TPE Class 185s - Current Status and Future Use?

[alexl92]

Hi,
Having previously been a regular Leeds - Huddersfield train commuter in the days when 185s and 170s made up the entirety of TPE's fleet, I've now lost track a little of the current status of their fleet.

When TPE ordered their new NOVA 1, 2 and 3 fleets there was talk that the 185s, or at least some of them, would be transferred to Northern, but I'm assuming this hasn't happened as I see 185s through Leeds fairly regularly.

Do TPE still have the full fleet of 51 Class 185s? Are they keeping them indefinitely or is there still a plan to transfer them elsewhere?

Finally, I seem to remember that previously TPE tried to keep 185s off Hull - Manchester services as they were subject to a severe speed restriction somewhere (maybe near Selby?), which didn't affect the 170s. Does this still apply?

Thanks!

 

[_toommm_]

They still use all the 51 185s. Most services running with the 185s are doubled up, running as six cars. There was talk of them going off lease, with many suggestions as to where they were going to go I.e. Ireland, Northern, replacement for Southern 171s etc., but nothing confirmed.

 

[supervc-10]

Some are looking a little tired too, despite the recent refurbishment. The unit I was on (didn't get the number) on Saturday evening from Doncaster to Manchester, the plastic wall panelling was scuffed and dirty and the fabric on the seats was of questionable cleanliness. Comfy as always though!

There are varying rumours around the future of the fleet. The 'south' line, from Manchester to Cleethorpes via Sheffield, is supposedly staying 185. The 'north' route (via Leeds) is a mix of traction, with everything but the 397s being used on different destinations. There's talk of the EMR Norwich-Liverpool route being split at Nottingham, with TPE taking the western half, but I don't know if that's just waffle on forums or an actual possibility. Would be a good use for the remaining 185s though.

Of course it all depends on what happens with Covid and passenger numbers!

 

[Failed Unit]

Nottingham- Liverpool is staying with EMR. traction staying with 158 (for now). Longer term who knows. 185 remains possible but then 222s make you rumours as well.

 

[supervc-10]

TBH I feel like the 222s natural home is with XC- but that's a whole other thread!

 

[swt_passenger]

There's talk of the EMR Norwich-Liverpool route being split at Nottingham, with TPE taking the western half, but I don't know if that's just waffle on forums or an actual possibility. Would be a good use for the remaining 185s though.

Although as just posted by @Failed Unit it is no longer happening, it was never just waffle on forums, it was a well documented DfT proposal.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Finally, I seem to remember that previously TPE tried to keep 185s off Hull - Manchester services as they were subject to a severe speed restriction somewhere (maybe near Selby?), which didn't affect the 170s. Does this still apply?

When TPE had the 9 170s, they were usually kept on South Pennine and Hull services, as they weren't subject to the speed restrictions that 185s are (Selby Swing Bridge springs to mind, but could be mistaken).
Once the 170s went, 185s were the only option... and it was proven that with their extra power and acceleration they could easily make up for the penalties of lower speeds in certain locations.

If/when the surplus units are released from TPE, Northern seems to be the most-suggested destination for them, but their high running costs (fuel and track access charges) would work against that.

 

[ainsworth74]

Finally, I seem to remember that previously TPE tried to keep 185s off Hull - Manchester services as they were subject to a severe speed restriction somewhere (maybe near Selby?), which didn't affect the 170s. Does this still apply?

When TPE had the 9 170s, they were usually kept on South Pennine and Hull services, as they weren't subject to the speed restrictions that 185s are (Selby Swing Bridge springs to mind, but could be mistaken).
Once the 170s went, 185s were the only option... and it was proven that with their extra power and acceleration they could easily make up for the penalties of lower speeds in certain locations.

There are Sprinter differentials east of Selby which 185s can't use. But there was never really an issue and both 170s and 185s were given the same timings when both fleets coexisted as the 185s able to keep to time even with a lower top speed in some areas. It's one of those things that I think got blown up into 'received wisdom' that there was some significant problem with using 185s on Hull services which never actually existed. Indeed even when 170s ruled the roost there were plenty of diagrammed 185 moves out there.

