What more could be done to crack down on fare evasion?

[londonteacher]

I'm not an expert and don't claim to be but it appears that there is a major issue with fare evasion. I'm not saying that it's new because I am fully aware that it's not. But, what more could be done to stop this?

We have a few threads on here where people openly admit to travelling either without a correct ticket or without one completely and they seem to think that as its the first time they were caught they should get away with it. This suggests they have done this multiple times so the lost revenue must be high!

There are no easy solutions as ticket barriers are expensive and require them to be banned (I think so anyway) and the railway simply can't afford it!

What do you think?

 

[LowLevel]

I don't think there's a major issue. There is a bit of an issue that is bigger in some places than others. You only hear about negatives - I can tell you that *most* people are travelling, or at least trying to (given the state of the ticketing regime), in a legal or honest fashion. There are of course hotspots in places but you do mostly hear about negatives.

 

[robbeech]

Who suffers the most from it? Is it the TOCs or is it the fare paying passengers? The system is setup to make a profit and it does so with fare evasion taking place so whilst the TOCs lose out each time someone doesn't pay for a ticket its setup so they do make money. Of course, in many cases (lets ignore the last year) they still make a loss but it isn't necessarily due to fare evasion. I should think fare evasion costs are quite small overall. Tesco (other supermarkets are available) base their product prices with loss from damage and theft in mind.

And when it comes to not having a ticket itself, who actually suffers the most then?
Bob doesn't want to buy a ticket, he smashes the ticket machine up and he gets on the train and hides in the toilet, he goes 4 stops and gets off the train, at the station there is a revenue block. Bob threatens to "knock em out" and walks off. Bob doesn't pay for his ticket that day, or the next day, or the day after.

Sally wants to buy a ticket from the ticket machine but Bob has smashed it to bits, she gets on the train at the back and tells the guard she couldn't buy a ticket because the machine is broken. The guard says he doesn't have time to sell a ticket but it is fine because she can buy a ticket at her destination and explain to them that the machine was broken. Sally is relieved and carries on her way. At the destination she is stopped by revenue teams who do not believe Sally that the machine is broken. They report her for prosecution and she ends up settling out of court for £350. When questioned, the guard on the train conveniently has no recollection of Sally asking and their employer profits greatly.

We see time and time again that there is little to nothing staff can do with people determined to evade the fares for risk of violence. As such it is ignored and fare prices are adjusted to compensate. In the meantime the easy pickings, even when the passenger has done no wrong are quite lucrative.

 

[Hadders]

I'm not an expert and don't claim to be but it appears that there is a major issue with fare evasion. I'm not saying that it's new because I am fully aware that it's not. But, what more could be done to stop this?

We have a few threads on here where people openly admit to travelling either without a correct ticket or without one completely and they seem to think that as its the first time they were caught they should get away with it. This suggests they have done this multiple times so the lost revenue must be high!

There are no easy solutions as ticket barriers are expensive and require them to be banned (I think so anyway) and the railway simply can't afford it!

What do you think?

Why do you think there is a major issue with fare evasion? We all have stories to tell of people we've seen avoiding fares, it's very visible when it happens but that doesn't mean there is a major issue. We tend not to notice the millions of journeys where passengers pay the correct fare.

In terms of how you deal with evasion it is a balancing act between the cost of collecting the last bit of revenue and the value of that revenue. Say employing additional revenue staff on a particular line costs £5 million per year. Unless the collect at least £5 million pounds worth of additional revenue then you might as well not bother.

The best thing that can be done is to create the feeling of a secure, safe environment with regular revenue checks to act as a deterrent. Target known hot spots. Barriers have a part to play in busy locations but they're not always the answer.

 

[Wolfie]

Why do you think there is a major issue with fare evasion? We all have stories to tell of people we've seen avoiding fares, it's very visible when it happens but that doesn't mean there is a major issue. We tend not to notice the millions of journeys where passengers pay the correct fare.

