A Thousand Train Coaches are to be Scrapped

[jopsuk]

I notice he's posted and fled... perhaps the lack of agreement with his point of view scared him off?

 

[starrymarkb]

the Battery idea wouldn't work. Unless you want 4-16 hour charge stops!

 

[yorksrob]

the Battery idea wouldn't work. Unless you want 4-16 hour charge stops!

Still a way to go on that one then

 

[tbtc]

the Battery idea wouldn't work. Unless you want 4-16 hour charge stops!

Yeah, that'd be a long delay:

"we are sorry to announce that this service has been temporarily delayed whilst we recharge the battery for the next few hours"

 

[sprinterguy]

Yeah, that'd be a long delay:

"we are sorry to announce that this service has been temporarily delayed whilst we recharge the battery for the next few hours"

"We apologise for the continued delay to this service, would any passenger who happens to be carrying an extension cable please report to the guard at the rear of this train, as the lead on the train charger is too short to reach the plug socket. Passengers are advised to bring a good book when travelling with Duracell Trains in the future."

Raises a question though; just how do you charge the train if it runs out of juice away from the power supply? I think this idea needs refining a bit...
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EDIT: Switched brain on and realised that an electric vehicle running out of battery power away from a charging point is exactly the same as an internal combustion engine vehicle running out of fuel between petrol stations. Doh.

 

[yorksrob]

Well, you never know. I'm sure I remember seeing something about a battery powered car on Tomorrows World once

 

[sprinterguy]

Well, you never know. I'm sure I remember seeing something about a battery powered car on Tomorrows World once

You’re right, to be honest battery powered transport is a fairly feasible proposition, with the number of battery powered cars running around. The idea of a battery powered vehicle running out of electricity away from a recharging point is exactly the same as a normal car running out of petrol away from a petrol station really: It happens occasionally, but is a rare occurrence. The only difference is that the “fuel” in this case is the energy stored in the battery instead of a tank full of a combustible liquid. The same rules apply regarding rate of fuel consumption linked to rate of acceleration, weight, sustained speed, etc.

Just me being sceptical of a newer technology. Realistically the disadvantages and risks of running out of energy with a battery powered vehicle are no different to running out of fuel with a standard internal combustion engine.

Silly question in the first place really: I'll try and engage my brain before typing in the future!

 

[yorksrob]

You’re right, to be honest battery powered transport is a fairly feasible proposition, with the number of battery powered cars running around. The idea of a battery powered vehicle running out of electricity away from a recharging point is exactly the same as a normal car running out of petrol away from a petrol station really: It happens occasionally, but is a rare occurrence. The only difference is that the “fuel” in this case is the energy stored in the battery instead of a tank full of a combustible liquid. The same rules apply regarding rate of fuel consumption linked to rate of acceleration, weight, sustained speed, etc.

Just me being sceptical of a newer technology. Realistically the disadvantages and risks of running out of energy with a battery powered vehicle are no different to running out of fuel with a standard internal combustion engine.

Silly question in the first place really: I'll try and engage my brain before typing in the future!

You're quite right though. They've been going on about fuel cells and the like since I was at school, so I suspect powering a train for a whole diagram is still a long way off (like a lot of things on Tomorrows World ). It'd be interesting to see if it ever does come about though.

 

[sprinterguy]

You're quite right though. They've been going on about fuel cells and the like since I was at school, so I suspect powering a train for a whole diagram is still a long way off (like a lot of things on Tomorrows World ). It'd be interesting to see if it ever does come about though.

Yeah it’s the range the batteries can provide power for that’s the major limiting factor: With the current level of technology, you’re going to need a lot of battery packs to keep a three or four carriage train going for a diagram that could be perhaps 600 miles long. The storage capabilities of batteries just aren’t efficient enough at the moment to allow that sort of operation.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, if anyone remembers the Battery Multiple Unit that used to run on Deeside, I don't think that was entirely successful. Not sure how long it took to recharge, but the experiment certainly didn't go any further than one unit. As for the A-Stock, I quite like them because they have comfortable, sprung seats and a lot of room inside. Not tried the S-Stock yet, but they seem far more like urban metro units than suburban trains. Still, one day Chiltern will be electrified, probably with overhead wires, so I expect we will see dual-system suburban units supplementing the S-Stock, hopefully complete with gangway connections.

