What more could be done to crack down on fare evasion?

[father_jack]

A lot now is usually short offers on mobile tickets or multiple refunds and barriers are quite ineffective against this kind of fraud.

Yeah @RPI completely correct. Where I work there's loads of mobile tickets from one stop away to get out the gate going on with a lot having touched in in London on a debit/credit card. Also the "pay when challenged" brigade is huge since the pandemic and they know that there is an inconsistency in checking so they arrive at a gate and buy from the previous stop. I have found though BTP while challenging for the reason for travel, to be good at least extracting the true journey details. And yes in some cases father jack "rough justice" was delivered in the form of full price rather than cheap days or supersavers being sold, much to the disgust of the traveller. And that was before they got a £220 fine from BTP and were then made buy a ticket back and were sent back !!!

 

[Neo9320]

I started commuting from my current station about 5 years ago. No barriers and 1m+ passengers a year for what is a small commuter town between Liverpool and Manchester. I can count on one hand the number of checks at the station. It's presumed most are traveling to a station with checking/ barriers but that is where the game gets played. Regular checking catches most but it's a numbers game. Cost v recoupment. You can never justify spending more than you recover, however more random checks on and off train and in and outside of peak particularly targeted at problem areas will be proportional and successful

I like this

 

[Grumpy Git]

Always makes chuckle when the guard walks into the carriage and asks passengers who boarded at the last stop to volunteer for a ticket check.

No such messing when I've travelled in Switzerland.

 

[Horizon22]

It's properly particularly an issue in London metro world where it's either DOO / non-commerical guards and station coverage is patchy and no gatelines or short coverage. Add into that the revenue element is normally done with roaming Revenue teams who may or may not be on in the particular area and that's where you get issues. Now these are mainly short journeys granted as London terminals coverage is generally spot on. Many people in my youth used to "chance it" on SWR because of the short journey time and small chance of a check.

There is also an element of short-ticketing and again some TOCs are worse than this (looking at you Southeastern...) than others although you look at the disputes forum and a lot of people are stung for this on Southeastern and other commuter TOCs. Although on regional trains, this is also a problem.

I also don't want to dig up the DOO dispute, but either you need a) good gateline provision throughout the day until reasonably late at night (again where feasible to install - if they are installed, staff them!) / b) an "OBS type" role on trains dealing with tickets on metro routes. c) significant strengthening of roaming revenue teams. There's no easy fix - it's almost a cultural / social thing. Once people start to see standards being more visibly enforced, fare evasion will naturally decline. The irony is if that does happen, then the very people you've employed to stop it might be seen as redundant because fare evasion is so low.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==

Always makes chuckle when the guard walks into the carriage and asks passengers who boarded at the last stop to volunteer for a ticket check.

No such messing when I've travelled in Switzerland.

Just out of interest, how do they stop people showing their tickets about 6 times?

 

[yorkie]

Always makes chuckle when the guard walks into the carriage and asks passengers who boarded at the last stop to volunteer for a ticket check.

No such messing when I've travelled in Switzerland.

They check everyone's ticket between every stop, even those already checked?

Or they all have excellent photographic memories of every passenger on their train?

 

[Grumpy Git]

It's properly particularly an issue in London metro world where it's either DOO / non-commerical guards and station coverage is patchy and no gatelines or short coverage. Add into that the revenue element is normally done with roaming Revenue teams who may or may not be on in the particular area and that's where you get issues. Now these are mainly short journeys granted as London terminals coverage is generally spot on. Many people in my youth used to "chance it" on SWR because of the short journey time and small chance of a check.

There is also an element of short-ticketing and again some TOCs are worse than this (looking at you Southeastern...) than others although you look at the disputes forum and a lot of people are stung for this on Southeastern and other commuter TOCs. Although on regional trains, this is also a problem.

