East Coast: Electric v Diesel

[bradders1983]

Hi all.

Currently in Edinburgh at the moment and got up here on an electric set (after missing my connection in Doncaster and having to get to Darlington on XC to pick up the next Edinburgh train!)

However it turns out on the way back I am catching the Aberdeen - London KX service, which will be a diesel set (as no electrifcation north of Edinburgh).

A few questions:

- which diesel sets do East Coast use? Is it similar to the old slam door sets used by XC and EMT? And if so are they the same, drab, umcomfy interior?
- is there a major difference in speed between the two sets, if at all?

Ta.

 

[imagination]

They certainly are not drab and uncomfy.
And there is no noticeable speed difference - indeed the Northern Lights and Highland Chieftain are among the fastest trains from Edinburgh to London - the latter being just 1 minute slower than the fastest train of the day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which train are you getting specifically though?
The 10:30 from Edinburgh takes 4 hours 40
The 12:30 Northern Lights takes 4 hours 27
The 17:30 from Edinburgh takes 4 hours 50

Fastest train of the day is 4 hours 19 mins, highland chieftain (inverness diesel) is 4 hours 20.

 

[43106]

I recently got a copy of the East Coast Working Timetable, and I did a comparison between an HST and a 91 + 82. In general, 91s are SLIGHTLY quicker than HSTs, but not by much. HSTs have a slightly better accelleration than 91s and are fractionally quicker when there are bends. However, 91s are quicker in a straight line.

 

[ainsworth74]

- which diesel sets do East Coast use? Is it similar to the old slam door sets used by XC and EMT? And if so are they the same, drab, umcomfy interior?

They use Intercity 125s also know as HSTs. The interiors are exactly the same as the electric IC225s.

 

[bradders1983]

They certainly are not drab and uncomfy.
And there is no noticeable speed difference - indeed the Northern Lights and Highland Chieftain are among the fastest trains from Edinburgh to London - the latter being just 1 minute slower than the fastest train of the day!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Which train are you getting specifically though?
The 10:30 from Edinburgh takes 4 hours 40
The 12:30 Northern Lights takes 4 hours 27
The 17:30 from Edinburgh takes 4 hours 50

Fastest train of the day is 4 hours 19 mins, highland chieftain (inverness diesel) is 4 hours 20.

I'm on the 1730 but only as far as Doncaster. Thank god.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think EC's stock (whether HSTs or 225s) are really nice, well, better than the stuff on the EC. I'd love to have a proper run KGX-EDB on one...

 

[imagination]

I'm on the 1730 but only as far as Doncaster. Thank god.

That's better than if you were getting the Northern Lights then as that doesn't stop at Doncaster

 

[jopsuk]

The HST services tend to have less stops south of Edinburgh/once they join the ECML (Hull etc) don't they? The 225s don't need to allow as much time at minor stations for closing the doors.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Im doing the Highland Chieftain from Inverness to Kings Cross in December and can't wait!

I don't think I have travelled on East Coast before, definitely not since the GNER days anyway. Doing Leeds to London on Electric, and the Chieftain, obviously, on a HST.

 

[Tomnick]

...and are fractionally quicker when there are bends. However, 91s are quicker in a straight line.

There's no difference in permitted speeds for HSTs and 91+MkIVs. I wouldn't have thought that curves would bring out a noticeable difference in performance between the two either; certainly not sufficient to make it obvious in the WTT (especially considering the differences between individual members of the same class).

 

[Andrew Nelson]

That's better than if you were getting the Northern Lights then as that doesn't stop at Doncaster

Or the Highland Chieftain....

 

[route:oxford]

Or the Highland Chieftain....

Well, the Highland Chieftan does call at Doncaster on a Sunday...

 

[notadriver]

I recently got a copy of the East Coast Working Timetable, and I did a comparison between an HST and a 91 + 82. In general, 91s are SLIGHTLY quicker than HSTs, but not by much. HSTs have a slightly better accelleration than 91s and are fractionally quicker when there are bends. However, 91s are quicker in a straight line.

Sorry that is nonsense. Class 91s are superior to HSTs both in terms of acceleration (125 mph in ~ 5 mins from a standing start. The HST takes twice that. Class 91s also far superior uphills. Timetables are 'padded' out so services have room to make up lost time.

 

[lm321412]

I'm on the 1730 but only as far as Doncaster. Thank god.

