'Save the Gatwick Express'

[tbtc]

Gatwick Express trains carried approximately 5.2 million passengers last year between Gatwick and London Victoria

Any idea what proportion of total passengers over that stretch of line is?

 

[metrocammel]

I tend to agree with the camp that believes all major airports should have a dedicated express rail service - divorced from services serving other stations. It's a ridiculous situation to have commuters using a service also used for tourists with large bags. I've experienced this in Paris, and it is why I now get the dedicated coach service from the airport rather than the RER.

On the opposite end of this spectrum is in Hong Kong, where baggage checking check in is carried out at a station in the city, passengers then having no luggage to carry onto the train. This is a fantastic system and would be fantastic if it could ever be introduced in London!

Anyway, I apologise for the tangent, but the point still stands- mixing local pax and commuters with airport passengers isn't a good way to welcome tourists into the country - and if my example is anything to go by, will put them off!

I can't comment on how suited 442s are to airport services as opposed to 460s, but I'm also not fully sure how the GLVs used to work-did pax drop their luggage by hand at Victoria and pick it up at Gatwick?

 

[Greenback]

Well, clearly not everyone who arrives at Gatwick amd uses the railway wants to go to Central London. For a start, those returning from a trip will want to go back to wherever they come from. Stops at places like East Croydon and Clapham Junction help those who want to go to other parts of South London.

I have been to Amsterdam Schipol a fair few times, and I can't ever recall arriving and walking on to a dedicated airport - Amsterdam Centraal service. All the trains I have used have been normal services from and to other parts of the Netherlands. I haven't suffered at all as a result of being with 'normal' passengers!

 

[Failed Unit]

Metrocammel. When I was a little younger you could indeed check in at Victoria for your flight. You bags would be put on the Gatwick Express and the next time you would see them was at your destination. I think you needed to allow a longer time 3 hours if I recall but you could go do more tourist things in London. If you were hand baggage only it was wonderful. It was only in the last 10 years the Victoria check in has closed. I am sure the 460s have baggage cars as when they were ordered it wasn't expected the Victoria check in would be forced to close.

 

[Minstral25]

I'll first say that I can't wait for the Gatwick Express to be removed and hopefully integrated with the fast limited stop London to Brighton Trains.

Living just north of the airport, we get a relatively bad service because of the priority given to the Gatwick Express. It puzzles me why mostly empty trains are given priority over crammed commuter services. It's not the money - we pay thousands for our annual season tickets and the Gatwick express customers pay £25 once a year and the loadings are not that great. 5.2 million passengers a year means an average occupancy of their trains of less than 40%. It remains through politics

To add to this many local and business travellers use the Southern and FCC services possibly because they are cheaper or more likely because they don't want to go to Victoria - they checked and worked out that London Bridge or city Thameslink is a better destination (especially if they are businessmen for the city). So the reality is the local services always have people with their baggage in the train. There is very little separation.

Even the new Brighton services in the rush hour are far from full - I've experienced sitting in the commuter service crammed in with some guys backside in my face for 40 minutes and watched the Class 442 slide past and you can see the empty seats.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, I sympathise with Minstral25 in that a dedicated airport link is a great idea when you've got the capacity, but with a situation like the BML, there's no point having it at the expense of commuters, who are afterall, the bread and butter of that line.

Or, to concur with Greenback's more positive point of view, several other locations have gained a Gatwick Express !

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It was only in the last 10 years the Victoria check in has closed. I am sure the 460s have baggage cars as when they were ordered it wasn't expected the Victoria check in would be forced to close.

Do you know where it was at Victoria?

In general, I don't know where I heard this, but did the Gatwick Express close Coulsdon North?

Thanks

 

[Failed Unit]

Do you know where it was at Victoria?

In general, I don't know where I heard this, but did the Gatwick Express close Coulsdon North?

Thanks

It was in the shopping centre above the platforms. Just after you got to the top of the escalator. No idea what is there now!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

No idea what is there now!

