London Theme Park HS1 congestion

[Ianno87]

In this case the theme will do nothing to attract tourists to Kent or benefit local people.

Other than, you know, providing hundreds of jobs.

 

[Cantab26]

That is not quite how the system works in this case. The Developer has set out its forecasts that show the scheme will work with existing rail capacity. HS1 will need to show that it will not. The Planning Inspector will come to a view as to which is the most likely outcome after each side's barristers have tried to undermine the other side's arguments, while taking into account all the other factors that need to be considered. The Inspector(s) will make their recommendation to the Secretary of State who will consider the political considerations. In the great scheme of things, unless HS1 can show the railway will completely fall over with the Proposed Scheme then it will become a minor issue. As highlighted before HS1 will probably be brought off by some financial contribution to crowd control at St Pancras.

There are a number of other issues to be addressed as well. For example, the promoter is seeking powers of compulsory acquisition over HS1 operational land without providing replacement land. If this cannot be resolved then the DCO cannot include the powers and that will generally mean ‘game over’.

Edit: it was funny stumbling over this thread. I had wondered what had happened with these representations after they left my desk a few weeks ago!

 

[BluePenguin]

Other than, you know, providing hundreds of jobs.

Granted, jobs will be provided but who says the locals will wish to work at the resort? The owners may find better suited candidates from further afield employ them instead anyway

In addition, the opening of the resort will inevitably lead to house and rent prices rising. So unless the wages paid are particularly high then these "hundreds of jobs" will not be of any interest at all. Applicants will probably come from the various Medway towns, if there are any.

Thorpe Park and Chessington World of Adventures for example. What proof do we have that majority of staff are all local people living around Chertsey, Chessington and not further afield from Surrey?

 

[cle]

Granted, jobs will be provided but who says the locals will wish to work at the resort? The owners may find better suited candidates from further afield employ them instead anyway

You have just described any job in any free market! These same locals might eschew Bluewater jobs for better ones in London - is that okay? Lol

Locals would benefit from infrastructure - like a Crossrail extension. And there is nothing there right now, so I can't see any arguments against. I have zero sympathy for any motorist, if that's an angle.

 

[BluePenguin]

Which is not an unreasonable viewpoint. If locals have to suffer inconvenience due to tourism why should they not expect economic gain as some sort of compensation?

I agree, it is a perfectly reasonable viewpoint. It will not only be locals but ALL stations served by HS1 who shall be inconvenienced. Every single train will be full and standing to Ebbsfleet International. Us Kent residents will never make it home. It is bad enough already. Our mainline trains to Charing Cross were replaced by the Javelins to free up capacity. Now that capacity should be returned to us. It will be a hilarious news story otherwise.

Locals should be offered something in return that is better than a job at the resort. Perhaps them making use of local Bed & Breakfasts for visitors instead of their own over priced hotels?

There are a number of other issues to be addressed as well. For example, the promoter is seeking powers of compulsory acquisition over HS1 operational land without providing replacement land. If this cannot be resolved then the DCO cannot include the powers and that will generally mean ‘game over’.

Edit: it was funny stumbling over this thread. I had wondered what had happened with these representations after they left my desk a few weeks ago!

I have no words - unbelievable!

 

[Cantab26]

I have no words - unbelievable!

It gets even better: didn’t even bother to consult with DfT, despite them being a landowner. As Crown land, they can only use it if DfT agrees. The promoter has completely failed to adhere to the pre-application consultation requirements.

I see that DfT has also made a representation to the effect that it does not support the application. That will be interesting since DfT will be making the decision on the DCO!

 

[BluePenguin]

You have just described any job in any free market! These same locals might eschew Bluewater jobs for better ones in London - is that okay? Lol

Locals would benefit from infrastructure - like a Crossrail extension. And there is nothing there right now, so I can't see any arguments against. I have zero sympathy for any motorist, if that's an angle.

That is true, you make a valid point. Although in an ideal world we wouldn't all be commuting miles and miles for employment would we? Everyone wants a good work life balance

The locals will only benefit from the Crossrail extensions if they were heading to London... probably for work. However, this may help reduce the traffic on the A2 to offset the thousands of resort visitors.

If it was up to me, I would NOT run direct services to the resort on HS1. To avoid overcrowding, Ebbsfleet International may even need to become pick up and set down only to enable commuters to board work.

Instead I would deploy some the many Thameslink services to Rainham which cart around fresh air once outside of the M25. These services are popular to statins in Greater London only. Nobody from Medway uses them much. Divert them to the resort instead! At least then the demand would be spread out amongst the several London Terminals

 

[bramling]

You have just described any job in any free market! These same locals might eschew Bluewater jobs for better ones in London - is that okay? Lol

Locals would benefit from infrastructure - like a Crossrail extension. And there is nothing there right now, so I can't see any arguments against. I have zero sympathy for any motorist, if that's an angle.

