TFL Overground to take over Southeastern Metro?

[JamesU2002]

London Overground to take over Southeastern's local rail franchise with more flexible part-week season tickets, government announcement next week.

Source: https://twitter.com/SEninemag/status/1393508623402287104?s=19

Not sure how much truth there is to this?

But apparently the Government to announce TFL will take over Southeastern next week and incorporate it into the Overground network.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I doubt TfL will be running trains on HS1.
Probably just the inner suburban routes (if true).

 

[geoffk]

Presumably this means the Dartford loop?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is there a more official source ?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I'm personally sceptical considering this wasn't even part of Sadiq Khans manifesto. Plus this doesn't exactly look like the most legitmate source.

And I can't image tfl wanting to run services from Victoria to Ramsgate.

 

[JamesU2002]

Yeah I'm not convinced personally. Wondering if anyone if the "know" could shed any details?

 

[ComUtoR]

Yeah I'm not convinced personally. Wondering if anyone if the "know" could shed any details?

Its been touted for a few years now that TfL would take over the Metro routes. When Borris was Mayor he wanted "everything within the M25" Sadiq Khan followed suit and I'm pretty sure he wants SE Metro too.

However, its never been clear wether TfL just want more control over the routes, tickets and general oversight or an actual split with SE Metro/Mainline and a change to the TOC.

SE have a contract till October. SO unless they have agreed to walk away I have serious doubts. Maybe its possible but I've never seen anything more than rumors

 

[JaJaWa]

I think it’s come from the announcement about Great British Railways using “London Overground–style concessions”. We should know more when the Government gives us more details about that next week.

That said, if anyone can deliver an expansion to London Overground, a former Mayor of London that’s Prime Minister is well placed to do so.

 

[zwk500]

https://twitter.com/SEninemag/status/1393508623402287104?s=19

Not sure how much truth there is to this?

But apparently the Government to announce TFL will take over Southeastern next week and incorporate it into the Overground network.

I suspect it's more that the Government will announce next week that TfL will take over some Southeastern routes in the future (probably 2-3 years minimum, could be 12-18 months though).

In theory, it could be relatively quick to deploy LO branding and integrate the North Kent Rounders into the LO service, using SE drivers under contract as a concession. But I won't be holding my breath.

@geoffk (Sorry the quote function doesn't work for an Edit, and the mods don't like double posts)

Presumably this means the Dartford loop?

I suspect, IF it happens (genuinely don't know either way), the limits will be Dartford, Orpington and Sevenoaks. The limits could be slightly smaller (Slade Green, Grove Park + Bromley North, Bromely South), it depends on how the services will actually be operated. I believe TfL Buses operate beyond Greater London and into Kent around the edge of the M25, so there is a precedent.

 

[JaJaWa]

In theory, it could be relatively quick to deploy LO branding and integrate the North Kent Rounders into the LO service, using SE drivers under contract as a concession. But I won't be holding my breath.

I’ve always thought that the private TOCs could simply brand their inner London services as London Overground and TfL could tidy up the stations…

 

[zwk500]

I’ve always thought that the private TOCs could simply brand their inner London services as London Overground and TfL could tidy up the stations…

They wouldn't do so without a big sack of cash from TfL, who have always had bigger fish to fry. I'm also not sure it really helps that much, given the Cannon Street services are kind of their own self-contained thing, and the nearest LO currently gets is the ELL service to New Cross.

 

[Class 170101]

In theory, it could be relatively quick to deploy LO branding and integrate the North Kent Rounders into the LO service, using SE drivers under contract as a concession. But I won't be holding my breath.

@geoffk (Sorry the quote function doesn't work for an Edit, and the mods don't like double posts)

I suspect, IF it happens (genuinely don't know either way), the limits will be Dartford, Orpington and Sevenoaks. The limits could be slightly smaller (Slade Green, Grove Park + Bromley North, Bromely South), it depends on how the services will actually be operated. I believe TfL Buses operate beyond Greater London and into Kent around the edge of the M25, so there is a precedent.