Just above thje GX platforms? I take it the now-shopping centre was in rail use?

 

[swt_passenger]

In general, I don't know where I heard this, but did the Gatwick Express close Coulsdon North?

Thanks

Coulsdon North was closed when they swapped the fast and slow lines around as part of the Brighton line resignalling in the early 80s, but it had only had a limited service since the 60s.

I don't think it was related to the branded Gatwick Express starting, although it may have been coincidental.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Coulsdon North was closed when they swapped the fast and slow lines around as part of the Brighton line resignalling in the early 80s, but it had only had a limited service since the 60s.

I don't think it was related to the branded Gatwick Express starting, although it may have been coincidental.

I think where I read it said it was more referenced to the actual service, rather than brand... (new favourite smilie!)

 

[Failed Unit]

Yes the shopping centre was partly used for the airport check-in above the Gatwick Express platforms for easy loading of baggage, but some of the centre was always retail.

 

[Fig]

The check-in at Victoria was on the corner of Eccleston Bridge Road and the rear station access. It's still there, but empty.

 

[yorkie]

Any idea what proportion of total passengers over that stretch of line is?

A lot higher than that I'm sure.

5.2m/year is 100k/week. That's 14,000 per day. With roughly 4tph between approx 0500-0000 and more at reduced frequency during the night that's around 85 trains each way, so around 170 trains overall (I'm assuming 5.2m is the total in both directions?)

14,000/170 = 82 passengers, which would fit into one-and-a-bit coaches out of the 8-car train. Whenever I see them there are significantly less than that, but I accept the fact that I don't see them at peak times.

The usage of London - Brighton fast trains must be far, far, higher, as these can be incredibly busy even as 12 coach trains and even at off peak times. I doubt any of them run with as few as 87 passengers except maybe overnight, and most would carry hundreds more. Even leaving London at something like 2306, the Brighton trains are busy (I know from staying at Croydon Travelodge).

 

[tbtc]

A lot higher than that I'm sure.

5.2m/year is 100k/week. That's 14,000 per day. With roughly 4tph between approx 0500-0000 and more at reduced frequency during the night that's around 85 trains each way, so around 170 trains overall (I'm assuming 5.2m is the total in both directions?)

14,000/170 = 82 passengers, which would fit into one-and-a-bit coaches out of the 8-car train. Whenever I see them there are significantly less than that, but I accept the fact that I don't see them at peak times.

The usage of London - Brighton fast trains must be far, far, higher, as these can be incredibly busy even as 12 coach trains and even at off peak times. I doubt any of them run with as few as 87 passengers except maybe overnight, and most would carry hundreds more. Even leaving London at something like 2306, the Brighton trains are busy (I know from staying at Croydon Travelodge).

I agree with that. There can't be a lot of trains leaving central London with 87 passengers, there certainly shouldn't be services running through East Croydon (etc) non-stop with that many empty seats on them!

Daft to think there's an eight coach train from London carrying fewer passengers than some Pacers :roll:

 

[richw]

Well, clearly not everyone who arrives at Gatwick amd uses the railway wants to go to Central London. For a start, those returning from a trip will want to go back to wherever they come from. Stops at places like East Croydon and Clapham Junction help those who want to go to other parts of South London.

a stop at clapham, could make a nice connection into SWtrains in the right timings, for people heading to the west country direction, i would much rather have a change at clapham for example, than a victoria to paddington tube to get to say exeter, not sure how many waterloo to exeter services call at clapham junction though, although around half past the even hour seems to be going round my head, correct me if im wrong though. i know going gatwick to reading is possible as well to avoid the tube but multiple otions is always good

 

[O L Leigh]

Sorry to drag this thread back to matters pertaining to the Stansted Express.