Whether one has sympathy or not for motorists isn't really an issue, however increased congestion over Dartford *is* certainly an issue if it acts as a drag on the local economy. Dartford is already a serious bottleneck which causes the Thames to act as a dividing wall in the local area, the only papering over the cracks has been getting rid of the toll booths.

 

[Wolfie]

Whether one has sympathy or not for motorists isn't really an issue, however increased congestion over Dartford *is* certainly an issue if it acts as a drag on the local economy. Dartford is already a serious bottleneck which causes the Thames to act as a dividing wall in the local area, the only papering over the cracks has been getting rid of the toll booths.

Indeed that is why there is a proposal to spend up to £7Bn on the lower Thames crossing.

 

[ABB125]

There are a number of other issues to be addressed as well. For example, the promoter is seeking powers of compulsory acquisition over HS1 operational land without providing replacement land. If this cannot be resolved then the DCO cannot include the powers and that will generally mean ‘game over’.

Edit: it was funny stumbling over this thread. I had wondered what had happened with these representations after they left my desk a few weeks ago!

Out of interest, what land do they want? Or is that confidential?

 

[Cantab26]

Out of interest, what land do they want? Or is that confidential?

It’s all public, although a bother to find and cross-reference. Several hours of my life I won’t be getting back...

Amongst other things, they are looking to acquire or use:

1. The tunnel portal maintenance compound;
2. Sundry access roads;
3. Parts of Ebbsfleet station; and
4. Half the station car parking.

They are also intending to route construction traffic over a private street owned by HS1, but they haven’t obtained HS1’s consent to this or sought powers to use it compulsorily either.

 

[Taunton]

if the theme park developers are expecting 50,000 visitors a day, most of whom would turn up in a two hour window in the morning, and depart in a two hour window in the evening, and the line can take 10,000 passengers an hour, there would be no choice but to object as it would completely trash your business.

C'mon, what percentage of the visitors would come by train instead of car - 10%? If you're lucky. Of course, the proponents have to pretend they all will, otherwise they will never get planning permission.

 

[BluePenguin]

C'mon, what percentage of the visitors would come by train instead of car - 10%? If you're lucky. Of course, the proponents have to pretend they all will, otherwise they will never get planning permission.

A large amount. Train will be the only viable way of conveying such a significant number of people. Discourage car use by running shuttle buses and not providing parking. Otherwise the Dartford crossing and A2 would be constantly grid locked. The roads will simply not cope

How many foreign tourists bring a car with them to London? Not many theme park enthusiasts drive either

 

[ABB125]

It’s all public, although a bother to find and cross-reference. Several hours of my life I won’t be getting back...

Amongst other things, they are looking to acquire or use:

1. The tunnel portal maintenance compound;
2. Sundry access roads;
3. Parts of Ebbsfleet station; and
4. Half the station car parking.

They are also intending to route construction traffic over a private street owned by HS1, but they haven’t obtained HS1’s consent to this or sought powers to use it compulsorily either.

Nothing important then!

A large amount. Train will be the only viable way of conveying such a significant number of people. Discourage car use by running shuttle buses and not providing parking. Otherwise the Dartford crossing and A2 would be constantly grid locked. The roads will simply not cope

Back to normal then...

How many foreign tourists bring a car with them to London? Not many theme park enthusiasts drive either

They'd much rather be driving the rollercoaster!

 

[Taunton]

A large amount. Train will be the only viable way of conveying such a significant number of people. Discourage car use by running shuttle buses and not providing parking. Otherwise the Dartford crossing and A2 would be constantly grid locked. The roads will simply not cope

How many foreign tourists bring a car with them to London? Not many theme park enthusiasts drive either

I wonder what percentage go to Legoland or Thorpe Park by train.

 

[Mikey C]

Granted, jobs will be provided but who says the locals will wish to work at the resort? The owners may find better suited candidates from further afield employ them instead anyway

In addition, the opening of the resort will inevitably lead to house and rent prices rising. So unless the wages paid are particularly high then these "hundreds of jobs" will not be of any interest at all. Applicants will probably come from the various Medway towns, if there are any.

Thorpe Park and Chessington World of Adventures for example. What proof do we have that majority of staff are all local people living around Chertsey, Chessington and not further afield from Surrey?