 

[tbtc]

"We apologise for the continued delay to this service, would any passenger who happens to be carrying an extension cable please report to the guard at the rear of this train, as the lead on the train charger is too short to reach the plug socket. Passengers are advised to bring a good book when travelling with Duracell Trains in the future."

Maybe clockwork trains is the way forward?

Passengers might be asked to get out and turn the key if they want to reach their destination

 

[starrymarkb]

"We apologise for the continued delay to this service, would any passenger who happens to be carrying an extension cable please report to the guard at the rear of this train, as the lead on the train charger is too short to reach the plug socket. Passengers are advised to bring a good book when travelling with Duracell Trains in the future."

Raises a question though; just how do you charge the train if it runs out of juice away from the power supply? I think this idea needs refining a bit...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Switched brain on and realised that an electric vehicle running out of battery power away from a charging point is exactly the same as an internal combustion engine vehicle running out of fuel between petrol stations. Doh.

Not entirely - with an IC engined car you walk to the nearest petrol station with a Jerry Can - fill it and return, pour into tank and go (pre modern engines) - with an electric car you are looking at recovery unless you can find a socket to charge for 24 hours.*

I know Tesla say you can charge their car in 4 hours. True, but you need a huge **** off socket (with apologies to Eddie Izzard) connected to a three phase supply (415V!) that Tesla come and fit at your house!

 

[fgwrich]

Of course the 1938 tube stock on the Isle of Wight will need replacing soon, but it will have to be the smaller sized deep level tube stock which replaces it. I gather that the 1973 tube stock on the Piccadilly Line is being considered as replacement.

Well they were in consideration for a potential moove to the isle of wight, but thatll be a long time yet to come, as TFL Have of course now cancelled the Piccadilly Line Fleet Upgrade/Replacement program...

No reason other than money as to why Stagecoach couldnt surely tag along on a already exsisting tube stock order such as the new 2009 Stock for the Victoria line?

 

[yorksrob]

Well, if anyone remembers the Battery Multiple Unit that used to run on Deeside, I don't think that was entirely successful. Not sure how long it took to recharge, but the experiment certainly didn't go any further than one unit. As for the A-Stock, I quite like them because they have comfortable, sprung seats and a lot of room inside. Not tried the S-Stock yet, but they seem far more like urban metro units than suburban trains. Still, one day Chiltern will be electrified, probably with overhead wires, so I expect we will see dual-system suburban units supplementing the S-Stock, hopefully complete with gangway connections.

Thanks for that. I wasn't aware of any such experiment to build a battery powered multiple unit.

 

[tom1649]

Well they were in consideration for a potential moove to the isle of wight, but thatll be a long time yet to come, as TFL Have of course now cancelled the Piccadilly Line Fleet Upgrade/Replacement program...

No reason other than money as to why Stagecoach couldnt surely tag along on a already exsisting tube stock order such as the new 2009 Stock for the Victoria line?

I'm sure Stagecoach would love new rolling stock for the Island Line, but as you say money is going to be an increasing problem. Of course, 1967 Stock now being withdrawn from the Victoria Line could be a possibility. They'd have to have their ATO equipment removed of course, but they are still about 30 years newer than the 1938 stock and built from aluminium rather than steel.

Surely the 1972 stock on the Bakerloo should be replaced before the Piccadilly stock anyway. It is far more worn out and tatty looking. The refurbishment of the Piccadilly stock a decade ago made an astonishing improvement to the interiors and they still seem to run very smoothly.

 

[fgwrich]

I'm sure Stagecoach would love new rolling stock for the Island Line, but as you say money is going to be an increasing problem. Of course, 1967 Stock now being withdrawn from the Victoria Line could be a possibility. They'd have to have their ATO equipment removed of course, but they are still about 30 years newer than the 1938 stock and built from aluminium rather than steel.