Surely the drivers at certain depots would transfer to the new concession rather than be hired in from South Eastern.

 

[Horizon22]

I am not sure this is going to be that imminent. Unless its literally "these SE trains now become LO services", there's the timetable to consider (although a new one is coming about, I think we'd be aware of something by now) as well as staffing, station ownership and the like.

TfL isn't exactly loaded right now and whilst its always been their ambition to take over SE (and bits of Southern & SWR for that matter) I expect nothing more than an announcement that it is due to happen some time in the future.

 

[yorksrob]

Charing, Harrietsham, Martin Mill, Pluckley, Yalding, Battle, Frant, Chartham etc don't strike me as LO territory TBH.

 

[Snow1964]

There is a local organisation in London SE9 (Brockley) that has apparently had a Heads Up about some transfer of some SouthEastern trains to Overground

https://twitter.com/SEninemag/status/1393508623402287104

London Overground to take over Southeastern's local rail franchise with more flexible part-week season tickets, government announcement next week.

Unable to verify this, but have been reminded that the TfL Covid grant runs out on 18th, so something has to be announced regarding TfL finances and services in next 3 days anyway

 

[Horizon22]

Charing, Harrietsham, Martin Mill, Pluckley, Yalding, Battle, Frant, Chartham etc don't strike me as LO territory TBH.

Well they wouldn't be taken over. If it was just the CHX/CST side it will be all the routes (3 ways) to Dartford and probably Orpington / Sevenoaks service too. If it included Victoria, also the Bromley South / Orpington stoppers which again would be the likely boundary. And for good measure, the Bromley North shuttle. Much like LO didn't take over all of Greater Anglia's operation.

 

[ComUtoR]

The problem of course is what to do with Gravesend. Gravesend is a natural end point for services as they already run into and out of the bay. Anything beyond Dartford is pretty much firmly within Kent but Bluewater (Greenhithe) and Ebbsfleet will need serious consideration. There was an issue recently in Dartford because you get London Bus' and Kent busses all running but you cant use the train. Dartford Moved into the travelcard zone to match the local services. Dartford would be a logical cut off point but The link to Bluewater and Ebbsfleet cannot be ignored.

Same with Soaks. Orpington is the natual cut off point but many services start and terminate at Sevenoaks. They have wanted an extension of the boundary for years and tbh it would make sense to extend to Sevenoaks. The alternative is to cut off your nose to spite... Terminating Metro at Orpy and Dartford could mean a dramatic shift in services through kent.

 

[TRAX]

Obviously this would be just the Metro routes. The source is indeed dodgy but it does coincide with next week’s announcement about franchising and the DfT so who knows…

 

[swt_passenger]

I suspect it's more that the Government will announce next week that TfL will take over some Southeastern routes in the future (probably 2-3 years minimum, could be 12-18 months though).

…and even the quoted tweet refers to just local services. We’ve discussed this proposal quite a few times before, and people have often referred to taking over the whole TOC in their thread titles. Not sure if it’s just wishful thinking, misunderstanding, or exaggeration.

 

[zwk500]

…and even the quoted tweet refers to just local services. We’ve discussed this proposal quite a few times before, and people have often referred to taking over the whole TOC in their thread titles. Not sure if it’s just wishful thinking, misunderstanding, or exaggeration.

Misunderstanding, I expect. No doubt we'll just have to sit and wait for the announcement next week, and then we can ruminate on the likely timescales (and chance of it actually happening).

 

[TRAX]

…and even the quoted tweet refers to just local services. We’ve discussed this proposal quite a few times before, and people have often referred to taking over the whole TOC in their thread titles. Not sure if it’s just wishful thinking, misunderstanding, or exaggeration.

True, the thread title should read Southeastern Metro.

