'Save the Gatwick Express'

[MidnightFlyer]

http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/busi...e_the_Gatwick_Express_Campaign____stepped_up/

Title is very misleading... basically Southern just want to change the stock from December 2012, but everyone's kicked about it...

Thoughts?

 

[jopsuk]

if there was line capacity, ideally the Gatwick Express would remain as it was previously- ie all terminating/starting at the airport, using dedicated stock- and the "Brighton Express" would use the 442s (or better for Southern- more Electrostars) not stopping at the airport.

But there isn't line capacity. The 442 fleet provide more capacity- though the suitability of the stock is valid point of concern.

 

[yorkie]

Title is very misleading...

Indeed.

basically Southern just want to change the stock from December 2012

Do you honestly think that a franchise operator can make such decisions?

This really is nothing to do with Southern! The DfT has decided it all.

For once, the DfT are actually being sensible.

Gatwick Express carts a lot of fresh air on one of the busiest lines in the UK, and rather like HS1, is responsible for a lot of ticketing confusion, with a ludicrous range of tickets available that must confuse even regular commuters, let alone tourists.

The TOC 'Gatwick Express' was abolished ages ago. It is now just a brand name. The trains are operated by Southern. Southern-only tickets must, legally, be valid on Gatwick Express, yet there are claims that they are not accepted. This is clearly unacceptable and the sooner the fiasco is ended the better.

Trains are already running through to/from Brighton in the peaks. This is a much more sensible use of capacity. However this should happen all the time.

The Argus are acting against the interests of Brighton line commuters if they think the Gatwick Express should cart fresh air and a handful of tourists paying ludicrously high fares, while commuters are squashed like sardines, is a good thing.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Indeed.

Do you honestly think that a franchise operator can make such decisions?

I wanted to think of a better title, but words failed me

I was merely highlighting what the article implied, obviously I'm that stupid. Yet.

 

[swt_passenger]

The date's wrong anyway, it's Dec 2010 the 460s were supposed to be off lease. And they've never been used on Brighton services yet have they, so what's the actual problem for the local rag?

 

[sheff1]

To me, the more worrying idea is gating Gatwick Airport station.

I would expect a large (even majority) number of people boarding would have lots of luggage. Luggage and gates is never a good combintaion.

Is it really true that large numbers of 'undesirable elements' are travelling up and down on the Gatwick Express without paying ?

 

[The Barlow Boy]

To me, the more worrying idea is gating Gatwick Airport station.

I would expect a large (even majority) number of people boarding would have lots of luggage. Luggage and gates is never a good combintaion.

Is it really true that large numbers of 'undesirable elements' are travelling up and down on the Gatwick Express without paying ?

I've never seen any. The trains are usually double manned for ticketing purposes, it seems to keep 'em off.

 

[rail-britain]

I tend to agree, it is a backwards step
The Gatwick Express worked perfectly well as a shuttle service
The rolling stock suited the typical customer profile

Unless there has been a sudden change in such customer profile, then the service level and rolling stock specification should be retained
However, this is a railway run by the DfT, so sense may not prevail

I agree that the service could be integrated into another service route, thus saving on station slots at London, but again if the rolling stock is not suitable what is the point?

One final issue is when passengers board at Gatwick
If the train is already full (or near to full), what are they supposed to do?
Travelling (to most people) is a tiring experience, and after a flight the last thing you want to do is stand (or sit on your luggage)

Perhaps it is time for this to be sold outright, to an Open Access Operator?

 

[Failed Unit]

Perhaps it is time for this to be sold outright, to an Open Access Operator?

But it is the lack of paths that is the problem from what I understand. I haven't used the Gatwick Express for many years as "Southern Only" tickets area cheaper - the irony, so can't comment on how well loaded it is, but both Thameslink and Southern trains already have a lot of people using them to get to the airport. Off peak it is fine, in the peak I can't comment, but as Gatwick Express services already start back at Brighton I guess the problem already exists.

Once thameslink 2020 is complete and with 12 car trains in use maybe enough capacity will exist for everyone.

It is odd that HeX is the only real airport express now, the Stansted one is not as express as it used to be and Gatwick is going the same way, it look like airport express' are luxary now.

 

[daikilo]

One final issue is when passengers board at Gatwick
If the train is already full (or near to full), what are they supposed to do?
Travelling (to most people) is a tiring experience, and after a flight the last thing you want to do is stand (or sit on your luggage)

Perhaps it is time for this to be sold outright, to an Open Access Operator?

