs have greater adhesion, so they are able to start quicker, but the tractive effort tails off at mid-range speeds. Higher up, the ability to put down 6,300 hp rather than 4,500 benefits the Electras, but that tails off a bit for electrics, so top-end acceleration is about the same.

For illustration, speeds King's Cross-Finsbury Park:
Networker (fastest)
313/321/317 (about the same)
HST (a touch slower)
Electra (slowest)

My personal record from Helpston Box to Stoke Box (standing start from Peterborough) is 8 mins 59, behind 91104. Fastest HST was 9 mins 24, can't remember which power cars but they were both MTUs.

As I said HSTs only have around 3600 at rail whereas the 91s have over 6000. An HST on level ground takes around 4 minutes to get to 100 mph with 125 not being reached until 10 minutes have elapsed. A class 91 set reaches 125 mph in 5 minutes. So there is a difference. In terms of actual advantage timewise - very little but it is generally accepted that performance from electrics unit is more consistent than diesels. Reliability of the electrics is higher for a start. There was a good reason for electrifying the East Coast Main line!

 

[LE Greys]

Eurostars are very slow accelerating compared with Class 395 Javelins. The class 395s are reckoned to be the fastest accelerating mainline trains in the country and can reach 100 mph from a stand in 90 seconds flat.

I'd agree with you there. Off the mark, they're like Jubilee Line stock, but it keeps going all the way up to 100-plus. Distributed traction, 2X25kV power supply and horsepower to spare go a very long way.

As I said HSTs only have around 3600 at rail whereas the 91s have over 6000. An HST on level ground takes around 4 minutes to get to 100 mph with 125 not being reached until 10 minutes have elapsed. A class 91 set reaches 125 mph in 5 minutes. So there is a difference. In terms of actual advantage timewise - very little but it is generally accepted that performance from electrics unit is more consistent than diesels. Reliability of the electrics is higher for a start. There was a good reason for electrifying the East Coast Main line!

And the Midland Main Line and the Great Western Main Line (if anyone from the DfT is reading this.

Just for the sake of comparison, anyone have any idea how quickly the APT-E or the gas turbine TGV-prototype could accelerate compared with their electric derivatives?

 

[90019]

Distributed traction, 2X25kV power supply and horsepower to spare go a very long way.

How'd you get that?

 

[notadriver]

I'd agree with you there. Off the mark, they're like Jubilee Line stock, but it keeps going all the way up to 100-plus. Distributed traction, 2X25kV power supply and horsepower to spare go a very long way.



And the Midland Main Line and the Great Western Main Line (if anyone from the DfT is reading this.

Just for the sake of comparison, anyone have any idea how quickly the APT-E or the gas turbine TGV-prototype could accelerate compared with their electric derivatives?

The class 222s which once ran on the ECML were the quickest on the line - far superior to a 91 set, never mind a HST.

 

[LE Greys]

How'd you get that?

The return cable is electrified with 25kV to the opposite polarity as the main contact wire. This effectively doubles the voltage without doubling it. Don't ask me how it works, but that's the impression I got from reading about it.

 

[ainsworth74]

The class 222s which once ran on the ECML were the quickest on the line

They still do every weekend between Doncaster and York

 

[CallySleeperKid]

The staff on the "Highland" section of the Chieftan are fantastic, and really make an effort.

Travelling first from a smaller station, I've been greeted by name on boarding by first class host, shown to my seat, and had a coffee poured with biscuits before I even had a chance to sit down.

Thats a nice touch you don't see very often, make a very good impression.

We have done the Highland Mainline quite a few times but this will be the first time on the Chieftain, I am liking hearing reports of friendly staff and plenty of tea, coffee etc....

Is it usually busy in first class on a Friday southbound? We are travelling from Inverness right down to London so hoping its not too busy, but saying that even when we have travelled in busy first class coaches its not been full of kids and people shouting and swearing, just my second pet hate of tip tapping on laptops!

Anyway, looking forward to it!

 

[TGV]

Eurostars are very slow accelerating compared with Class 395 Javelins. The class 395s are reckoned to be the fastest accelerating mainline trains in the country and can reach 100 mph from a stand in 90 seconds flat.

As for the Class 91/HST vs Class 365 on a short hop between Kings Cross and Stevenage - no there wouldnt be much in it as the line speeds preclude any high speed running until Welwyn - two thirds into the journey. But I would argue the ride quality and noise is far better on a 91/HST than on a 365 rattling away at top speed.