In terms of how you deal with evasion it is a balancing act between the cost of collecting the last bit of revenue and the value of that revenue. Say employing additional revenue staff on a particular line costs £5 million per year. Unless the collect at least £5 million pounds worth of additional revenue then you might as well not bother.

The best thing that can be done is to create the feeling of a secure, safe environment with regular revenue checks to act as a deterrent. Target known hot spots. Barriers have a part to play in busy locations but they're not always the answer.

Re your middle para l would add though that if becomes obvious that there is no effective enforcement then fare dodging will increase as more people think "why should l buy a ticket if no one else is" and before you know it that £5M is £10M+....

 

[Hadders]

Re your middle para l would add though that if becomes obvious that there is no effective enforcement then fare dodging will increase as more people think "why should l buy a ticket if no one else is" and before you know it that £5M is £10M+....

I agree which is why I wrote in my 3rd paragraph:

The best thing that can be done is to create the feeling of a secure, safe environment with regular revenue checks to act as a deterrent. Target known hot spots. Barriers have a part to play in busy locations but they're not always the answer.

 

[Kite159]

Barriers have their uses but are not the end all solution (considering twice last week a guard caught someone trying to dodge the fare having boarded at Clapham Junction).

Also the downside of barriers is they can tell you a ticket is valid at that particular station, but not necessarily for the train you will board (buying a ticket to the first station to bypass the barriers)

 

[matt_world2004]

5%-20% of passengers do not have a valid ticket depending on security at stations and other features.

Fare evasion could be pretty low if every train had a commercial guard on board. Each station was gated and staffed. But would it be financially worth it for at most a 15% increase in revenue on the worst lines.

 

[Hadders]

The fares structure also has a part to play. We often wonder why an Off Peak Day Return is often priced at 10p more than the Off Peak Day Single, but revenue protection is the answer.

Take a return journey from Stevenage to London. There are six opportunities to check tickets:

- Stevenage ticket barriers outward journey
- Onboard outward journey
- Kings Cross ticket barriers outward journey
- Kings Cross ticket barriers return journey
- Onboard return journey
- Stevenage ticket barriers return journey

Just one ticket check at any of these six points will result in the price of at least the single fare being paid and recovering all but 10p of the full cost of the return journey.

This all starts to fall down with the move to single leg pricing but things like maximum fares provide some mitigation.

 

[Wolfie]

I agree which is why I wrote in my 3rd paragraph:

The best thing that can be done is to create the feeling of a secure, safe environment with regular revenue checks to act as a deterrent. Target known hot spots. Barriers have a part to play in busy locations but they're not always the answer.

Fair comment

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Apr 2021 ==

The fares structure also has a part to play. We often wonder why an Off Peak Day Return is often priced at 10p more than the Off Peak Day Single, but revenue protection is the answer.

Take a return journey from Stevenage to London. There are six opportunities to check tickets:

- Stevenage ticket barriers outward journey
- Onboard outward journey
- Kings Cross ticket barriers outward journey
- Kings Cross ticket barriers return journey
- Onboard return journey
- Stevenage ticket barriers return journey

Just one ticket check at any of these six points will result in the price of at least the single fare being paid and recovering all but 10p of the full cost of the return journey.

This all starts to fall down with the move to single leg pricing but things like maximum fares provide some mitigation.

I hadn't thought of it like that. Clever. Of course the people disadvantaged are those who for whatever reason genuinely only need to go one way.

 

[Hadders]

I hadn't thought of it like that. Clever. Of course the people disadvantaged are those who for whatever reason genuinely only need to go one way.

Same is true of Off Peak Returns usually being £1 more than the single. I agree about those who only need to make a single journey being disadvantaged though.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Sometimes the deterrent doesn't work. Many fare evaders will often accept a penalty fare for say £40 already knowing what they have saved by not getting caught all week adds up to far more. These are the chancers,those who will pay if challenged but will otherwise stare out of the window.
The trouble now is that 'duty of care' prevents random eviction of troublsome non-payers. Being thrown off the last train for a walk home was usually a good deterrent.