To be fair, I nwould still class SX as a dedicated shuttle: Tottenham Hale caters for NE London and the Vic Line, Seven Sisters does this when TOM isn't available. So that's as before. They now alternate at Harlow Toen or Bishops Stortford, adding about 3 mins to the journey, and in all fairness, it does't make the services that much busier or slower, but I see where you are coming from.

The additional intermediate stops have no impact on the journey times. In fact, even with the additional stops every StanEx service will catch up with either a Hertford East, Cambridge or Stratford service somewhere along the route to the extent that you have to run at reduced speeds and modify your driving style in order to avoid having to stop at a red between stations. While we do indeed run at linespeed at certain points along the route, attempting to do so for the entire trip will only result in being stopped at a red somewhere. In fact, we probably have enough time for one further additional intermediate stop (alternating between Broxbourne and Cheshunt...?) without any negative impact on the overall journey time.

And this is the whole point of the Gatwick Express proposals. Like the Stansted Express there are limitations imposed by the infrastructure that set an upper limit on the capacity. Since the airport service has been brought under the auspice of TOC in whose area the service operates, there are opportunities to integrate the airport service more fully with the surrounding area.

Contrary to popular belief, it's not just people travelling to or from London who need to get to the airport quickly. Not so many years ago I had to get to Stansted for a flight to Edinburgh. At this point there was just 1tph stopping at Bishops Stortford for the airport, so I had to go there first and change. With all the fannying about the rail journey must have taken the best part of 45 minutes including the change (though it was even worse coming back) where now it takes just 15 minutes direct.

If these airport services are running virtually empty then I think it makes sense to have them stop additionally in order to get better use from the capacity, especially if the impact on journey times is going to be negligible. Apart from one fateful Christmas Eve that happened to fall on a Saturday when the company decided to run the StanEx at 4 car length as they would on any other Saturday, I have never seen an airport service running at capacity just from the people using the airport itself.

TBH yorkie, there's a big difference in passenger usage at East Croydon and Clapham Jn than there is at Harlow Tn and Bishops Stortford, I've used the SX a bit over the past few months (weekends only admitidly), and no-one ever seems to board or alight there...

Whether you've seen it or not, the StanEx service is incredibly well-used by passengers from Harlow Town and Bishops Stortford. This is particularly the case in the peaks but also applies off-peak and at weekends. After all, for each station these are the fastest services to London.

O L Leigh

 

[schwa]

I tend to agree with the camp that believes all major airports should have a dedicated express rail service - divorced from services serving other stations. It's a ridiculous situation to have commuters using a service also used for tourists with large bags. I've experienced this in Paris, and it is why I now get the dedicated coach service from the airport rather than the RER.

On the opposite end of this spectrum is in Hong Kong, where baggage checking check in is carried out at a station in the city, passengers then having no luggage to carry onto the train. This is a fantastic system and would be fantastic if it could ever be introduced in London!

Anyway, I apologise for the tangent, but the point still stands- mixing local pax and commuters with airport passengers isn't a good way to welcome tourists into the country - and if my example is anything to go by, will put them off!

I can't comment on how suited 442s are to airport services as opposed to 460s, but I'm also not fully sure how the GLVs used to work-did pax drop their luggage by hand at Victoria and pick it up at Gatwick?

You can check-in with a selected number of airlines at Paddington before boarding the HEX.

http://www.heathrowexpress.com/Home/Checkinatpaddington

However, I agree it's not the same or as nearly as good as what they actually do in Hong Kong. This is namely because you still have to drop your own luggage off.

 

[Invincibles]

Having read so much about the Stansted Express and the comparison with Gatwick. Also the remodelling of Gatwick creating terminal platforms in the "middle" of the fast lines. Is it not possible to have the train as Victoria -> Clapham Junction -> East Croydon -> Gatwick in the path of something that does that at the moment and turn whatever train it is replacing into Victoria -> East Croydon -> somewhere after Gatwick.

Passengers from Gatwick to go south are already boarding a train with people on so it is less of a concern.