However if you are looking at KGX to Peterborough then things change. I understand that 365s are made to go slow line at some point after Stevenage to allow HSTs/91s to cruise by at 125 mph. Again i use the word cruise because at that speed they are comfortable, not shaking about like a 365 would be at its top speed of 100.

There are several 365 diagrams that use the fast line all the way to either St Neots or Huntingdon. 1640 being one of them. But it doesn't stop at Stevenage and is only passed by a Grand Central HST usually aroudn Huntingdon (where the 365 must use the slow line to stop).

365 - sure, they're obviously noisier than loco hauled stock, but they are far from rattly! Compared to some stock running round they're pretty good. Made noisier because the windows are often left open. Lack of air con is their only main flaw in my opinion. No class 365 diagram is non-stop on the fast line to PBO unlike the 91/43's. Would be interesting to see the time difference though. Probably only 5 or 6 minutes.

As for 373 vs 395 - yes obviously the big 373's are nowhere near as lively off the mark, but what's amazing is their progress from 150mph upwards. The North of London's are notably quicker than the 3 Cap sets up to 300km/h. Those extra 4 trailers make a big difference. Drivers have commented how much quicker the NoL's are. Different driving style on HS1.

Oh and the 373's don't get all shaky in the tunnels....!

 

[Failed Unit]

Few things that spring to mind on this thread. Were the HSTs faster pre MTU refurb? I may have missed a power v wieght on the emus. The voyagers are also faster between darlington and York. But how would the compare to a 91 + 7 for example.

 

[LE Greys]

There are several 365 diagrams that use the fast line all the way to either St Neots or Huntingdon. 1640 being one of them. But it doesn't stop at Stevenage and is only passed by a Grand Central HST usually aroudn Huntingdon (where the 365 must use the slow line to stop).

365 - sure, they're obviously noisier than loco hauled stock, but they are far from rattly! Compared to some stock running round they're pretty good. Made noisier because the windows are often left open. Lack of air con is their only main flaw in my opinion. No class 365 diagram is non-stop on the fast line to PBO unlike the 91/43's. Would be interesting to see the time difference though. Probably only 5 or 6 minutes.

I actually quite like the ventilation on 365s. Those air-blowers on the luggage racks would be a very good feature on other stock, especially the Desiros. First thing I do whenever I sit down is turn them on full-blast and point them in my direction (same with coaches and aircraft). The only real problem with 365s IMO is the toilets, which are always in a horrible condition, but that's probably more a maintenance issue.

And yes, they are quite nippy out of stations, and accelerating from signal checks.

As for 373 vs 395 - yes obviously the big 373's are nowhere near as lively off the mark, but what's amazing is their progress from 150mph upwards. The North of London's are notably quicker than the 3 Cap sets up to 300km/h. Those extra 4 trailers make a big difference. Drivers have commented how much quicker the NoL's are. Different driving style on HS1.

Oh and the 373's don't get all shaky in the tunnels....!

When you said "3-Cap", you got me thinking of the Class 413 (4-CAP). macks forehead:

 

[TGV]

When you said "3-Cap", you got me thinking of the Class 413 (4-CAP). macks forehead:

*googles class 413...*

Yeah - I can see your confusion. 300km/h in one of those would be a challenge!

You're right - the ventilation on 365's is actually pretty good, but in the heatwave of 2003 and the very hot summers of 2005 and 2006, they were REALLY hot when sat still and the ventilation wasn't enough. At least you could open the windows though. Mk4 passengers couldn't on several occasions when trains have failed and ended up having to break the windows or boil.

Yup - you can't knock those 365's really. They really are excellent units. Like you say, the condition of the toilets is a maintenance issue and should be brought to the attention of FCC by more passengers. They're not the worst I've seen though.

 

[jopsuk]

The loos on the 365s are rather more pleasant generally than on NXEA's 317s- several of which lack any way to operate the taps on the sinks.

 

[anonymous0101]

*googles class 413...*

Yeah - I can see your confusion. 300km/h in one of those would be a challenge!

You're right - the ventilation on 365's is actually pretty good, but in the heatwave of 2003 and the very hot summers of 2005 and 2006, they were REALLY hot when sat still and the ventilation wasn't enough. At least you could open the windows though. Mk4 passengers couldn't on several occasions when trains have failed and ended up having to break the windows or boil.

