Could ScotRail 170/3s move to Northern?

[507021]

I'm very keen to stress this is a rumour, but a friend at Northern Trains has told me they've heard from another colleague that ScotRail's 170/3s are moving to Northern.

Despite it being a rumour, they've generally been reliable in the past so I thought I'd share it here just in case anyone else has heard about it.

 

[43102EMR]

I'm very keen to stress this is a rumour, but a friend at Northern Trains has told me they've heard from another colleague that ScotRail's 170/3s are moving to Northern.

Despite it being a rumour, they've generally been reliable in the past so I thought I'd share it here just in case anyone else has heard about it.

I’m surprised they weren’t part of the original batch to move down - also if anymore were to be released from SR wouldn’t they move to EMR to prevent the need for more of Southern’s 171s?

 

[superkev]

I'm very keen to stress this is a rumour, but a friend at Northern Trains has told me they've heard from another colleague that ScotRail's 170/3s are moving to Northern.

Despite it being a rumour, they've generally been reliable in the past so I thought I'd share it here just in case anyone else has heard about it.

Interesting 170/3s are all 3 car I believe. According to Wikipedia Scotrail a have just 4 class 170/3s so perhaps they could spare them.
K

 

[507021]

I’m surprised they weren’t part of the original batch to move down - also if anymore were to be released from SR wouldn’t they move to EMR to prevent the need for more of Southern’s 171s?

Apparently they're for the Nottingham-Leeds route, but again, only a rumour at this stage.

I don't know the full details for EMR's fleet plan, so can't comment whether they'd potentially need more 171s in the future.

 

[43102EMR]

Apparently they're for the Nottingham-Leeds route, but again, only a rumour at this stage.

I don't know the full details for EMR's fleet plan, so can't comment whether they'd potentially need more 171s in the future.

Maybe it’s a temporary arrangement to cover the 195 shortfall given the increased May timetable?

They are due 12 from Southern once they get replacement stock for the Uckfield branch, but for more information on that see the EMR Class 170 thread.

 

[507021]

Maybe it’s a temporary arrangement to cover the 195 shortfall given the increased May timetable?

They are due 12 from Southern once they get replacement stock for the Uckfield branch, but for more information on that see the EMR Class 170 thread.

From what I was told, they'd be transferring for the Leeds-Nottingham service although my friend didn't go into any detail beyond that.

I'll ask her next time I speak to her and see if she's been able to find out anything else.

 

[grangergranger]

Maybe it’s a temporary arrangement to cover the 195 shortfall given the increased May timetable?

They are due 12 from Southern once they get replacement stock for the Uckfield branch, but for more information on that see the EMR Class 170 thread.

Not to get too Speculative away from topic, but I wonder how it would work with Leeds platform 17 being too short??
Anyone know the exact length??
I've got 105m
That's barely enough for a 3 car 150 & 2 car (158, 170 or 195).

 

[northernchris]

Not to get too Speculative away from topic, but I wonder how it would work with Leeds platform 17 being too short??
Anyone know the exact length??
I've got 105m
That's barely enough for a 3 car 150 & 2 car (158, 170 or 195).

At the moment it shouldn't be an issue, as both the local services via Castleford which use 17a could use platform 16 as there's no westbound TPEs at those times. If the pre-Covid TPE timetable resumes it could cause a bit of a headache though! That being said, if the 4 170s move from Scotrail could this just be temporary to cover the 195 issue, as the standard timetable sees the Leeds - Nottingham interlinking with the Leeds - Lincoln

 

[_toommm_]

From what I was told, they'd be transferring for the Leeds-Nottingham service although my friend didn't go into any detail beyond that.

I'll ask her next time I speak to her and see if she's been able to find out anything else.

There might be some truth in it. There’s been 170s on (what I presume are) driver training runs from Sheffield to Nottingham recently.

 

[Halish Railway]

Not to get too Speculative away from topic, but I wonder how it would work with Leeds platform 17 being too short??
Anyone know the exact length??
I've got 105m
That's barely enough for a 3 car 150 & 2 car (158, 170 or 195).

Unless the Leeds (Bradford in the future) to Nottingham service will finally be diverted via Wakefield Westgate, meaning that it doesn’t have to use platform 17.

