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Wheelchair passenger not allowed to board

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Greenback

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Any demands that wer emade were as a result of tonyaryan bumping this thread to inform everyone that he had had an email confimring he was in the right, which he offered to provide to anyone interested. Given his previous postings, I am not surprised he was taken up on this offer!

Whether the email is conclusive proof one way or the other is debatable for reasons we've already gone into. The last thing we need to do is to entertain 'others' by sniping at each other!
 
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blue sabre

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Any demands that wer emade were as a result of tonyaryan bumping this thread to inform everyone that he had had an email confimring he was in the right, which he offered to provide to anyone interested. Given his previous postings, I am not surprised he was taken up on this offer!

Whether the email is conclusive proof one way or the other is debatable for reasons we've already gone into. The last thing we need to do is to entertain 'others' by sniping at each other!

Sorry Sir! TBH you are right, it just seemed like the thread was going to head off in a whole other direction (which in the end it did, just not the one that I thought!) I didn't mean to have a directly at anyone (but admit I kind of did) just some people seemed to say some very silly things. As it turned out the posters I am referring to haven't been involved in this. (so far!)
 

tonyaran

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I am keeping my word and I am providing the letter from Northern Rail I received today. I have not scanned it, as some people might have then said I have doctored it too, but I have taken a high resolution photos using a camera.

I hope NOW someone will believe me.

003.jpg


002.jpg



001.jpg
 

ukrob

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I'm not disputing where the letter came from, but what on earth is that return address about? I have had letters from the York office and they didn't have that return address?
 

Geezertronic

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So Peter mentions that they should have deployed the ramp to allow Qamar to get onto the train but it is strange they don't mention anything about deploying the ramp at Guide Bridge specifically though since that was the issue in the first place rather than actually getting onto the train? Me thinks Northern have definitely played the corporate card and given Qamar what he wants just to get rid of him.

I am definitely going to email Peter T Myers regardless of whether he will reply or not, amongst other things to advise him his letter has ended up on a private forum (I have downloaded copies ;))
 

90019

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So Peter mentions that they should have deployed the ramp to allow Qamar to get onto the train but it is strange they don't mention anything about deploying the ramp at Guide Bridge specifically though since that was the issue in the first place rather than actually getting onto the train? Me thinks Northern have definitely played the corporate card and given Qamar what he wants just to get rid of him.

It is clearly avoiding the point about Guide Bridge to try and get a positive result.

I note it also points out that he was advised about the next train being a 323 which he could take safely, even though he has denied this happened.
 

tonyaran

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So Peter mentions that they should have deployed the ramp to allow Qamar to get onto the train but it is strange they don't mention anything about deploying the ramp at Guide Bridge specifically though since that was the issue in the first place rather than actually getting onto the train? Me thinks Northern have definitely played the corporate card and given Qamar what he wants just to get rid of him.

I am definitely going to email Peter T Myers regardless of whether he will reply or not, amongst other things to advise him his letter has ended up on a private forum (I have downloaded copies ;))

You are free to do that but I am not sure what it will achieve. I was repeatedly hassled and bullied by some members of this forum in regards to this issue. Many of you were not willing to entertain the idea of a guard (for many a colleague and in the same profession) and no matter what is said and done you will not for one second believe he was in the wrong.

The bottom line is that Northern Rail have done an extensive investigation and found they were incorrect in not allowing me on this train.

The only slight question is wether or not disembarking at Guide Bridge could have been difficult if not impossible. I have, many many times, said to the contrary. I can assure those with doubts that there is no problem and that I have been disembarking at Guide Bridge - at various times of the day - and from all types of trains.

Northern Rail had the opportunity - just like they have written in the letter about the next train being lower to the ground and having easier access - to make it known if there was a problem disembarking at Guide Bridge. They did not meaning there is NO problem. However, to help ease the minds of some of you, I will (the next time I use that train) video myself getting of this exact type of train in question at Guide Bridge. I can not promise this to be anytime soon but I can promise that I will video it whenever I can.