I also don't want to dig up the DOO dispute, but either you need a) good gateline provision throughout the day until reasonably late at night / b) an "OBS type" role on trains dealing with tickets on metro routes. c) significant strengthening of roaming revenue teams. There's no easy fix - it's almost a cultural / social thing. Once people start to see standards being more visibly enforced, fare evasion will naturally decline. The irony is if that does happen, then the very people you've employed to stop it might be seen as redundant because fare evasion is so low.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==



Just out of interest, how do they stop people showing their tickets about 6 times?

Guards in Switzerland always have a "proper" punch which validates the ticket with a unique stamp.

In the UK its usually a bookies biro or if you're lucky a marker pen.

 

[Horizon22]

Guards in Switzerland always have a "proper" punch which validates the ticket with a unique stamp.

In the UK its usually a bookies biro ir if you're lucky a marker pen.

Yep fair enough. When I worked on-board very few people did the physical stamp because it does increase the time. Maybe only 10-20 seconds, but with a pretty full coach that's maybe one whole coach you can't do before the next stop. Still have to remember people.

 

[yorkie]

Guards in Switzerland always have a "proper" punch which validates the ticket with a unique stamp.

That doesn't answer the question. Do they check each passenger between every stop or do they have excellent superhuman memories?

 

[SuspectUsual]

Question for the guards/conductors amongst us. Do you always report people you catch without a ticket or the means to pay, or do you ever show discretion based maybe on their circumstances? I’m genuinely intrigued

 

[Horizon22]

Question for the guards/conductors amongst us. Do you always report people you catch without a ticket or the means to pay, or do you have show discretion based maybe on their circumstances? I’m genuinely intrigued

What do you mean by "report"? If you mean to BTP / Control / Revenue I think that would be unlikely unless you somehow knew the individual was a serial offender.

I guess this varies by TOC and whether its a Penalty Fare area. Some will ask them to buy a ticket as you don't always know why they may not have one. Others might be given a Penalty Fare.

 

[Chriso]

When I travelled in Switzerland I noticed every time their was a guard change they would do another full check. From Visp to Geneva I had to show my ticket 3 times if my memory is correct

 

[SuspectUsual]

What do you mean by "report"? I guess this varies by TOC and whether its a Penalty Fare area. Some will ask them to buy a ticket as you don't always know why they may not have one. Others might be given a Penalty Fare.

I used what I thought was a generic term because of the differences between TOCs, penalty fare areas etc. Would “take further action against” be better?

 

[yorkie]

If they don't have means to pay, some staff will record their details while others will instruct them to leave the train

 

[Bald Rick]

Simple for me.

Make it easier to buy a ticket, have more barriers at the busier stations, and more on train checks by RPIs, particularly in. Known hotspot areas / hot spot times.

If you are caught without a ticket for the journey you are making, minimum £100 fine. Fine doubles for each repeat offence (within a given time frame).

Different arrangements to apply for issues where you have a ticket for the journey, but not the right one (eg routeing issues, not on the booked service, etc)

 

[skyhigh]

Question for the guards/conductors amongst us. Do you always report people you catch without a ticket or the means to pay, or do you ever show discretion based maybe on their circumstances? I’m genuinely intrigued

Depends on the circumstances. If they're willing to offer up details and have a form of ID, I'd complete an Unpaid Fares Notice. If they won't offer details it's a report form. Now we have an app method of reporting I pretty much always do now - it's easy to submit a report with a description, date and time of travel, and locations travelled too and from. If they make a habit of it, they will be noticed. I don't make a habit of removing people from the train unless they're abusive (especially late at night).

One of the most effective deterrents is regular ticket checks both on trains and stations, im finding more and more these days that "fare evasion" is no longer simply travelling without a ticket, thats actually quite rare, in fact, the other day I actually had a good old "bog hopper" (someone hiding in the toilet with no ticket or money!) And it was almost quite refreshing to have a simple case to deal with, when I got him out he put his hands up and handed me his drivers licence for the subsequent details taking! A lot now is usually short offers on mobile tickets or multiple refunds and barriers are quite ineffective against this kind of fraud.