 

[ComUtoR]

…and even the quoted tweet refers to just local services. We’ve discussed this proposal quite a few times before, and people have often referred to taking over the whole TOC in their thread titles. Not sure if it’s just wishful thinking, misunderstanding, or exaggeration.

Splitting the TOC is just as fanciful. How would you go about splitting a franchise part way through its contracted term ? Which depots would you carve off to the new TOCs ? There would need to be discussions with how to split the rolling stock too.

 

[zwk500]

Splitting the TOC is just as fanciful. How would you go about splitting a franchise part way through its contracted term ? Which depots would you carve off to the new TOCs ? There would need to be discussions with how to split the rolling stock too.

The franchise was taken back under COVID and a new contract is yet to be issued. It's not fanciful to suggest it could all get grouped in together, only that it won't happen overnight.

[TL,DR: Southeastern awarded short term contract in March 2020 until October '21, with option for DfT to extend until March '22]

Southeastern confirms new Direct Award Contract

Southeastern today confirms that the Department for Transport (DfT) has awarded a Direct Award Contract to Govia (a subsidiary of the Go Ahead Group (65%) and Keolis (35%)) to continue operating the Southeastern franchise.

newsroom.southeasternrailway.co.uk

 

[class379]

Does that mean 376s to LO? Might finally get some attention

 

[JamesU2002]

Updated the title and body of my original message. Apologies for any confusion.

 

[zwk500]

Updated the title and body of my original message. Apologies for any confusion.

Your message still reads as though the government is announcing that the transfer itself will take place next week, rather than it's simply making the announcement next week about the transfer some time in the future.

But apparently the Government to announce TFL will take over Southeastern next week and incorporate it into the Overground network.

Should be 'But apparently the Government to announce next week that TfL will take over Southeastern Metro and incorporate it into the Overground network.'

 

[swt_passenger]

Splitting the TOC is just as fanciful. How would you go about splitting a franchise part way through its contracted term ? Which depots would you carve off to the new TOCs ? There would need to be discussions with how to split the rolling stock too.

IIRC the overground split out of GA was organised over quite a few years before it actually took place, it was written into a franchise spec to divide into splittable business units for some later date. Certainly a slow and complicated process as you rightly point out...

 

[Kite159]

The problem of course is what to do with Gravesend. Gravesend is a natural end point for services as they already run into and out of the bay. Anything beyond Dartford is pretty much firmly within Kent but Bluewater (Greenhithe) and Ebbsfleet will need serious consideration. There was an issue recently in Dartford because you get London Bus' and Kent busses all running but you cant use the train. Dartford Moved into the travelcard zone to match the local services. Dartford would be a logical cut off point but The link to Bluewater and Ebbsfleet cannot be ignored.

Same with Soaks. Orpington is the natual cut off point but many services start and terminate at Sevenoaks. They have wanted an extension of the boundary for years and tbh it would make sense to extend to Sevenoaks. The alternative is to cut off your nose to spite... Terminating Metro at Orpy and Dartford could mean a dramatic shift in services through kent.

I would say Sevenoaks would be a better cut-off point heading South, only because two of the stations between Orpington & Sevenoaks are already in zone 6.

 

[JamesU2002]

Your message still reads as though the government is announcing that the transfer itself will take place next week, rather than it's simply making the announcement next week about the transfer some time in the future.

Should be 'But apparently the Government to announce next week that TfL will take over Southeastern Metro and incorporate it into the Overground network.'

I've quoted the tweet and posed a question in the body of my message, including a question mark in the title, I think it's pretty clear at this point everything is speculation. Sheesh semantics.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I've quoted the tweet and posed a question in the body of my message, including a question mark in the title, I think it's pretty clear at this point everything is speculation. Sheesh.

I think what he was saying was that the next week was in the wrong place and it sounds like TFL will be adding the Southeastern service to the Overground Network next week.

Obviously, that's not what you mean but I think that's what he was trying to say.