Finally, I would like the sceptics amongst you to let this matter rest and try to refrain from bullying me on this issue. You are though free to discuss the issue but I would like not to be made out as the bad guy here when the baddie in this story has been clearly proven. I have replied and provided everything that you have asked for and I have kept my cool (apart from a couple of instances).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It is clearly avoiding the point about Guide Bridge to try and get a positive result.

I note it also points out that he was advised about the next train being a 323 which he could take safely, even though he has denied this happened.

Please read the letter again. In it there is a following sentence:

However, as stated above, you can travel on all our services; therefore we were incorrect in not letting you board the first train that evening.
 

Chew Chew

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The only slight question is wether or not disembarking at Guide Bridge could have been difficult if not impossible. I have, many many times, said to the contrary. I can assure those with doubts that there is no problem and that I have been disembarking at Guide Bridge - at various times of the day - and from all types of trains.

But, from reading this thread and the one on Digital Spy you have had problems disembarking at this station before, you said it yourself!

Finally, I would like the sceptics amongst you to let this matter rest and try to refrain from bullying me on this issue. You are though free to discuss the issue but I would like not to be made out as the bad guy here when the baddie in this story has been clearly proven. I have replied and provided everything that you have asked for and I have kept my cool (apart from a couple of instances).

Bullying you??
 

90019

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Please read the letter again. In it there is a following sentence:

However, as stated above, you can travel on all our services; therefore we were incorrect in not letting you board the first train that evening.

Please quote from that letter where he has said you are able to safely alight at Guide Bridge.
 

MidnightFlyer

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--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Please read the letter again. In it there is a following sentence:

However, as stated above, you can travel on all our services; therefore we were incorrect in not letting you board the first train that evening.

TRAVEL Doesn't mean able to alight at all stations - Guide Bridge and Hattersley are both examples of stations YOU CANNOT ALIGHT ON. I know you probably never have used Hattersley, but with your disability/wheelchair, it would be, quite simply, impossible
 

First class

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Surely this thread is finished by now?

I personally don't (have to) care about whether Guide Bridge is fully accessible or not. Nobody wants to see a video of you getting off a 323 there either so I wouldn't bother.

My problem with you is that you made out you were being deliberately discriminated against, (which got you the attention), when it was at best a customer service issue.

Why you couldn't write a letter or grab a comments form and deal with it that way is beyond me because you will have gotten the same result that way without backlash against you and without (no doubt) making rail staff less inclined to help you in the future.

Being disabled isn't great, but you've certainly tried to use it to your advantage when complaining. You need to think if that is morally right, and what effect it could have on people's perception of wheelchair users.

Incidentally, the 'disabled map' designed by Northern shows Guide Bridge as a pretty inaccessible station. http://www.northernrail.org/northern/passengercharter/pdfs/Network-Map-DPPP-pdf.gif

Also, have a read of this: http://www.northernrail.org/northern/passengercharter/pdfs/northernrail_dpp_200711.pdf
 
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tonyaran

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But, from reading this thread and the one on Digital Spy you have had problems disembarking at this station before, you said it yourself!



Bullying you??

You still are not getting the jist of this. I have repeated myself so many times but will do once more.

I have never had any problems disembarking from Guide Bridge station during the 6 months that I have used the service to get home from Manchester Piccadilly.

I have used (from what I can recall) two types of trains. An old and new one. The newer ones I have never had any issues with. The older ones (like the one relevant to this instance) I will have used half a dozen times more or less.

99% of the time a single ramp has been used to help me disembark. However, there was an instance when the guard (not the one relevant to the discrimination issue but a different one) tried to use 2 ramps. A longer and shorter ramp. I told him that prior I have only used the one single larger ramp. He tried for a while figuring out how to get both ramps in place but was not able to. He then gave up and placed the one single larger ramp. I had no problem getting down it.