 

[ScotRail158725]

I'm very keen to stress this is a rumour, but a friend at Northern Trains has told me they've heard from another colleague that ScotRail's 170/3s are moving to Northern.

Despite it being a rumour, they've generally been reliable in the past so I thought I'd share it here just in case anyone else has heard about it.

This rumour is nothing other than platform end guess gen...

 

[skyhigh]

There might be some truth in it. There’s been 170s on (what I presume are) driver training runs from Sheffield to Nottingham recently.

170s may be covering that route, but that's to do with their allocation moving to Hull. No new 170s are joining the fleet.

This rumour is nothing other than platform end guess gen...

Indeed. I happened to have the head of fleet on my train yesterday, so I said I'd heard this rumour. He said he hadn't! So unless he hasn't been told yet...

 

[Killingworth]

Indeed. I happened to have the head of fleet on my train yesterday, so I said I'd heard this rumour. He said he hadn't! So unless he hasn't been told yet...

Almost certainly only a rumour, however, in a senior position I would choose my words carefully, especially if I were working on a deal. I might truthfully say that I hadn't heard a rumour, until that moment, of course, when I would have!

In wartime they used to say that careless talk costs lives. In peacetime it might cost deals.

 

[Mollman]

There might be some truth in it. There’s been 170s on (what I presume are) driver training runs from Sheffield to Nottingham recently.

Are they Northern 170s? I know EMT's 170s have been testing at least as far as Chesterfield recently.

 

[43102EMR]

Are they Northern 170s? I know EMT's 170s have been testing at least as far as Chesterfield recently.

Yeah that’ll be EMR’s 170s - they’ve been doing crew training runs along the Erewash Valley Line recently.

 

[Adam0984]

Are they Northern 170s? I know EMT's 170s have been testing at least as far as Chesterfield recently.

Yeah northern have been utilising the spare paths on the erewash, spare units and spare drivers to do some 170 training

 

[_toommm_]

Are they Northern 170s? I know EMT's 170s have been testing at least as far as Chesterfield recently.

Yeah Northern 170s, appearing as such on RealTimeTrains.

 

[Halifaxlad]

I'm all for more 170s but I wish they would use them between Colne and Preston and between Preston and Blackpool North!

 

[Clansman]

The question is, why on earth would ScotRail allow them to be spared? What is in it for ScotRail?

Their lease covers them for a few more years so anything at this stage sounds like pure wibble just to make the numbers add up so that ScotRail don't have any 170s other than dash 4** variants.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I'm all for more 170s but I wish they would use them between Colne and Preston and between Preston and Blackpool North!

Why would they? Colne to Preston is not a heavily used line and already sees booked 156s as opposed to the (subjective but certainly according to my opinion) inferior 150s dominating most of the surrounding routes, and Preston to Blackpool North is electrified.

 

[Kite159]

At least Nottingham - Leeds are more suitable for 170s than a Harrogate loop stopper where it spends all day in 1st gear due to the low speed.

And does give a boost of number of seats compared to the current 158s (and a massive boost compared to a 2 coach 195)

 

[Halifaxlad]

The question is, why on earth would ScotRail allow them to be spared? What is in it for ScotRail?

Judging by the state of a 158 shortly after Northern acquired from Scotrail I suspect some heavy maintenance.

At least Nottingham - Leeds are more suitable for 170s than a Harrogate loop stopper where it spends all day in 1st gear due to the low speed.

And does give a boost of number of seats compared to the current 158s (and a massive boost compared to a 2 coach 195)

But what would you put on the Harrogate line instead ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

But what would you put on the Harrogate line instead ?

195s. Their transmission makes them ideal for local stopping services (EMU like acceleration and more efficient); they'd be better using 158s and 170s on the long distance stuff instead.

 

[Kite159]

195s. Their transmission makes them ideal for local stopping services (EMU like acceleration and more efficient); they'd be better using 158s and 170s on the long distance stuff instead.

I agree, 195s would be ideal for the Harrogate line, either as 3 coaches or pairs of 2 coach units.

 

[Clansman]

Judging by the state of a 158 shortly after Northern acquired from Scotrail I suspect some heavy maintenance.