Surely the 1972 stock on the Bakerloo should be replaced before the Piccadilly stock anyway. It is far more worn out and tatty looking. The refurbishment of the Piccadilly stock a decade ago made an astonishing improvement to the interiors and they still seem to run very smoothly.

True - But London Underground have made it pretty clear that the Bakerloo is the last of all the tube lines to get upgraded - both signalling & rolling stock, so you’ll have a long while to go before that line see's any full on Investment - 2017 - was the minimum date quoted i think.

Though i do agree that you could try to remove the ATO on the Ex Vic stock, give them a refresh and an underfloor upgrade and there you go...Though if the money was there, id love to see a new-build of the Vic 2009 stock on the island (with bigger windows though!) The acceleration of those things is brilliant!

Mind You - There's always one idea you do go along with to charge the batteries up and still remain on the move!

Just convert at least 1 to 2 coaches to include a Mobile Gym, Modify enough bikes & rowing machines (Rowing Machines could provide the free air-con too!) Stick some loud and rather odd Gym Music Mashups on and you could attract a new market to work! Those who want to cycle and take the train!

"Could the Cyclists in Coach 1 Please Cycle faster as we are approaching the next hill"

 

[starrymarkb]

1967 and 72 stock isn't suitable for Network Rail use anyway, the biggie being their lack of cab side doors, meaning at a signal check the driver would have to either use the front door, or open one of the double doors in the passenger saloon

 

[yorksrob]

1967 and 72 stock isn't suitable for Network Rail use anyway, the biggie being their lack of cab side doors, meaning at a signal check the driver would have to either use the front door, or open one of the double doors in the passenger saloon

We've got loads of units like this up here, and we don't seem to have any problems with it. Perhaps this is one of those requirements which might end up being done away with in the bonfire of the regulations!

 

[starrymarkb]

You do, the Sprinters and Pacers in the West are the same, however these have grandfather rights, as stock new to the mainline the tube stock would have to comply

 

[Crossforth]

is it not to do with the fact that you need to have a door that passengers aren't allowed to use whilst on a third rail network? hence why SWT 158s and 159s have a door at one end that's not allowed to be used by passengers

 

[ukrob]

is it not to do with the fact that you need to have a door that passengers aren't allowed to use whilst on a third rail network? hence why SWT 158s and 159s have a door at one end that's not allowed to be used by passengers

142s, 156s and 158s all run over third rail around Hunts Cross, none of which have crew doors.

There might be different arrangements in place though as it is only a short stretch.

 

[starrymarkb]

With the SWT stuff it is a hangover from NSE days, NSE wanted it off limits to passengers similarly the 442s leading door would lock out, SWT have just continued with that

 

[tom1649]

You do, the Sprinters and Pacers in the West are the same, however these have grandfather rights, as stock new to the mainline the tube stock would have to comply

The 1972 stock already runs along the main line though to Harrow and Wealdstone along NR metals. It even made it as far as Watford Junction when there was still a service. I guess this benefits from grandfather rights too?

I guess the Island Line's 1938 stock will have to hang on for a few more years then. Unless they decide to bend the rules just to keep the line open.

 

[SignalEngineer]

Where is the money going to come from for these batteries, the electrification, the staff retraining, the route clearances and I'm sure there will be other expenses. Where is the money coming from?

Don't forget other modifications to the underground trains to make them suitable to operate on Network Rail infrastructure: eg AWS, TPWS, Radio system (GSM-R,CSR or NRN). This involves putting the equipment around the trian, under it, and then putting all the neccesary controls on the driver's panel.... I can imagine ergonomics, driver acceptance, and then having to run all these wires around the existing cabling without damaging it...

Having said that... this may be a crazy idea too... but what about using them as carriages for loco hauled stock.... but again... it's not the most comfortable ride anyway for long distance travel... Another thing. During the winter... they are freezing cold inside at night when at every stop all the doors open (even on a peak hour service in the winter, it starts to get cold after Harrow, and even before that later in the night).