I've found this too. You get the hotspots where people will pay when challenged (school trains where they're packed and most conductors won't make their way through, for example), but outside of that it's pretty much only dodgy tickets or an outright refusal to pay these days. For the dodgy tickets aspect, people don't seem to realise how much we can get from mobile tickets...

 

[Aictos]

Simple for me.

Make it easier to buy a ticket, have more barriers at the busier stations, and more on train checks by RPIs, particularly in. Known hotspot areas / hot spot times.

If you are caught without a ticket for the journey you are making, minimum £100 fine. Fine doubles for each repeat offence (within a given time frame).

Different arrangements to apply for issues where you have a ticket for the journey, but not the right one (eg routeing issues, not on the booked service, etc)

Couldn't agree more, one problem at the moment is TOCs using agency staff who if they encounter people without a ticket they can't do anything but stand aside. My view is staff on gatelines should be fully trained up to be able to issue tickets, PFs or MG11s so revenue staff regardless of where they are working can issue those items.

 

[RPI]

Question for the guards/conductors amongst us. Do you always report people you catch without a ticket or the means to pay, or do you ever show discretion based maybe on their circumstances? I’m genuinely intrigued

I'm neither a guard nor conductor (my username gives away what I do ha) but yes, if someone is genuinely in the sh*t, they come and find me and are open and honest they are far likely just to be issued with an Unpaid Fare Notice (UFN) to simply pay the fare due, if they mess around then they will be reported to the prosecutions team.

Of interest to some, GWR have just taken on six additional RPI'S based at Taunton, these are entirely new jobs which were signed off by the DfT (they were planned before covid), a long story but they come under the "Central" region so will primarily be working to Bristol/South Coast down to Pompey and Southampton. Its an 18 month experiment which will be permanent should it be successful

 

[Grumpy Git]

That doesn't answer the question. Do they check each passenger between every stop or do they have excellent superhuman memories?

I have no idea how they do it, but they are very efficient.

I once got charged the full fare extra on a Spiez to Milan Transalpino (about £70 at the time) as we'd brought the ticket on a Swiss Family Card the day before, but I'd accidentally left the card in the hotel on the day of travel and the guard wasn't impressed.

I was able to get this refunded the following day when I went to the station in Interlaken with all the relevant documents.

 

[RPI]

Depends on the circumstances. If they're willing to offer up details and have a form of ID, I'd complete an Unpaid Fares Notice. If they won't offer details it's a report form. Now we have an app method of reporting I pretty much always do now - it's easy to submit a report with a description, date and time of travel, and locations travelled too and from. If they make a habit of it, they will be noticed. I don't make a habit of removing people from the train unless they're abusive (especially late at night).


I've found this too. You get the hotspots where people will pay when challenged (school trains where they're packed and most conductors won't make their way through, for example), but outside of that it's pretty much only dodgy tickets or an outright refusal to pay these days. For the dodgy tickets aspect, people don't seem to realise how much we can get from mobile tickets...

Very much so, I spend a lot of time now submitting Data Protection Act (DPA) forms to retailers such as trainline in order to investigate an offenders previous travel irregularities, rest assured we don't just do this willy nilly, we actually have to have evidence of previous offences in order to do this, for the first time in nearly 20 years being in Revenue Protection it feels as though the fare evaders aren't one step ahead (at least on our patch) and they need to get lucky every time, we only have to get lucky once

 

[LittleAH]

I don't think there's a major issue. There is a bit of an issue that is bigger in some places than others. You only hear about negatives - I can tell you that *most* people are travelling, or at least trying to (given the state of the ticketing regime), in a legal or honest fashion. There are of course hotspots in places but you do mostly hear about negatives.

Given a few hundred penalty fares were issued on TPE last week with patronage well down - I'd say it's a pretty major issue.

 

[RPI]

Given a few hundred penalty fares were issued on TPE last week with patronage well down - I'd say it's a pretty major issue.