Clearly this passenger hasn't used anything such as a "Pacer" yet then if he thinks the HST interiors are bad!

 

[route:oxford]

Sorry that is nonsense. Class 91s are superior to HSTs both in terms of acceleration (125 mph in ~ 5 mins from a standing start. The HST takes twice that. Class 91s also far superior uphills. Timetables are 'padded' out so services have room to make up lost time.

Would they have been better still if the traction had been distributed between both the loco and the DVT (just one pantograph and a train length power-bus)?

 

[sprinterguy]

Would they have been better still if the traction had been distributed between both the loco and the DVT (just one pantograph and a train length power-bus)?

Yes I reckon so, distributed power gives better adhesion from having a bigger surface area between the wheel and rail to put the power down.

I don't know what the views of East Coast drivers' are on this matter, but from a lineside perspective the HSTs seem much more surefooted when starting a train. Class 91s, with half the powered axles of two HST powercars, seem to have a much greater propensity to slip when getting underway on an uphill slope. I've heard Durham station mentioned as one such example of this. Whilst a 91 has just over 6000hp against the 4500hp of a pair of HST Powercars, the starting adhesion is poor. I'm sure a 91 will trounce an HST everytime once underway though.

 

[jopsuk]

Remember that when the 91+Mrk4 was designed, distributed power for High Speed was pretty rare, certainly in Europe. Also, the set as a whole was in part a revival of the ATP-S design. With tilting planned to be retrofitted to the carriages, the power car would have been non-tilting- avoiding the issue of having tilting pantographs.

it is very unlikely that anyone, anywhere, will design "loco hauled" (or seperate power car) high speed trains again. Even the Austrian Railjet was designed purely because of an excess of fast locos sitting around.

 

[142094]

Im doing the Highland Chieftain from Inverness to Kings Cross in December and can't wait!

Probably one of the best trips I've ever made - 1st class for £30 and a great journey and food.

 

[CallySleeperKid]

Probably one of the best trips I've ever made - 1st class for £30 and a great journey and food.

Yeah were in first class, never used first class with East Coast before so looking forward to what we might get.

 

[notadriver]

Yes I reckon so, distributed power gives better adhesion from having a bigger surface area between the wheel and rail to put the power down.

I don't know what the views of East Coast drivers' are on this matter, but from a lineside perspective the HSTs seem much more surefooted when starting a train. Class 91s, with half the powered axles of two HST powercars, seem to have a much greater propensity to slip when getting underway on an uphill slope. I've heard Durham station mentioned as one such example of this. Whilst a 91 has just over 6000hp against the 4500hp of a pair of HST Powercars, the starting adhesion is poor. I'm sure a 91 will trounce an HST everytime once underway though.

A Pendolino has distributed traction as does the Javelin and both these units can reach 100 mph from a stand in around 2 minutes. The HSTs have 4500 engine horsepower but only around 3600 is produced at rail.

 

[87031]

Yeah were in first class, never used first class with East Coast before so looking forward to what we might get.

East coast do good prices on Advance 1st trickets but unfortunately the meals are not free, despite that they are round very frequently with the usual free Tea, Coffee, Water Juice Biscuits etc all served in proper cups as well. Its great bombing down the Highland Mainline on A HST though

 

[LE Greys]

Sorry that is nonsense. Class 91s are superior to HSTs both in terms of acceleration (125 mph in ~ 5 mins from a standing start. The HST takes twice that. Class 91s also far superior uphills. Timetables are 'padded' out so services have room to make up lost time.

Well, yes and no. It's all about power delivery at different speeds. Because of their lower adhesion, the Electras start very slowly (partly because of their high gearing for 140 running), but being able to put down a constant tractive effort at medium speeds means that they can catch up. HSTs have greater adhesion, so they are able to start quicker, but the tractive effort tails off at mid-range speeds. Higher up, the ability to put down 6,300 hp rather than 4,500 benefits the Electras, but that tails off a bit for electrics, so top-end acceleration is about the same.

For illustration, speeds King's Cross-Finsbury Park:
Networker (fastest)
313/321/317 (about the same)
HST (a touch slower)
Electra (slowest)

My personal record from Helpston Box to Stoke Box (standing start from Peterborough) is 8 mins 59, behind 91104. Fastest HST was 9 mins 24, can't remember which power cars but they were both MTUs.