 

[Mollman]

Hi,
Having previously been a regular Leeds - Huddersfield train commuter in the days when 185s and 170s made up the entirety of TPE's fleet, I've now lost track a little of the current status of their fleet.

When TPE ordered their new NOVA 1, 2 and 3 fleets there was talk that the 185s, or at least some of them, would be transferred to Northern, but I'm assuming this hasn't happened as I see 185s through Leeds fairly regularly.

Do TPE still have the full fleet of 51 Class 185s? Are they keeping them indefinitely or is there still a plan to transfer them elsewhere?

Finally, I seem to remember that previously TPE tried to keep 185s off Hull - Manchester services as they were subject to a severe speed restriction somewhere (maybe near Selby?), which didn't affect the 170s. Does this still apply?

Thanks!

Around half the fleet is due to be retained by TPE for Hull and Cleethorpes services, the Huddersfield stoppers (unless they get transfered back to Northern) and one Redcar diagramme - mostly as pairs.

Further discussion in this older thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/class-185s-off-lease.212301/

 

[adrock1976]

When TPE had the 9 170s, they were usually kept on South Pennine and Hull services, as they weren't subject to the speed restrictions that 185s are (Selby Swing Bridge springs to mind, but could be mistaken).
Once the 170s went, 185s were the only option... and it was proven that with their extra power and acceleration they could easily make up for the penalties of lower speeds in certain locations.

If/when the surplus units are released from TPE, Northern seems to be the most-suggested destination for them, but their high running costs (fuel and track access charges) would work against that.

Without me delving too deeply into speculation, should if Northern choose to have some 185s, they could easily operate on the Windermere shuttle and Lancaster - Barrow as they have previously done so before.

Blackpool North - York via Hebden Bridge also, but I am unsure if they have ever ran that way before.

 

[Doomotron]

As interesting as it would be to see them used by Southern, I don't think it would be realistic. Ireland is even less likely...

 

[_toommm_]

As interesting as it would be to see them used by Southern, I don't think it would be realistic. Ireland is even less likely...

They were the rumours at the time when TPE was starting to get its Novas in full swing believe it or not.

 

[Fokx]

All 51 are retained by TPE until further notice. Depending on what happens with the south route, 15 are expected to leave eventually, with TPE retaining 36 for:

- Manchester Pic to Hull
- Manchester Pic to Huddersfield
- Leeds to Huddersfield
- Manchester Airport to Redcar*
- Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes
- Spares for all routes except Anglo-Scottish services

Factors that might require these numbers to change are:

- Possible extension of Huddersfield to Manchester to extend to Wakefield Kirkgate
- Possible extension of Cleethorpes service to Liverpool
- TPRU Diversions

Until then nobody knows!

 

[Bletchleyite]

They were the rumours at the time when TPE was starting to get its Novas in full swing believe it or not.

Ireland are after units, I believe, and the tender allows for UK units which can be rebogied (as the loading gauge fits). Don't know where they got to with it with COVID in the way, though.

 

[D2007wsm]

Send them to GWR to use on the Portsmouth services. This would free up Turbos to strengthen services around Bristol and Exeter

 

[PHILIPE]

Send them to GWR to use on the Portsmouth services. This would free up Turbos to strengthen services around Bristol and Exeter

Even if they could be gauged you would need 2 for capacity putting them overlength for some platforms

 

[317 forever]

Nottingham- Liverpool is staying with EMR. traction staying with 158 (for now). Longer term who knows. 185 remains possible but then 222s make you rumours as well.

Given that 185s are already familiar between Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester & Sheffield, they seem ideal replacements for 158s on this service - assuming there are no problems preventing them from continuing to Nottingham.

 

[Failed Unit]

Given that 185s are already familiar between Liverpool, Warrington, Manchester & Sheffield, they seem ideal replacements for 158s on this service - assuming there are no problems preventing them from continuing to Nottingham.

Hopefully the 158s stay. Better trains.

 

[317 forever]

Hopefully the 158s stay. Better trains.

The 158s are usually good trains to ride. It's just that as the EMR franchise had specified more modern trains prior to the announcement they were retaining the Liverpool service they seem likely to be replaced subject to availability of suitable replacements.