It doesn't help that in some areas there have been 12 months of no ticket checks, Scotland will be awful when they finally start checking again, the amount of confrontation from people that will have had over a years free travel!

 

[dk1]

Always makes chuckle when the guard walks into the carriage and asks passengers who boarded at the last stop to volunteer for a ticket check.

No such messing when I've travelled in Switzerland.

I found this something that happens a lot on Northern operated services. Quite rare at many other TOCs.

 

[Grumpy Git]

I found this something that happens a lot on Northern operated services. Quite rare at many other TOCs.

Same thing on EMT yesterday between MAN and LPY and barely a glance at the ticket, although the guard was very appreciative when I told him his announcements on the PA were inaudible (and he did turn up the volume for subsequent announcements).

 

[Kite159]

It doesn't help that in some areas there have been 12 months of no ticket checks, Scotland will be awful when they finally start checking again, the amount of confrontation from people that will have had over a years free travel!

Similar to Wales I would imagine.

I guess the extra GWR RPIs will be useful on those services formed of multiple turbos. RPI in the front unit pouncing on anybody travelling between stations with no barriers

 

[LowLevel]

Given a few hundred penalty fares were issued on TPE last week with patronage well down - I'd say it's a pretty major issue.

Short term opportunism coming to end - it doesn't take long to come back. I am selling plenty of tickets but equally most people do have them. Experience last time we stopped suggests most people start paying again quickly enough.

Same thing on EMT yesterday between MAN and LPY and barely a glance at the ticket, although the guard was very appreciative when I told him his announcements on the PA were inaudible (and he did turn up the volume for subsequent announcements).

I do say tickets from - but I do usually have a rough idea who I need to see You tend to find guards who have been booked for having too many confrontations in the past do that - gets you some sales without hassle. Sad but it is what it is.

Always appreciate a tip about the PA - it can be particularly useless when 2 units are coupled up. Resetting the circuit breakers in all the cabs usually sorts it out.

 

[30907]

That doesn't answer the question. Do they check each passenger between every stop or do they have excellent superhuman memories?

"jemand zugestiegen?" (anyone just got on?) was the traditional question in the German speaking world - but of course routine ticket checks are increasingly confined to longer-distance services with fewer stops.

 

[jon0844]

The wide gates on a Cubic gateline might as well not have paddles as they're so easy to push open that regular fare evaders just walk through like they aren't there. It makes a mockery of having gates as they no longer seem to serve as barriers whatsoever. It's also dead easy, if somewhat degrading, to slide under them.

 

[Watershed]

The wide gates on a Cubic gateline might as well not have paddles as they're so easy to push open that regular fare evaders just walk through like they aren't there. It makes a mockery of having gates as they no longer seem to serve as barriers whatsoever. It's also dead easy, if somewhat degrading, to slide under them.

It still serves as a disincentive to chancing it for most people. Even if some belong to the 'pay if challenged' brigade.

 

[Kite159]

The wide gates on a Cubic gateline might as well not have paddles as they're so easy to push open that regular fare evaders just walk through like they aren't there. It makes a mockery of having gates as they no longer seem to serve as barriers whatsoever. It's also dead easy, if somewhat degrading, to slide under them.

Or gates on a side entrance which are only manned by a help point from the main gateline.

Saw 3 people on Sunday jumping over the gates at Luton on the platform 5 side.

 

[Starmill]

The wide gates on a Cubic gateline might as well not have paddles as they're so easy to push open that regular fare evaders just walk through like they aren't there. It makes a mockery of having gates as they no longer seem to serve as barriers whatsoever. It's also dead easy, if somewhat degrading, to slide under them.

If ticket gates were there to act as physical barriers they would be full height and run down to the floor. They're not because they're mainly just there as a visual deterrent - you know your destination is gated, so you buy a ticket before boarding. Anyone more determined than that to fare evade will likely need police or byelaw enforcement action against them. Most gatline staff won't endanger themselves by physically holding a person back, and sensibly so.