Now many of you still are not wanting to believe this can happen. So to ease your minds I will film myself using the one single larger ramp (if possible) disembarking of this train sometime in the future. Any one of you however is free to arrange a test run earlier, and if you want me to be present, I will not hesitate.

I hope this makes it clear.
 

MidnightFlyer

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an instance when the guard (not the one relevant to the discrimination issue but a different one) tried to use 2 ramps.

See - it's that kind of comment which is why people call you what they do - this clearly isn't a discrimination case.
 

First class

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What discrimination issue???????????????????????


Not letting you get one train because the next one is better suited is quite frankly commendable. I'm sure no guard (would have) wanted you to get hurt.
 

tonyaran

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See - it's that kind of comment which is why people call you what they do - this clearly isn't a discrimination case.

Northern Rail could not find any reason. They have stated I can use all of their services. Then why did the guard not put the ramp down?

He refused without reason. The reason has still not been given because there is no reason. The guard was just not bothered to do the job and did not want the hassle. Leaving it to the next man.

The guard repeatedly ignored my requests of giving me a reason. He had no reason therefore he could not give one. He had the opportunity to provide reason when the video was being filmed. He then had the opportunity to provide a reason when he was called in to give his side of the story. On both ocassions he has not provided a reason.

Now what other reason could the guard have had for not letting me on the train? Bear in mind when answering that he has had the chance of informing his superiors of any previous incidents (with me involved there have been none).

When no other reason can be found, and there geniunly was nothing untoward from my end of apparatus faults from Northern Rail, then it leaves only one reason:

The guard saw me. Realised it would be extra work. Looked at his watch and saw the next train was less than half hour away. Thought he would just tell me NO and I would patiently wait for the next train. And I would have if he had given me a reason. He did not have to justify the reason. He could have have just said to me "I can put the ramp down for you but it might be safer for you to travel on the next train. Safer and easier to get on and off. And it is not that far away."

He could have let me have the option to do so. But he did not and he turned his back at me. He then pointed his fingers at me like I was a child. Down at me. Maybe that is how he tell his children off, if he has any. When he was doing that other passengers were smirking. Me being in a wheelchair meant he did not allow me on the train. That - and all the other things mentioned - are discrimination.
 

GB

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This thread (and the bloke in question) has been given far too much air time already and far too much then what it is worth.

The investigation has concluded and for what ever reason and rightly or wrongly NR have admitted fault. Tonyaryan is never going to convince us that he was in the right and likewise we will never convince him he was wrong.

The original debacle was so long ago now and with the amount of posts that have happened between now and then it is very difficult to keep pace without going over old ground. Keeping this topic going in my opinion is pointless as we are not going to acheive anything more other than to continue arguments.

Surely the best thing to do is lock this thread and let tonyaryan dissappear into obscurity and get back to why we are all here?

In anycase, this will certainly be my last post on the subject!

Sorry to sound all high and mighty but just my opinion.
 

Chew Chew

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The guard saw me. Realised it would be extra work. Looked at his watch and saw the next train was less than half hour away. Thought he would just tell me NO and I would patiently wait for the next train. And I would have if he had given me a reason. He did not have to justify the reason. He could have have just said to me "I can put the ramp down for you but it might be safer for you to travel on the next train. Safer and easier to get on and off. And it is not that far away."

That's an opinion, not fact.

He could have let me have the option to do so. But he did not and he turned his back at me. He then pointed his fingers at me like I was a child. Down at me. Maybe that is how he tell his children off, if he has any. When he was doing that other passengers were smirking. Me being in a wheelchair meant he did not allow me on the train. That - and all the other things mentioned - are discrimination.

If the guard was discriminating you why had he helped you before?

It clearly isn't discrimination.
 

Geezertronic

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Northern Rail could not find any reason. They have stated I can use all of their services. Then why did the guard not put the ramp down?

Northern have not mentioned anything about alighting the train at Guide Bridge


He refused without reason. The reason has still not been given because there is no reason. The guard was just not bothered to do the job and did not want the hassle. Leaving it to the next man.