 

[Aictos]

Blackpool North - York via Hebden Bridge also, but I am unsure if they have ever ran that way before.

Considering the gradients that they have to climb crossing the Pennines on that route, I would more then welcome them on that route.

 

[Energy]

This is assuming the 185s leave TPE, given the problems with the Nova 3s I can see all of them staying.

 

[JonathanH]

This is assuming the 185s leave TPE, given the problems with the Nova 3s I can see all of them staying.

...assuming that the DfT underwrites the cost. Previous postings do seem there is a way out on the 68+Mk5 lease at the original franchise change date which could be used to reduce the size of that fleet (even if it can't be eliminated).

 

[Failed Unit]

...assuming that the DfT underwrites the cost. Previous postings do seem there is a way out on the 68+Mk5 lease at the original franchise change date which could be used to reduce the size of that fleet (even if it can't be eliminated).

You would hope the contract with the ROSCO would have certain criteria that they could terminate the lease because they are not fit for purpose. Likewise you would hope the ROSCO could reject them from CAF.

 

[Fokx]

You would hope the contract with the ROSCO would have certain criteria that they could terminate the lease because they are not fit for purpose. Likewise you would hope the ROSCO could reject them from CAF.

There’s still a set yet to be accepted let alone rejected

 

[LittleAH]

185s won't be leaving TPE anytime soon. The requirement for the rolling stock is still there.

Nova 3's will operate to Saltburn from may 22, requiring 8 sets which will mean 185s will appear more on the Liverpool-Scarborough route and six car formations will be the norm bar the Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers.

 

[Purple Orange]

185s won't be leaving TPE anytime soon. The requirement for the rolling stock is still there.

Nova 3's will operate to Saltburn from may 22, requiring 8 sets which will mean 185s will appear more on the Liverpool-Scarborough route and six car formations will be the norm bar the Leeds-Huddersfield stoppers.

That ignores the 802s though, which we should expect to occupy 2 tph between Manchester & Leeds still.

 

[LittleAH]

That ignores the 802s though, which we should expect to occupy 2 tph between Manchester & Leeds still.

Hull needs 10 185s to run daily as 6 car.
Leeds-Hudds stopper requires 3 185s
Hudds - Man Pic stopper needs 6 185s for 6 car running
Cleethorpes - MIA needs 14 185s for 6 car running (may be extended to Liverpool as per MRTF)
Saltburn takes 8 Nova 3 sets, which means at least 6, if not 8 sets of 185s will be required for Liverpool-Scarborough to run as 6 car.

With that you have 41 185s in daily operation, with 11 Nova 3 diagrams. And with the 802s, theoretically you can have 10 diagrams daily - However, there needs to be sets circulated through Craigentinny and Doncaster, plus issues with the cracking, it's likely to be 13. Added to that, there's work to catch up with on driver training, route knowledge and diversionary routes for TRU.

 

[Fokx]

Leeds-Hudds stopper requires 3 185s
Hudds - Man Pic stopper needs 6 185s for 6 car running

Should that not be 2 and 4 respectively?

 

[Purple Orange]

Hull needs 10 185s to run daily as 6 car.
Leeds-Hudds stopper requires 3 185s
Hudds - Man Pic stopper needs 6 185s for 6 car running
Cleethorpes - MIA needs 14 185s for 6 car running (may be extended to Liverpool as per MRTF)
Saltburn takes 8 Nova 3 sets, which means at least 6, if not 8 sets of 185s will be required for Liverpool-Scarborough to run as 6 car.

With that you have 41 185s in daily operation, with 11 Nova 3 diagrams. And with the 802s, theoretically you can have 10 diagrams daily - However, there needs to be sets circulated through Craigentinny and Doncaster, plus issues with the cracking, it's likely to be 13. Added to that, there's work to catch up with on driver training, route knowledge and diversionary routes for TRU.

Why would you not have 802s utilised on more than one route?

 

[LittleAH]

Why would you not have 802s utilised on more than one route?

They won't be utilised on more than those routes. And there's potential for TPE to run a Newcastle - Edinburgh shuttle as per the "consultation"