 

[tbtc]

Fare evasion could be pretty low if every train had a commercial guard on board

That's what I'd prioritise - more revenue-focussed staff on board trains - checking tickets but also being visible to deter anti-social behaviour and to assist with passengers (rather than the current situation on many lines, where the only member of staff in the passenger section of the train is also dealing with announcements/ doors/safety etc.

This isn't a DOO argument - I'm suggesting that there are a number of lines that would benefit from having a member of staff foley focussed on passengers (whether there's another person dealing with announcements/ safety./ doors and also available to spend part of their time dealing with revenue checks etc) - I think that there are some key bits of lines where it'd be better to have such revenue staff focussed - maybe shuttling between two key stations on a particular route - so they revenue focussed person spends their shift doing something like Sheffield - Chesterfield and boards the next northbound service from Chesterfield to Sheffield - over and over - keep an element of "random" to it, but with enough chance of getting caught each week that it becomes much cheaper for regular passengers to just buy a ticket

The problem at the moment is that you can go a long time without having a ticket checked - but specialist staff who only check tickets would make people think twice.

 

[Alex27]

Travelling on a local bus today I noticed a sign about the bus companies 'standard fare' which was £100 or £50 if paid within 7 days if you could not produce a ticket. Now that sounds like a pretty good deterrent to me

I have to say from personal experience I would say that there is a fairly sizeable minority that fare evade, at least in my area, ironically enough it is usually for relatively cheap journeys rather than expensive ones. Most of the time it seems to be chancers but I think if I were to do more about anything in particular it would be people pushing through the gate. Overall a very small minority but very obvious to other passengers, so I feel like they should be made an example of (and no I don't know how, as unfortunately I don't think stocks outside the station entrance would be allowed)

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Anyone else remember the posters at stations that had a list of names and addresses of people convicted of fare evasion?

Probably not worth the hassle these days of people complaining, although convictions are public record, along with your name and address in open court, and theoretically the SJPN process.

 

[yorkie]

That's what I'd prioritise - more revenue-focussed staff on board trains - checking tickets but also being visible to deter anti-social behaviour and to assist with passengers (rather than the current situation on many lines, where the only member of staff in the passenger section of the train is also dealing with announcements/ doors/safety etc.

I think local services should either be like London Overground, with staff at every station, ticket barriers and regular spot checks OR like the Strathclyde electrics, with friendly & proactive staff constantly patrolling the trains checking/issuing tickets.

I'd much prefer the latter of course, but I have to be realistic that the former is more suited to really busy routes with high footfalls in urban areas.

 

[MCSHF007]

Always annoys me that many otherwise decent folk who complain vociferously about shoplifting/burglary etc. are quite happy to indulge in/condone fare evasion/avoidance. Theft is theft.

 

[43066]

I think local services should either be like London Overground, with staff at every station, ticket barriers and regular spot checks OR like the Strathclyde electrics, with friendly & proactive staff constantly patrolling the trains checking/issuing tickets.

I'd much prefer the latter of course, but I have to be realistic that the former is more suited to really busy routes with high footfalls in urban areas.

Staff on the train would be cheaper than staff at every station too, albeit with no station staff you can’t have ticket barriers.

My local TOC (Southeastern) manages to have the worst of both worlds; nobody on the trains and nobody at many of the stations! It’s essentially a free railway for many people.

 

[yorkie]

Always annoys me that many otherwise decent folk who complain vociferously about shoplifting/burglary etc. are quite happy to indulge in/condone fare evasion/avoidance. Theft is theft.