Still waiting for proof on that. None has been forthcoming, is that just your point of view not fact?


The guard repeatedly ignored my requests of giving me a reason. He had no reason therefore he could not give one. He had the opportunity to provide reason when the video was being filmed.

Who knows what went on before you started filming. Someone (i.e. you) who claims assault deserves to be ignored

He then had the opportunity to provide a reason when he was called in to give his side of the story. On both ocassions he has not provided a reason.

I cannot find anything anywhere that states the guard did or did not give a reason during any interviews with Northern staff. Again is this is your point if view rather than fact?


Now what other reason could the guard have had for not letting me on the train? Bear in mind when answering that he has had the chance of informing his superiors of any previous incidents (with me involved there have been none).

Comment above applies. Only you and the guard really know what went on last time (and there was a last time so you can drop the act - that is my point of view).


When no other reason can be found, and there geniunly was nothing untoward from my end of apparatus faults from Northern Rail, then it leaves only one reason:

The guard saw me. Realised it would be extra work. Looked at his watch and saw the next train was less than half hour away. Thought he would just tell me NO and I would patiently wait for the next train. And I would have if he had given me a reason. He did not have to justify the reason. He could have have just said to me "I can put the ramp down for you but it might be safer for you to travel on the next train. Safer and easier to get on and off. And it is not that far away."

He could have let me have the option to do so. But he did not and he turned his back at me. He then pointed his fingers at me like I was a child. Down at me. Maybe that is how he tell his children off, if he has any. When he was doing that other passengers were smirking. Me being in a wheelchair meant he did not allow me on the train. That - and all the other things mentioned - are discrimination.

Again, your point of view rather than fact. Was you annoyed that other passengers were smirking so you decided to make an example out of the guard?

I consider the discrimination you enacted on the guard to be vastly superior to anything you think you may have gone through. Publishing an uncensored video of him on YouTube was without tact and done with the full knowledge that once you reported this to the press (without giving Northern sufficient time to investigate) the video would be used and distributed by the media. All this for a 20 minute wait.

You are a blagger, plain and simple. I remember you posted on the DS thread about whether you should contact a lawyer probably because you saw £££ in your eyes but only backed down when people started to question why. Then you started going on about disabled rights. I do hope that the disabled community shun you, I know the disabled people I know have.
 

Hobbit Feet

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Come look what I've found and posted in DS......

Edit - It's not a ploy to get you handsome chappies in there. ;)
 

90019

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Northern Rail could not find any reason. They have stated I can use all of their services. Then why did the guard not put the ramp down?

No, they have stated you can travel on all services, not board and alight them.

He refused without reason. The reason has still not been given because there is no reason. The guard was just not bothered to do the job and did not want the hassle. Leaving it to the next man.

The Letter from Northern confirms that it was explained to you about the service 12 minutes later.

The guard repeatedly ignored my requests of giving me a reason. He had no reason therefore he could not give one. He had the opportunity to provide reason when the video was being filmed. He then had the opportunity to provide a reason when he was called in to give his side of the story. On both ocassions he has not provided a reason.

Once again, it has been confirmed by the letter that the reason was explained to you by the guard

Now what other reason could the guard have had for not letting me on the train? Bear in mind when answering that he has had the chance of informing his superiors of any previous incidents (with me involved there have been none).

The reason is that you cannot alight safely from the train at Guide Bridge.

When no other reason can be found, and there geniunly was nothing untoward from my end of apparatus faults from Northern Rail, then it leaves only one reason:

There was a reason found, you have just chosen to completely ignore it and use it as a basis for crying discrimination.

The guard saw me. Realised it would be extra work. Looked at his watch and saw the next train was less than half hour away. Thought he would just tell me NO and I would patiently wait for the next train. And I would have if he had given me a reason. He did not have to justify the reason. He could have have just said to me "I can put the ramp down for you but it might be safer for you to travel on the next train. Safer and easier to get on and off. And it is not that far away."