Gatwick Airport has recently been sold by the operator (who also owns Heathrow) to a new operator. The direct and exclusive Gatwick Express will now disappear unlike Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect.

Suggesting airport travellers should join longer distance trains will not work and has been proven probably hundreds of times around the world. Airports need a dedicated service.

That said, if there are insufficient paths to sustain such a dedicated service then something is better than nothing. Open Access will not create additional paths and indeed will likely disrupt the capacity optimisation process.

 

[tbtc]

it look like airport express' are luxary now.

Not necessarily a "luxury", but are they good use of scarce paths? Think of all the demand between London Victoria - Clapham Junction - East Croydon - Gatwick. Do we really have space for four trains an hour specifically for the airport?

There's not a dedicated "Luton Express" and nobody in their right mind would suggest starting one and taking up valuable paths on the MML. Gatwick is the same; it's a legacy operation that we would never create today.

Heathrow and Stansted are different because they are branch lines, so it's not like the trains can do much else, other than shuttle one way and the other.

Also, Gatwick has become more of a "holiday" Airport than a "business" one, which means less demand for a "premium" service to it. Families on budget holidays aren't going to want to pay a higher fare for an Airport train (but businesspeople might)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Open Access will not create additional paths and indeed will likely disrupt the capacity optimisation process.

Spot on.

See also "Welwyn Viaduct"

 

[yorkie]

Heathrow and Stansted are different because they are branch lines, so it's not like the trains can do much else, other than shuttle one way and the other.

Stansted isn't different, in fact what is happening with Gatwick Express is quite similar to what happened with Stansted Express.

Stansted Express used to be non-stop from Liverpool St (and Tottenham Hale - pick up only) to Stansted and vice-versa. Now it calls at Tottenham Hale as a regular stop, and at least one intermediate station additionally. It is no longer a dedicated airport service. I do not have a problem with it because there are no "Route NXEA" tickets that clueless people then try to claim isn't valid on the trains, even though they are run by NXEA. By calling additionally it doesn't cart fresh air around and it has much more than a handful of passengers on each train.

I haven't used the Gatwick Express for many years as "Southern Only" tickets area cheaper.

I do not agree that you cannot use Gatwick Express on a Southern only ticket.

http://www.gatwickexpress.com

© Gatwick Express is operated by Southern

IANAL but I'd like to see that one go to court, but I am pretty sure Southern would back down. (Imagine Southern taking someone to court over refusing to pay an excess for a Southern only ticket on a train given the branding of a service that is operated by Southern!). If anyone is up for a mass travel on the Southern operated service on a Southern ticket, I'd be up for joining them if I am in the London area at the time.

 

[tbtc]

Stansted isn't different, in fact what is happening with Gatwick Express is quite similar to what happened with Stansted Express.

Stansted Express used to be non-stop from Liverpool St (and Tottenham Hale - pick up only) to Stansted and vice-versa. Now it calls at Tottenham Hale as a regular stop, and at least one intermediate station additionally. It is no longer a dedicated airport service. I do not have a problem with it because there are no "Route NXEA" tickets that clueless people then try to claim isn't valid on the trains, even though they are run by NXEA. By calling additionally it doesn't cart fresh air around and it has much more than a handful of passengers on each train.

I agree; the point I was making is that if Stansted wasn't a branchline then there wouldn't be a specific "shuttle" - the trains would probably be integrated with the Cambridge service in the way that the Gatwick trains are being integrated with the Brighton service.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Stansted isn't different, in fact what is happening with Gatwick Express is quite similar to what happened with Stansted Express.

Stansted Express used to be non-stop from Liverpool St (and Tottenham Hale - pick up only) to Stansted and vice-versa. Now it calls at Tottenham Hale as a regular stop, and at least one intermediate station additionally. It is no longer a dedicated airport service. I do not have a problem with it because there are no "Route NXEA" tickets that clueless people then try to claim isn't valid on the trains, even though they are run by NXEA. By calling additionally it doesn't cart fresh air around and it has much more than a handful of passengers on each train.

I thought he wasa talking about route capacity: SX and HX/HC services go off onto their own BL, GX blocks the ML 4 times an hour... <insert appropriate smiley>

 

[yorkie]

I thought he wasa talking about route capacity: SX and HX/HC services go off onto their own BL, GX blocks the ML 4 times an hour... <insert appropriate smiley>

Maybe, but he also said the Luton Express isn't a dedicated service, but the Stansted Express isn't really dedicated. Yes, the name suggests it is a dedicated service, but in reality it isn't, although it was originally.