Fare evasion is different to theft and is treated more seriously actually, for example it is rare that someone who steals a low value item from a shop would be prosecuted but a person who is found dodging an equivalent value rail fare is much more likely to be, and be issued a harsher penalty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==

My local TOC (Southeastern) manages to have the worst of both worlds; nobody on the trains and nobody at many of the stations! It’s essentially a free railway for many people.

Yes Southeastern are very poor for this.

SWR inner suburbans with non-commercial Guards are also very poor for ticket checks and again many unstaffed stations.

I have done many journeys with no checks, and not just short ones; I recall a couple of years ago doing Stafford to somewhere like Baillieston, using 3 Virgin Trains with the majority of the journey in 1st class. No check anywhere until the Scotrail train, when my ticket was checked within seconds of me boarding the train, as the doors were closing. And that is (was) an absolutely normal experience; it did not surprise me one bit.

 

[mrmartin]

Always annoys me that many otherwise decent folk who complain vociferously about shoplifting/burglary etc. are quite happy to indulge in/condone fare evasion/avoidance. Theft is theft.

They are clearly different though, IMO. Fare evasion doesn't 'take' something off someone else, unlike burglary and shoplifting. It's more like software/video piracy in that way than shoplifting, as also I think a fair proportion of fare dodgers (not all though!) have no means to pay the fares, so there was no real revenue to lose in the first place.

I think long term fare evasion will basically go away with technology, assuming people accept facial recognition as the primary way for paying for things. There will be cameras at the exit/entrance of all stations, and you'll just get sent a bill for your travel. Don't pay it and you'll basically be automatically sent to court, like congestion charge for cars.

 

[43066]

SWR inner suburbans with non-commercial Guards are also very poor for ticket checks and again many unstaffed stations.

The logic seems to be that most journeys will start/finish at a London terminal or major interchange with ticket barriers, so people bunking fares between minor stations isn’t worth cracking down on. I suppose that makes sense from the point of view of efficiently deploying limited resources, but it sends out quite the wrong message.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==

It's more like software/video piracy in that way than shoplifting, as also I think a fair proportion of fare dodgers (not all though!) have no means to pay the fares, so there was no real revenue to lose in the first place.

Ha! You’d be surprised. A non-railway friend of mine who earns very good money bunks fares regularly (even more so since he’s become aware of my priv discounts).

I also used to work with a bloke who was a senior tax panther at a Big 4 accountancy firm (earning £1m+) who used to boast about bunking his fare in from Harpenden by getting off at West Hampstead Thameslink and tapping in there.

Fare dodging is a product of being a bit tight, coupled with a low risk of being caught, and is done by people who wouldn’t be seen dead shoplifting etc.

 

[matt_world2004]

The logic seems to be that most journeys will start/finish at a London terminal or major interchange with ticket barriers, so people bunking fares between minor stations isn’t worth cracking down on. I suppose that makes sense from the point of view of efficiently deploying limited resources, but it sends out quite the wrong message.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==



Ha! You’d be surprised. A non-railway friend of mine who earns very good money bunks fares regularly (even more so since he’s become aware of my priv discounts).

I also used to work with a bloke who was a senior tax panther at a Big 4 accountancy firm (earning £1m+) who used to boast about bunking his fare in from Harpenden by getting off at West Hampstead Thameslink and tapping in there.

Fare dodging is a product of being a bit tight, coupled with a low risk of being caught, and is done by people who wouldn’t be seen dead shoplifting etc.

Fare evasion is done by two groups of people
1.) people who are two poor or have poor financial management to pay the fare in question

2.)Those who do it for the thrill and risk of getting caught., Or believing their are getting one up on the system or because they feel "justified" because their taxes are paying for it. Or because of the dehumanisation of those who work in the industry through the press (eg tabloid stories during strike times)

 

[Butts]

Fare evasion is different to theft and is treated more seriously actually, for example it is rare that someone who steals a low value item from a shop would be prosecuted but a person who is found dodging an equivalent value rail fare is much more likely to be, and be issued a harsher penalty.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Apr 2021 ==


Yes Southeastern are very poor for this.