So you assume that the guard thought that, and consequently, it must be because of your disability and not for any other reason.

He could have let me have the option to do so. But he did not and he turned his back at me. He then pointed his fingers at me like I was a child. Down at me. Maybe that is how he tell his children off, if he has any. When he was doing that other passengers were smirking. Me being in a wheelchair meant he did not allow me on the train. That - and all the other things mentioned - are discrimination.

No.
The extremely one sided video you showed clearly only had the second half of the incident, and this is very obviously only for a reason. You were being very aggressive towards him and shouting after him, even though he has obviously explained to you that he cannot let you on (as confirmed in the letter) which is a perfectly good reason to ignore you.

Despite what you clearly think, in your seemingly deluded mind, that is not discrimination, you just seem to feel the need to victimise yourself and are crying out for sympathy from everyone. You risked someone's livelihood for this, and that makes me sick. As far as I'm concerned you are much less than a man, and that has nothing to do with your disability.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Come look what I've found and posted in DS......

Edit - It's not a ploy to get you handsome chappies in there. ;)

I've just read that, and that's very interesting, I wonder what he has to say for himself about that?

I did notice the lack of an NR logo on the frank and the return address, but assumed it just wasn't something they did, since I haven't had letters from them and don't know their address.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm willing to bet that the next claim made is that Northern must obviously outsource the printing and sending of mail.
 
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tonyaran

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This is what I posted on the other forum regarding Hobbit Feet's accusations. I hope he doesn't crawl under to hide from this.

Seriously. You would think I would go to this length of trouble just to get myself vindicated on this forum?

If I was to 'conjure up' a letter I would have made it very favourable to myself and put a lot of stuff in it.

The letter, which I assure everyone is geniune, and has been sent by Pete Myers. You can ask him. His contact details are on the letter. In fact, I insist. I insist you Hobbit Feet to contact Mr Myers directly and tell him that someone is forging letters from his office and forging his signature. I also insist you to ask him to take action against me. Actually, I challenge you. Go ahead Hobbit Feet back up your words with action.

You really make me laugh, you do!

Outstanding!

Probably nothing better to do in life!
 

Hobbit Feet

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This is what I posted on the other forum regarding Hobbit Feet's accusations. I hope he doesn't crawl under to hide from this.

Seriously. You would think I would go to this length of trouble just to get myself vindicated on this forum?

If I was to 'conjure up' a letter I would have made it very favourable to myself and put a lot of stuff in it.

The letter, which I assure everyone is geniune, and has been sent by Pete Myers. You can ask him. His contact details are on the letter. In fact, I insist. I insist you Hobbit Feet to contact Mr Myers directly and tell him that someone is forging letters from his office and forging his signature. I also insist you to ask him to take action against me. Actually, I challenge you. Go ahead Hobbit Feet back up your words with action.

You really make me laugh, you do!

Outstanding!

Probably nothing better to do in life!

I have responded. I have made nothing up, the company that sent you the envelope does exactly as I linked.

I merely linked the trail.
 