Such a change would satisfy people who want leisurely boarding of an empty train, important for families with a lot of luggage for example, but would provide much needed capacity between Croydon, Clapham and Victoria (as well as giving more onward connection opportunities at those stations).

I do not like the idea of arriving at Gatwick and trying to squeeze my case onto a train from Brighton that already has a lot of people coming back from their week at the seaside or whatever.

Personally I use Manchester Airport and that has to have one of the best train services, all terminate, all to Piccadilly, and all mostly empty.

 

[Mojo]

Yorkie, Nice to see that your being factual as usual.
Gatwick Express trains carried approximately 5.2 million passengers last year between Gatwick and London Victoria.

If my back of the envelope calculations are correct, as are your figures, that would suggest an average loading of 89.3 passengers per train, which would seem to make yorkie's observations factual given an average capacity of 60-64 seats per Standard coach and a 332 Standard class capacity.

 

[yorkie]

If my back of the envelope calculations are correct, as are your figures, that would suggest an average loading of 89.3 passengers per train, which would seem to make yorkie's observations factual given an average capacity of 60-64 seats per Standard coach and a 332 Standard class capacity.

Yeah, that matches what I said earlier about seeing a decent loading in the coach nearest Victoria and a few more in the next coach. However I think Paul1609 was referring to my TPE example, which wasn't intended to be factual in any way (I hope the word "imagine" and the emoticon gave that away!) and was simply used to demonstrate a point that it doesn't happen anywhere else. I agree with Paul's point that passenger numbers on the Brighton line are higher than TPE, which is exactly why 80-90 passengers per train on such a line is not an effective use of capacity. We don't disagree on that at all.

O L Leigh makes some good points also, and I'm glad to hear the loadings at Bishops Stortford/Harlow are more in line with what I thought they would be!

 

[swt_passenger]

I do not like the idea of arriving at Gatwick and trying to squeeze my case onto a train from Brighton that already has a lot of people coming back from their week at the seaside or whatever.

It is still only peak Gat Ex services that will run from/to Brighton, and then only in the peak flow direction. Offpeak there will still be a 4 tph Gatwick Express, starting at Gatwick. A weekday morning peak train really oughtn't to be full of Brighton holidaymakers (if there is such a thing nowadays)...

The increased number of 442's on half of the 4tph all day 'Brighton Express' services are in addition to the existing 4 tph 'Gatwick Express', hence the 'G word' being removed from the latest livery...

 

[yorkie]

Passengers get very confused about liveries. It should be illegal for RPIs to catch people out on Southern only tickets on Southern liveried FCC operated trains, and vice-versa. Someone at London Bridge wanted to know if the train in Gatwick Express livery called at Gatwick, I said it did not. He seemed surprised.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