Yes, I agree the issue of going beyond the airport & conflicting movements over busy lines is different, I agree with tbtc that Heathrow Express/Stansted Express are different in that regard.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Maybe, but he also said the Luton Express isn't a dedicated service, but the Stansted Express isn't really dedicated. Yes, the name suggests it is a dedicated service, but in reality it isn't, although it was originally.

Yes, I agree the issue of going beyond the airport & conflicting movements over busy lines is different, I agree with tbtc that Heathrow Express/Stansted Express are different in that regard.

To be fair, I nwould still class SX as a dedicated shuttle: Tottenham Hale caters for NE London and the Vic Line, Seven Sisters does this when TOM isn't available. So that's as before. They now alternate at Harlow Toen or Bishops Stortford, adding about 3 mins to the journey, and in all fairness, it does't make the services that much busier or slower, but I see where you are coming from.

 

[yorkie]

I agree; the point I was making is that if Stansted wasn't a branchline then there wouldn't be a specific "shuttle" - the trains would probably be integrated with the Cambridge service in the way that the Gatwick trains are being integrated with the Brighton service.

Yes, you're probably right!

And I wonder if a Cambridge newspaper would be moaning about it! I suspect not!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To be fair, I nwould still class SX as a dedicated shuttle: Tottenham Hale caters for NE London and the Vic Line, Seven Sisters does this when TOM isn't available. So that's as before. They now alternate at Harlow Toen or Bishops Stortford, adding about 3 mins to the journey, and in all fairness, it does't make the services that much busier or slower, but I see where you are coming from.

But you admit it's not dedicated by the fact it calls alternately at Harlow / Bishops Stortford. Gatwick Express should call alternately at Clapham Junction / East Croydon, and I believe that is indeed planned. This is a much better use of capacity.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

TBH yorkie, there's a big difference in passenger usage at East Croydon and Clapham Jn than there is at Harlow Tn and Bishops Stortford, I've used the SX a bit over the past few months (weekends only admitidly), and no-one ever seems to board or alight there...

 

[yorkie]

TBH yorkie, there's a big difference in passenger usage at East Croydon and Clapham Jn than there is at Harlow Tn and Bishops Stortford, I've used the SX a bit over the past few months (weekends only admitidly), and no-one ever seems to board or alight there...

Which makes it all the more scandelous that an 8-car train with a decent loading in the car nearest Victoria, followed by a couple of people in the next car, and then 6 empty cars (this is typical based on my observations and experiences of travelling on it), fails to call at either of these busy stations and the passengers watching this empty train go past are then forced onto a wedged train, that is only wedged because the previous train was empty. It's a daft situation that happens on no other line in Britain, at least not to anywhere near this extent. Change has been long overdue.

 

[swt_passenger]

Dec 2010 sees another (seventh) GatEx start from Brighton in the am peak at 0815. The through services using 442s have been running for nearly 2 years, and it has been reported in the Sussex RUS that there are no problems with capacity for, or excessive dwell at Gatwick, to pick up airport passengers.

There are concrete plans to stop 'two to four' of the peak through services per hour at Clapham Junction, in am and pm peaks, to deal with Brighton - Clapham Jn demand, but AFAICT no plans to stop at East Croydon. (Presumably because East Croydon also has a decent service by FCC).

If they had already built the future four fast platform arrangement at Gatwick, perhaps the 442s could have theoretically run in pairs between Victoria and Gatwick, with the country end portion extended to/from Brighton?

I don't think that's particularly reliable though...

 

[telstarbox]

Is there even any point in the Gatwick Express with its extra fares?
A quick look at the next few trains:

13.15 Victoria - Gatwick, Gatwick Express. 30 minutes, £16.90 anytime single.
13.17 Victoria - Gatwick, Southern. 31 minutes, £11.90 anytime single, also calling at CLJ and ECR (terminating at Eastbourne/Littlehampton).

So that's an extra £5 to save one minute and miss out the intermediate stations. It seems to me that the only point of the GX is to take advantage of:
-Tourists who'll land at the airport, see all the "quickest train to London" banners and assume there's a significant time saving (see above)
-Airport passengers who don't often get trains, who get to Victoria, again see "Gatwick Express" and assume it's the best way to reach the airport because it has Gatwick in the name.

It's different from the Heathrow Express (a dedicated line and much quicker than the tube), the Stansted Express (no premium fare) or Luton (served by normal FCC trains anyway).