Curious logic, I imagine plenty of people in Dartford, Northfleet, Gravesend would be interested in the work. NW Kent isn't Surrey

And if people travel from Strood or Gillingham, well so what. It's a shorter commute than the one to Cannon Street

 

[SynthD]

Lego land has notably poor public transport, I’d like to hear how that got through. Thorpe park has a lot of its visitors in coaches. So the lesson for this new site is - shuttles and TfL buses from multiple train lines, good coach parking, bad car parking. I hear there’ll be a river pier, maybe a pedestrian and cycle river crossing to Grays.

 

[Non Multi]

I wonder what percentage go to Legoland or Thorpe Park by train.

Neither of those resorts are within short walking distance from a railway station. You'd need to use a bus or taxi to complete the journey.

Lego land has notably poor public transport, I’d like to hear how that got through.

Windsor Safari Park went bust after the early 1990s downturn.

Double decker route 703 runs between Bracknell, Legoland, Windsor, Slough and Heathrow. They often run duplicates when Legoland is busy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Neither of those resorts are within short walking distance from a railway station. You'd need to use a bus or taxi to complete the journey.

There's a reasonably well-used shuttle bus from Staines to Thorpe Park.

 

[BluePenguin]

There's a reasonably well-used shuttle bus from Staines to Thorpe Park.

+1

Everyone my age travels to Thorpe Park using this bus

 

[cle]

Chessington South may as well be dedicated, it’s that close and used for that purpose. 2tph to Waterloo via Wimbledon and CJ all week. Good enough service.

 

[Bald Rick]

C'mon, what percentage of the visitors would come by train instead of car - 10%? If you're lucky. Of course, the proponents have to pretend they all will, otherwise they will never get planning permission.

It’s all in the application, including an extensive transport assessment, all 416 pages of it.

So the lesson for this new site is - shuttles and TfL buses from multiple train lines, good coach parking, bad car parking. I hear there’ll be a river pier, maybe a pedestrian and cycle river crossing to Grays.

There’s going to be a people mover system, from Ebbsfleet, via the car parks / bus and coach terminal, and the resort hotels to the front door. But, critically, this doesn’t serve Swanscombe on the North Kent Line.

 

[Mikey C]

Neither of those resorts are within short walking distance from a railway station. You'd need to use a bus or taxi to complete the journey.

Windsor Safari Park went bust after the early 1990s downturn.

Double decker route 703 runs between Bracknell, Legoland, Windsor, Slough and Heathrow. They often run duplicates when Legoland is busy.

Safari parks, by their nature, don't tend to be near railway stations!

You just don't get that amount of space near towns

 

[NoRoute]

Not many theme park enthusiasts drive either

What? Look at Alton Towers, it's out in the countryside, the vast majority of theme park enthusiasts will be driving to it. Same for many other theme parks.

 

[Bald Rick]

What? Look at Alton Towers, it's out in the countryside, the vast majority of theme park enthusiasts will be driving to it. Same for many other theme parks.

If there were 2 stations a mile or so from the front door of Alton Towers, each with 4 trains an hour to a nearby big city, I’m sure lots of people would get the train there.

No doubt people will drive to the London Resort, but plenty will get the train too.

 

[BluePenguin]

What? Look at Alton Towers, it's out in the countryside, the vast majority of theme park enthusiasts will be driving to it. Same for many other theme parks.

Point taken, I was referring to the ones based in the Home Counties. No question any theme park enthusiasts based up north will drive or have their mate “be a good lad” and take them

 

[Ianno87]

Point taken, I was referring to the ones based in the Home Counties. No question any theme park enthusiasts based up north will drive or have their mate “be a good lad” and take them

Apart from Blackpool Pleasure Beach.

 

[MotCO]

Is the issue on HS1 line or terminal capacity? If the latter (at St Pancras), could the trains terminate at Stratford where there are connections via the Jubilee or National Rail. Or would there be too many conflicting paths when the trains change direction, or is there no suitable pointwork?

 

[BluePenguin]

Theoretically yes, the Eurostar platforms at Stratford Intl could be used to terminate at. I was there earlier today and noticed connecting tracks exist between the fast and platform lines. I’ve never seen these used before though.

Video of Class 395 Javelin arriving at Stratford International. The disused Eurostar platform can clearly be seen on the right. Connecting tracks exist making these platform accessible in both directions, although these are largely out of use

 

[Mikey C]

Is the issue on HS1 line or terminal capacity? If the latter (at St Pancras), could the trains terminate at Stratford where there are connections via the Jubilee or National Rail. Or would there be too many conflicting paths when the trains change direction, or is there no suitable pointwork?

Stratford International is a trek (or a DLR ride) from the main Stratford station, so not at all convenient for passengers