Yup - you can't knock those 365's really. They really are excellent units. Like you say, the condition of the toilets is a maintenance issue and should be brought to the attention of FCC by more passengers. They're not the worst I've seen though.

TGV you are a rolling stock engineer right? Is that a fitter? Do you look after the 365s? I guess I am biased as I used to work with 465/9s which I thought are similar to the 365s. And at their top speed of 75 - you know about it. They are also 20 years old now like the 365s. Surely the ambience of a newer unit like a 350 or 360 is far superior.

 

[LE Greys]

TGV you are a rolling stock engineer right? Is that a fitter? Do you look after the 365s? I guess I am biased as I used to work with 465/9s which I thought are similar to the 365s. And at their top speed of 75 - you know about it. They are also 20 years old now like the 365s. Surely the ambience of a newer unit like a 350 or 360 is far superior.

I obviously can't speak for him, but I'm probably biased myself. The 365s work my local line, they were made in the UK and I don't like Desiros because I think they have a stifling interior with no air movement and plank-hard seats. Still, they did replace the wonderful 442s on the line I used to use to go home from college, so that probably put me off them for a start. If I ever go down south, I try to travel via Reading because I'd rather go by Voyager (and that's saying something hock: ). Not had much experience of 350s and 360s, but I'd imagine they're pretty much the same as 450s.

 

[TGV]

TGV you are a rolling stock engineer right? Is that a fitter? Do you look after the 365s? I guess I am biased as I used to work with 465/9s which I thought are similar to the 365s. And at their top speed of 75 - you know about it. They are also 20 years old now like the 365s. Surely the ambience of a newer unit like a 350 or 360 is far superior.

I am a rolling stock engineer, but not a fitter. I'm a mechanical engineer. I don't work with 365's - but similar to L E Greys says, I just use them often. The trains I work with are a bit faster with a little more power... Profile pic might help!

 

[amcluesent]

The HST carriages (slam door) are definitely more rickety, it's not unusual when trains pass as full speed for the 'bounce' to spill coffee from cups as the tables flex.

Also the tiny 1st class section after the HST buffet isn't very nice, although back in the day GNER used to keep this space for full 1st class tickets so families on weekend 1st upgrades couldn't get in and let the kiddies run amok. Nowadays, these seats seem to be the preserve of off shift FCC/EC train crew to lark about.

The temperature control in HST is often wayward when there's a gale blowing into the vestibules from a door window being left open. The modern carriage sets are at least wind proof.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

[That's an old thread you've found there, but I agree that's its still very much a 'live' topic!
Though I can't see why its here, in the INFRASTRUCTURE forum, rather than ROLLING STOCK.]

The HST carriages (slam door) are definitely more rickety, it's not unusual when trains pass as full speed for the 'bounce' to spill coffee from cups as the tables flex.

Yes, and restaurant staff carrying several hot dishes from kitchen to table are acutely aware of the differences (between the suspension on HST and electric 225 stock) even if the passengers are not!

The temperature control in HST is often wayward when there's a gale blowing into the vestibules from a door window being left open. The modern carriage sets are at least wind proof.

One thing that makes me smile at stations where a long HST pauses for a few momments is when an alighting passenger (having opened the window in order to reach the door handle) steps down and smugly feels that they're doing 'the right thing' by slamming the door behind them. So often, the platform dispatch staff will (time permitting) have to walk down to that coach, open the door, close the window, then slam the door shut again.

Personally, I really feel very comfortable in HSTs, but it would help if the door mechanisms were upgraded - particularly in these long, dark and cold winter months!
Still, there's nothing to prevent any passenger from walking up to the vestibule themselves to push the windows closed again - I often do, especially at this chilly time of year on those long ECML stretches between stations.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

[That's an old thread you've found there, but I agree that's its still very much a 'live' topic!
Though I can't see why its here, in the INFRASTRUCTURE forum, rather than ROLLING STOCK.]Yes, and restaurant staff carrying several hot dishes from kitchen to table are acutely aware of the differences (between the suspension on HST and electric 225 stock) even if the passengers are not!

One thing that makes me smile at stations where a long HST pauses for a few momments is when an alighting passenger (having opened the window in order to reach the door handle) steps down and smugly feels that they're doing 'the right thing' by slamming the door behind them. So often, the platform dispatch staff will (time permitting) have to walk down to that coach, open the door, close the window, then slam the door shut again.