The 158s Northern received from ScotRail were all of the tatty 8 units ScotRail received from SWT & Wessex, all of which arrived in an absolute abismal state. First ScotRail never helped things by patching them up as opposed to fully refurbing them (I bet the 158 you are talking about was one of the ex SWT units, 158786 or 158789, which were in the worst state). By the time Abellio came along they were already earmarked for being released so there was no point investing any more in them other than what was needed to keep them on the rails.

In that regard, the 170s were always different.

Besides, I don't think that ScotRail would release any units on the basis that they need maintenance unless they were damaged (like the 156 involved in flooding that was initially written off but purchased by Brodies and leased back to ScotRail).

Remember that ScotRail plan to have a particular number of DMUs like every other TOC. Every single one counts and every single one is needed. They have no reason to release more 170s so long as they still plan to run a full timetable post covid, no matter how bad the situation is for Northern.

 

[skyhigh]

I agree, 195s would be ideal for the Harrogate line, either as 3 coaches or pairs of 2 coach units.

The recent hiccup might have delayed things slightly, but they're coming...

 

[waverley47]

I had a catch up with a couple of old friends who work at TS control this evening. They haven't heard anything, but I'll be meeting up with a couple of the Haymarket drivers for a pint or two tomorrow afternoon, so I'll ask around.

It might be that this is happening, but personally I doubt it. What to SR get out of it, apart from saving a few quid short term but less space long term? It would make sense to Northern or EMR to take them, but I doubt ScotRail would want to give them up.

 

[43096]

I had a catch up with a couple of old friends who work at TS control this evening. They haven't heard anything, but I'll be meeting up with a couple of the Haymarket drivers for a pint or two tomorrow afternoon, so I'll ask around.

I'm not sure why you would think anyone in control or a driver could give definitive information on fleet plans, but still...

 

[waverley47]

I'm not sure why you would think anyone in control or a driver could give definitive information on fleet plans, but still...

I'm not sure who else would know in all honesty. These things tend to filter down through the grapevine rather quickly.

Additionally, scotrail is run quite closely with NR and Transport Scotland. The decision to remove and buy new fleets for example has been a TS decision, as they give the funding (mark 2 coaches and 153s went through TS control before ever going public). Given the closeness between the different Scottish organisations, it would be more surprising if TS control didn't know.

The drivers I admit wouldn't be likely to know, but a lot of drivers can be reasonably well informed so I'll ask anyway.

 

[IanXC]

Almost certainly only a rumour, however, in a senior position I would choose my words carefully, especially if I were working on a deal. I might truthfully say that I hadn't heard a rumour, until that moment, of course, when I would have!

In wartime they used to say that careless talk costs lives. In peacetime it might cost deals.

Why can I not help myself but quote Yes Minister?

Bernard Woolley : [Discussing possible reasons for the Prime Minister's early retirement] Minister, I've heard something quite different.
James Hacker : What?
Bernard Woolley : That there is £1 million worth of diamonds from South Africa in a Downing Street safe, but of course it's only a rumour.
James Hacker : Is that true?
Bernard Woolley : Oh, yes.
James Hacker : So, there ARE all those diamonds in Downing Street!
Bernard Woolley : Are there?
James Hacker : You just said there were.
Bernard Woolley : No, I didn't.
James Hacker : Yes, you did! You said you'd heard this rumour, I said is it true, you said yes!
Bernard Woolley : I said yes, it was true that it was a rumour.
James Hacker : You said you heard it was true!
Bernard Woolley : No, I said it was true that I heard it!
Annie Hacker : I'm sorry to cut into this important discussion, but do you believe it?
James Hacker : I believe I heard it. Oh, about the diamonds. No.
Annie Hacker : Is it impossible?
James Hacker : No, but it's never been officially denied. First rule in politics: never believe anything until it's officially denied.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Apr 2021 ==

I'm not sure who else would know in all honesty. These things tend to filter down through the grapevine rather quickly.

Additionally, scotrail is run quite closely with NR and Transport Scotland. The decision to remove and buy new fleets for example has been a TS decision, as they give the funding (mark 2 coaches and 153s went through TS control before ever going public). Given the closeness between the different Scottish organisations, it would be more surprising if TS control didn't know.

The drivers I admit wouldn't be likely to know, but a lot of drivers can be reasonably well informed so I'll ask anyway.

But who is "TS control"? Surely you're referring to ScotRail Control?