It might be worth looking at a potted history of the Gatwick Express service to see what the "problem" is.
It was decided in the sixties that Gatwick would be developed as London's second airport. It was under-used, had a long runway and had a station (Gatwick Racecourse) next to it. The original station at Tinsley Green was closed, Racecourse was enlarged and became Airport and now we're on the way. A (usually) four car set for Gatwick passengers would be attached to the rear of a down train from Victoria and upon arrival at Gatwick would then be detached, attaching in due course to an up train to be taken back to Victoria. THis worked fairly well until the airport traffic started getting busier. The Gatwick portions became branded "Rapid City-Link" and were formed of twelve modified VEPs with seating removed and extra luggage racks installed. These were re-classified as VEGs. Again, this worked fairly well but often went wrong when because of failures and/or miss-diagramming the VEGs went wandering off elswhere. A better solution had to be found, especially as by now the airport was really busy with the explosion of cheap holiday flights as well as international airlines re-locating for the cheaper landing fees resulting in the ordinary trains getting stuffed and jammed with airport luggage with consequential - and justified - whining from season ticket holders. Now, at about this time the WCML was aquiring a fleet of shiny new Mk III coaches and had lots of surplus MkIIe/f coaches that were no longer needed. The Southern had a fleet of class 73/1 locomotives that for the most part were gathering dust in various depots as the work that they were designed for was disappearing as well as several surplus 2-HAPs. Cue some idea bashing and kapow! - a dedicated airport train was born. Take 70 second class coaches and ten first class coaches and form them into a combination of permanently coupled 2 coach sets (1X1+1X2) and permanently coupled 3 coach sets(3X2), Modify them by installing self-opening internal doors and extra luggage racks, modify the HAP driving coach into a driving motor luggage van (keep the 500hp power bogie) and have it supply the auxilliary power for the coaches and attach a 73 (now classified 73/2) to the other end and there you have it. A 90 mph dedicated airport train. Now, to encourage people to use that specific train for the airport make it frequent - every 15 minutes throughout the day (the original slogan was "You're wearing the timetable on your wrist") and modify the indicator boards at Gatwick to show only the expresses as going to Victoria (everything else was displayed as the station stop before Victoria - usually Clapham Junction) and at Victoria the same principal in that only the expresses were shown for Gatwick(everything else would be shown as the station stop before and after Gatwick). It was a blinding success. Both B.A. and American Airlines allowed passengers to check-in at Victoria, drop their luggage off there and (hopefully) the next time they saw it would be at their destination.
Then the railway was privatised (thankyou Mr. Major, even Margaret was against it saying that it was a privatisation too far) and the three companies using the London - Gatwick route vied for passengers. And so we've come full circle. Once again the "ordinary" trains are rammed with luggage, once again the commuters are griping about airport luggage jamming the trains and with the 377's lack of luggage space it's no joke. Any day soon some brilliant 23 year old at Southern Railway will burst in to a meeting room, wide eyed and panting and say, "I've got a great idea, why don't we label the rear unit at Victoria for Gatwick passengers only and detach it at Gatwick and re-attach it to an up train from Brighton?"

 

[yorksrob]

Don't forget the Gatwick HAL's, which had SUB style Bullied bodywork and were used to strengthen Gatwick trains in the time of the 1st generation electrics - arguable the forerunner of the Rapid City Link

It's interesting how these things come full circle. At the time they were introduced, dedicated Airport units/trains must have been a real benefit to existing passengers from further South, not having to spend the rest of their journey to London squashed in with a family and their luggage back from Benidorm. Yet twenty - thirty years on, with commuter trains filling up even more, limited new paths and a less than full Gatwick Express blocking the paths that are there, it's easy to see how one decade's solution can become the problem a few decades down the line.

 

[Minstral25]

There are 9 fast trains an hour to Gatwick (plus a few outer suburban trains to Horsham). Plus 4 an hour from London Bridge (FCC) and again 2 outer suburban trains an hour to Horsham.

The line is congested - 6 of these trains are dedicated Gatwick or Brighton Expresses. Both relatively short underused trains (even comparatively in the peak).

Why not change it to 4 trains an hour - Victoria to Gatwick - front 6 coaches on to Haywards Heath and Brighton as a fast service. Yes Brighton may no longer have 51 minute services but it will free up other routes for faster services desperately needed. Probably 60 minutes to Brighton isn't that bad really!

 

[RobShipway]

Okay, first and foremost having grew up on the outskirts of Brighton I think a better train service can be provided by FCC doing the Brighton - London slow services and Southern doing the semi - fast and fast services. The semi fast services being Brighton, Gatwick, East Croydon, Clapham Junction, Victoria as well as the fast service which is the Brighton, East Croydon to Victoria service which are actually the services that were in place prior to the Gatwick Express service being introduced many years ago. The fast services should be provided by the class 442 trains, however the semi fast services should be provided by Class 377 trains.

Unless the class 442 trains have had some seats thrown out of them since I used them on a fairly regular basis basis back in the early 1990's between Bournemouth, Poole and Southampton then these should just be kept for the fast services. But unfortunately as the saying goes, it is not an ideal world.....