 

[asylumxl]

I think they should be melted down and the metal used to make new carriages .

 

[Chris L]

Thanks for the discussion
Been trying to get a word in, but so many good responses
Its been edit edit edit …

No I’m not from the Mail
Just floating a different idea or 2

A Thousand Coaches
That is more than the entire Northern and ATW fleets
And these fleets have the most Pacer Units
I am sure that replacing the Pacers should be a priority.
Replacing them with Electrics would be preferable.

While the A trains are old – they could originally do 70 mph
I still say they would be better than the pacers. – on Safety as well
And perhaps better than overcrowded trams to Altrincham and Bury
Lines formerly worked by 504 & 505 EMUs - with many more seats.

As noted – the D trains are newer.
But I think they have smaller wheels and are not as fast.
And the C Stock is geared down
But they would be suitable for many routes, away from the main lines.
I think some did originally have door buttons

Tripstops were adopted by LT after success on the North Eastern Railway
Even the Flying Scotsman of the time was fitted.

In a few years we may all be driving Electric Cars
But there is no need to Electrify All the Roads
And there could never be enough roads built
for us all to drive our electric cars into the City.

So Railways will continue to be increasingly important.
Batteries will become lighter, more efficient, and less expensive.
And can already charge at a fast rate. – if the power is there.

Of course – new coaches would be better…£££
But If we cant use the As Cs & Ds
Then we need all the EMUs we can get
508s especially – what became of these that went south
or are there any more of other classes we could have ?

Thanks
Said before RETB – I’ll keep on taking the tablets

 

[90019]

In a few years we may all be driving Electric Cars
But there is no need to Electrify All the Roads
And there could never be enough roads built
for us all to drive our electric cars into the City.

Personally, I seriously doubt it, simply because of the limitations and inefficiencies of batteries, even if we keep developing them, I don't think we'll get ones that are small enough and last long enough whilst being able to be charged quickly enough to make electric cars a viable option for a lot of people before better methods of fueling them come about.
Although, on the other hand, Renault's system, (currently only in France, IIRC, and I can't remember if they've started it yet) where you just swap the batteries for charged ones when they run out, may make it more viable, though I don't think it'll be enough.

Electric cars make sense for shorter journies, and I think that if you live in the city, it would work to have an electric car for getting around the city in, and for longer journies either having a second car or renting one when needed. But I think that for a lot of people, internal combustion is still the only real option.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

And please bear in mind that one of the reasons quoted for reducing their top speed from 70mph was to make them last longer...

 

[Snapper]

While the A trains are old – they could originally do 70 mph I still say they would be better than the pacers. – on Safety as well
And perhaps better than overcrowded trams to Altrincham and Bury
Lines formerly worked by 504 & 505 EMUs - with many more seats.

How is the A stock safer than Pacers?

Pacers may not be popular in some circles but they are a 'go anywhere' train. Their recent service in Devon has proved how useful they can be and transferring them there hasn't stopped dramatic passenger growth on the branches they've been used on.

The issue is that suggesting anything is fine.The hard bit is coming up with a practical solution that's not only feasible but also cost effective.

Creating a new large 3-rd rail network just to give some old life-expired trains a few more years in service really doesn't make sense. Especially when you consider the fact that the money spent doing it would be better spent buying new EMUs and infilling a few 25kv schemes to create a standard electrified network which would have the benefit of allowing existing DMUs to be cascaded elsewhere.

This idea fails on all counts.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

1967 and 72 stock isn't suitable for Network Rail use anyway, the biggie being their lack of cab side doors, meaning at a signal check the driver would have to either use the front door, or open one of the double doors in the passenger saloon

The roll-out of GSM-R will eliminate that problem.

 

[ukrob]

To clarify, he is suggesting taking 50 year old electric trains which are wider than ANY mainline train, and putting them onto diesel routes.

I'm finding it hard to take the suggestion seriously.