SWR inner suburbans with non-commercial Guards are also very poor for ticket checks and again many unstaffed stations.

I have done many journeys with no checks, and not just short ones; I recall a couple of years ago doing Stafford to somewhere like Baillieston, using 3 Virgin Trains with the majority of the journey in 1st class. No check anywhere until the Scotrail train, when my ticket was checked within seconds of me boarding the train, as the doors were closing. And that is (was) an absolutely normal experience; it did not surprise me one bit.

If you were to make that journey in the current climate you may find exactly the opposite to be true. Scotrail may have created a problem for themselves in the future by effectively abandoning onboard checks for over a year during the current pandemic. It could be argued that the volume of traffic has not up until recently warranted checks, but a lot of people using non-barriered entry and exit points have become accustomed to free travel.

Personally I favour the ungated regular spot check / big fine approach to the problem. It seems to work in a lot of Europe. (or does it ?)

Have any other Countries got higher rates of defaulters than us and what if anything do they do about it ?

If we want to be even more radical we could go the way of Luxembourg and make all public transport including Railways free of charge.

 

[dk1]

All though gateline has been well covered in my area throughout the pandemic it's very pleasing to see revenue duties being carried out again onboard albeit on a voluntary basis. This will fully return from 17th May assuming all goes well with the easing of restrictions.

 

[SuspectUsual]

Fare evasion is done by two groups of people
1.) people who are two poor or have poor financial management to pay the fare in question

2.)Those who do it for the thrill and risk of getting caught., Or believing their are getting one up on the system or because they feel "justified" because their taxes are paying for it. Or because of the dehumanisation of those who work in the industry through the press (eg tabloid stories during strike times)

I think you omit a third group, which is probably the biggest of the three - those who do it because they can. They’ve either realised that enforcement on their particular route is minimal to non-existent, or seen / been told about others avoiding payment, and decide to join in. Up here it happens loads, particularly on short journeys between stations that are unstaffed (or outside ticket office opening hours). Hebden Bridge to and from Todmorden it’s rife in the evening

 

[Neo9320]

One thing that can be done is educating station staff (team) I traveled a few weeks back from a station that there is no office or machine, arrived at Bristol temple meads and was accused of fare evasion. Penalty fare was threatened, I felt like I had to explain the system to the young man who was trying to penalise me. I’m making a similar trip today and have booked online just to make sure.

 

[RPI]

One of the most effective deterrents is regular ticket checks both on trains and stations, im finding more and more these days that "fare evasion" is no longer simply travelling without a ticket, thats actually quite rare, in fact, the other day I actually had a good old "bog hopper" (someone hiding in the toilet with no ticket or money!) And it was almost quite refreshing to have a simple case to deal with, when I got him out he put his hands up and handed me his drivers licence for the subsequent details taking! A lot now is usually short offers on mobile tickets or multiple refunds and barriers are quite ineffective against this kind of fraud.

 

[Neo9320]

I guess it depends on where you’re heading to, eg heading to a station with no barriers from a station with no barriers, you’re in luck! I’m not condoning the behaviour, but certain TOCs are not vigilant

 

[Dr Day]

There is also a subtle distinction between 'revenue protection' and 'revenue collection' as well as 'fare evasion' and 'fare avoidance'. Things are changing, but in many areas the culture of 'pay on the train' remains engrained.

 

[AGH]

I started commuting from my current station about 5 years ago. No barriers and 1m+ passengers a year for what is a small commuter town between Liverpool and Manchester. I can count on one hand the number of checks at the station. It's presumed most are traveling to a station with checking/ barriers but that is where the game gets played. Regular checking catches most but it's a numbers game. Cost v recoupment. You can never justify spending more than you recover, however more random checks on and off train and in and outside of peak particularly targeted at problem areas will be proportional and successful