Personally, I really feel very comfortable in HSTs, but it would help if the door mechanisms were upgraded - particularly in these long, dark and cold winter months!
Still, there's nothing to prevent any passenger from walking up to the vestibule themselves to push the windows closed again - I often do, especially at this chilly time of year on those long ECML stretches between stations.[/QUOTE]

Long long time ago when I was a Senior Conductor the announcement for the next station stop would be finished with, "please close the window and door after you have alighted from the train".

 

[At_traction]

Distributed traction, 2X25kV power supply and horsepower to spare go a very long way.
[...]
The return cable is electrified with 25kV to the opposite polarity as the main contact wire. This effectively doubles the voltage without doubling it. Don't ask me how it works, but that's the impression I got from reading about it.

There just might be some truly knowledgeable people around here , but AFAIK, the 2x25 kV system uses the reverse polarity return wire (or rather, feeder wire, the term return wire as such is used in the older 25 kV system) merely to return the current to the feeder station.

The main catenary wire from the "power" station delivers the juice to the section between two transformers that the train is occupying at the moment (5 mi long or something like that), then the power is fed to the pantograph from two directions along the wire, front and behind. That being possible due to the juice passing through the train to the return rail and then divided 50/50 towards the front and behind, to the aforementioned transformers, partly to be again fed to the pantograph from two directions, partly to the feeder wire to be returned to the power station.

This all indeed does double the voltage delivered along the wire system due to reverse polarity, but due to the coil earthing at the power station, in effect the voltage at the pantograph remains the 25 kV. The advantage of using a doubled voltage system is that it allows the doubling of power feeding station distances as the current can be halved to deliver the same electric power (P=U*I).

So, AFAIK, as such no advantage to the power delivery if the power is kept at the same level due to halved current. Wiser men may elaborate.

Just for the sake of comparison, anyone have any idea how quickly the APT-E or the gas turbine TGV-prototype could accelerate compared with their electric derivatives?

Well:
The APT-E, eight traction turbines (plus two used as APUs) rated at 300 hp (later 330) -> 2650-ish hp.
The APT-P, one power car of 4000-ish hp, two such powercars used for a full train.

But whereas the E test unit consisted of only two cars along with two powercars, the P consisted (or was meant to consist ) of 14 cars in all, including two powercars for 8000 hp , the difference may be a bit evened out.

The class 222s which once ran on the ECML were the quickest on the line - far superior to a 91 set, never mind a HST.

But with only four cars as compared to the 1+10 for an IC225... And all that plastic.

 

[tbtc]

But with only four cars as compared to the 1+10 for an IC225... And all that plastic.

I've never seen a four car 222 on the ECML - its always seven cars on the York trips I've seen

 

[Oswyntail]

I've never seen a four car 222 on the ECML - its always seven cars on the York trips I've seen

Hull Trains 222s, I presume. Do EMT 222s go to York?

 

[mumrar]

I've never seen a four car 222 on the ECML - its always seven cars on the York trips I've seen

I may be adding to the confusion, but the 4-cars were Hull Trains, whereas the 7-cars you mention are EMT (aren't they?)

 

[transportphoto]

Hull Trains 222s, I presume. Do EMT 222s go to York?

Yep they do - AFAIAA its summer months only as part of their Scarborough service but I may be wrong.

 

[ainsworth74]

Four car 222s were used by Hull Trains before they took on board the 180s. EMT run services to York on weekends and these run through to Scarborough during the summer.

 

[MCR247]

Yep they do - AFAIAA its summer months only as part of their Scarborough service but I may be wrong.

No, a 222 stables at York for most of the day every Sunday, bit just extends to Scarborough summer only

 

[tbtc]

I may be adding to the confusion, but the 4-cars were Hull Trains, whereas the 7-cars you mention are EMT (aren't they?)

Yes, got ya - I was forgetting HT used to run some of them on the ECML too (in between the 170s and 180s)

 

[Failed Unit]

I have seen both 5 and 7 car MML sets at York. However you would expect them to be quicker of the blocks than a 91 or IC125, they have a 750hp engine per car. If you look at the hp per tonne the Voyagers and Meridians are a lot higher. The Voyagers have better point to point timings than the East Coast services on many sections.