 

[TGV]

A Pendolino has distributed traction as does the Javelin and both these units can reach 100 mph from a stand in around 2 minutes. The HSTs have 4500 engine horsepower but only around 3600 is produced at rail.

That sounds possible. A class 373 in service (not under any special performance conditions) manages 0-60mph in 1m50s. And that's with 16,200hp.

From my experience on HST's and 91's, the 91's do have the edge everywhere exept the first few hundred yards.

 

[route:oxford]

Probably one of the best trips I've ever made - 1st class for £30 and a great journey and food.

The staff on the "Highland" section of the Chieftan are fantastic, and really make an effort.

Travelling first from a smaller station, I've been greeted by name on boarding by first class host, shown to my seat, and had a coffee poured with biscuits before I even had a chance to sit down.

 

[TGV]

Well, yes and no. It's all about power delivery at different speeds. Because of their lower adhesion, the Electras start very slowly (partly because of their high gearing for 140 running), but being able to put down a constant tractive effort at medium speeds means that they can catch up. HSTs have greater adhesion, so they are able to start quicker, but the tractive effort tails off at mid-range speeds. Higher up, the ability to put down 6,300 hp rather than 4,500 benefits the Electras, but that tails off a bit for electrics, so top-end acceleration is about the same.

For illustration, speeds King's Cross-Finsbury Park:
Networker (fastest)
313/321/317 (about the same)
HST (a touch slower)
Electra (slowest)

My personal record from Helpston Box to Stoke Box (standing start from Peterborough) is 8 mins 59, behind 91104. Fastest HST was 9 mins 24, can't remember which power cars but they were both MTUs.

I agree - the 365's are the fastest things out of KGX by a mile. Literally. Even compared to the 317's to be honest which have less power AND fewer powered axles than the 365's. I get 365, 317, HST AND 91's to PBO.

Also - check the timetables - to illustrate the point (and difference in braking too), the best timetabled journey from KGX to Stevenage for a class 91 is 19 minutes. Any guesses for a class 365's best?

18!

 

[E&W Lucas]

Don't read too much into timetables.

HST's & Mk IV's are routinely exchanged in service. Over a 3+ hour journey, the performance differences are insignificant, and the regulating decisions taken by signallers will have far more effect on timekeeping.

 

[TGV]

Don't read too much into timetables.

HST's & Mk IV's are routinely exchanged in service. Over a 3+ hour journey, the performance differences are insignificant, and the regulating decisions taken by signallers will have far more effect on timekeeping.

I'm not. I use that route every day on all types of traction. Trust me - the 365's are like bullet out a rifle all the way past Potters Bar before you kinda JUST notice that the 43/91's are at last going faster, but it's way too late to make the difference up. Especially with the braking of the 365s. The difference is easily notable.

 

[Aictos]

mmm, talking of non stop runs between Stevenage and Kings Cross lets take two very similarly timed services:

1A15
Harrogate to Kings Cross
Departs Stevenage 0957
Arrives Kings Cross 1025

This service is given 28 mins to cover the route between Stevenage and Kings Cross from a stop at Stevenage.

1P56
Peterborough to Kings Cross
Departs Stevenage 0956
Arrives Kings Cross 1022

This service is given 26 mins to cover the route between Stevenage and Kings Cross from a stop at Stevenage.

So not that much of a difference if you get the HST or Class 365 because of the amount of padding in the timetables.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I'm not. I use that route every day on all types of traction. Trust me - the 365's are like bullet out a rifle all the way past Potters Bar before you kinda JUST notice that the 43/91's are at last going faster, but it's way too late to make the difference up. Especially with the braking of the 365s. The difference is easily notable.

Units are quicker off the mark; they're lower geared, so no revelation there, but
don't forget -

Line speed.
Congestion, esp around Welwyn
More gentle braking expected on intercity services, where poss.

Running time Stevenage - KX is about 18 mins for an inter city service. The rest is timetable padding.

 

[TGV]

Units are quicker off the mark; they're lower geared, so no revelation there, but
don't forget -

Line speed.
Congestion, esp around Welwyn
More gentle braking expected on intercity services, where poss.

Running time Stevenage - KX is about 18 mins for an inter city service. The rest is timetable padding.

OK - nevermind the timetable for a minute. I'm simply talking the real time it takes from KGX platform to Stevenage. The bottom line is there's as good as nowt in it, between a 365 and a 91.