 

[Greenback]

No, there is no point to it now. When it began, it was seen as way for cash strapped BR to increase revenue by providing a dedicated service for London - Gatwick passengers using trains with extra luggage space. There was no premium fare as far as I can recall, this only began in the run up to privatisation!

Times have changed, and it no longer serves any useful purpose.

 

[tbtc]

I can see the point of a "premium" fare during the early years of HS1, as it makes certain* journeys significantly faster, brand new high speed trains, new line etc

However, there's really no way you can justify those fares on Gatwick Express

(* - some journeys, not all, I'm not trying to restart that argument!)

 

[Greenback]

There was a bit of an outcry when the higher Gat-Ex fares first came in. IIRC, it was in 1993 or 1994. I don;t think it was ever really justified. The original concept was to seperate air travellers with their luggage, from other service. Once the higher fares came in many people chose to use the other services anyway, thus defeating the roiginal idea!

 

[tbtc]

There was a bit of an outcry when the higher Gat-Ex fares first came in. IIRC, it was in 1993 or 1994. I don;t think it was ever really justified. The original concept was to seperate air travellers with their luggage, from other service. Once the higher fares came in many people chose to use the other services anyway, thus defeating the roiginal idea!

Don't go giving Transpennine "Express" any ideas about charging even higher fares for an airport service...

 

[Greenback]

Lol! How about a dedicated Cardiff - Rhoose Pacer service at £15 each way! The Cardiff Rail Air Partnership, or CRAP for short!

 

[yorkie]

Don't go giving Transpennine "Express" any ideas about charging even higher fares for an airport service...

It'd be the DfT, but yes, imagine an 8-car train going non-stop from Leeds to the Airport, with about 20 passengers on board, leaving 200 passengers at Huddersfield to cram on an already busy 185. All the normal fares would be routed TPE/Northern Only, but the airport service would be called Manchester Express and have ridiculously over-inflated prices, although the service would be run by TPE, and have TPE conductors, they would be denying that they work for TPE and chinging everyone on a TPE only ticket.

Sounds crazy? Indeed but this is what happens with the Gatwick Express, which is why it should have been axed ages ago. But better late than never!

 

[tbtc]

Lol! How about a dedicated Cardiff - Rhoose Pacer service at £15 each way! The Cardiff Rail Air Partnership, or CRAP for short!

The WAG members would probably love that, since they could claim it on expenses and it'd keep the "riff raff" away :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It'd be the DfT, but yes, imagine an 8-car train going non-stop from Leeds to the Airport, with about 20 passengers on board, leaving 200 passengers at Huddersfield to cram on an already busy 185. All the normal fares would be routed TPE/Northern Only, but the airport service would be called Manchester Express and have ridiculously over-inflated prices, although the service would be run by TPE, and have TPE conductors, they would be denying that they work for TPE and chinging everyone on a TPE only ticket.

Sounds crazy? Indeed but this is what happens with the Gatwick Express, which is why it should have been axed ages ago. But better late than never!

I agree completely with you - Gatwick Express (as things are) is completely undefensible

 

[paul1609]

It'd be the DfT, but yes, imagine an 8-car train going non-stop from Leeds to the Airport, with about 20 passengers on board, leaving 200 passengers at Huddersfield to cram on an already busy 185. All the normal fares would be routed TPE/Northern Only, but the airport service would be called Manchester Express and have ridiculously over-inflated prices, although the service would be run by TPE, and have TPE conductors, they would be denying that they work for TPE and chinging everyone on a TPE only ticket.

Sounds crazy? Indeed but this is what happens with the Gatwick Express, which is why it should have been axed ages ago. But better late than never!

Yorkie, Nice to see that your being factual as usual.
Gatwick Express trains carried approximately 5.2 million passengers last year between Gatwick and London Victoria.
Id suggest that means that the passengers carried by Gatwick Express's "empty" trains are about the same in passenger numbers as the entire leeds to manchester via huddersfield line!
As it happens I think that what is being suggested now is a good thing. However dont look to airport fares reducing anytime soon. The subsidy paid by the average passenger to hm government is about £4.20 thats nearly as much as that paid to every passenger by HM government for using a Northern service.

 

[Matt Taylor]

And this picture shows the kind of problems that GX causes at Gatwick by crossing from the 'Quarry' lines to the GX platforms:

http://matthew-taylor.fotopic.net/p57255049.html

This alone is a major block to capacity on the line. I don't see that losing the GX brand is likely to happen given that 'Rte Gatwick Express' attracts a higher price, which suits Southern and the DfT, and there is little incentive for this to change.