ANorthernGuard

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1st time i've posted in this forum, but as I know the guard in question and have dealt with Qazir before, ill put my 2p in to the equation, at Guide Bridge depending on where the train stops there are 3 main obstacles, 1. the metal bar in front of the steps to the booking office makes it impossible to deploy the ramp simple case of length, 2. the platform is uneven in areas making the ramp "wobble" quite badly and 3. where the seating is also restricts the deployment of the ramp, OFFICIALLY THE RAMP CAN BE USED BUT COMMON SENSE WISE WITH A 142 IT CAN'T !!!! the OP knows this last time he used a ramp on a 142 his Daughter almost fell out of his lap and the guard saved a serious injury (DON'T deny it OP cctv proves this and reports have been filed), on the day that was recorded (illegally i may add, it IS in the railway bye laws) (just ask the RMT) it plainly shows your wife moving your child from your lap at the start of the film, you knew that a 142 was "dodgy" regarding the ramp at Guide Bridge a few guards have mentioned this at Picc to you 323's are lower and a hell of alot more suitable to you, I say to you Sir! that you have not done this for disabled rights, you have done this through your own dislike for people who work in public transport (ask any bus driver or Black Cab around Ashton), the guard HAS NOT been disciplined in fact he is being brought back slowly as due to your callous idiotic disregard for Northern Rails Staffs Safety he has had death threats etc. thrown at him, if you had followed the procedures a few things would have happened....1. an investigation would still have taken place WITHOUT the guards SAFETY being compromised, 2. you would have got a hell of alot more people on your side, 3. you would have got alot more respect,...frankly the disregard you have shown for the railway staff (all TOC's I may add) at Mcr Piccadilly gives all disabled persons a bad name, and all the years I have worked Trains I have never heard of anyone as arrogant as you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Damn that felt good!!
 

tonyaran

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1st time i've posted in this forum, but as I know the guard in question and have dealt with Qazir before, ill put my 2p in to the equation, at Guide Bridge depending on where the train stops there are 3 main obstacles, 1. the metal bar in front of the steps to the booking office makes it impossible to deploy the ramp simple case of length, 2. the platform is uneven in areas making the ramp "wobble" quite badly and 3. where the seating is also restricts the deployment of the ramp, OFFICIALLY THE RAMP CAN BE USED BUT COMMON SENSE WISE WITH A 142 IT CAN'T !!!! the OP knows this last time he used a ramp on a 142 his Daughter almost fell out of his lap and the guard saved a serious injury (DON'T deny it OP cctv proves this and reports have been filed), on the day that was recorded (illegally i may add, it IS in the railway bye laws) (just ask the RMT) it plainly shows your wife moving your child from your lap at the start of the film, you knew that a 142 was "dodgy" regarding the ramp at Guide Bridge a few guards have mentioned this at Picc to you 323's are lower and a hell of alot more suitable to you, I say to you Sir! that you have not done this for disabled rights, you have done this through your own dislike for people who work in public transport (ask any bus driver or Black Cab around Ashton), the guard HAS NOT been disciplined in fact he is being brought back slowly as due to your callous idiotic disregard for Northern Rails Staffs Safety he has had death threats etc. thrown at him, if you had followed the procedures a few things would have happened....1. an investigation would still have taken place WITHOUT the guards SAFETY being compromised, 2. you would have got a hell of alot more people on your side, 3. you would have got alot more respect,...frankly the disregard you have shown for the railway staff (all TOC's I may add) at Mcr Piccadilly gives all disabled persons a bad name, and all the years I have worked Trains I have never heard of anyone as arrogant as you!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Damn that felt good!!

Very nice of you to join us in this conversation. I was about to leave for the day but you coming with this outburst has really made my day.

It seems you know a lot about this. Would you be prepared in joining me for a test run on this type of train disembarking at Guide Bridge. We will once and for all be able to put this matter to rest. Having someon professional like yourself will be very beneficial for this. Once we have done the test we can then provide the findings to Northern Rail and this forum members.

BTW my name is not Qazir. And there has been no instace of my daughter falling and the guard catching her. If there was then it will be on CCTV, the guard concerned will have also reported the instance, and it should have been a primary importance in the findings of Northern Rail.

And for your information I do not reside in Ashton and have never used any cabs from the Ashton area.
 

ANorthernGuard

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over the years "quite a few I may add" I have stopped at Guide Bridge with 142's 150/1 & 150/2 156's and of course 323's the 150's ain't too bad regarding the ramp as its just the standard 1 parter, 156's due to there height can be used but I wouldnt recommend it, 142's as stated in the previous post due to a few issued are not suitable, and surprise surprise 323's are actually pretty perfect (its true), to clarify though Guide Bridge is officially accesible on both the UP & DOWN Platforms just the fact that common sense and Network Rail (Not Northern) do not exist in great amounts
 
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