More units for Northern

[py_megapixel]

I like 350s, but I really don't understand why they're needed on Northern at this point.

 

[Purple Orange]

I like 350s, but I really don't understand why they're needed on Northern at this point.

They aren’t. It would be on place of rather than in addition to. The 350s are not coming to the north, but the 331s and 323s are good enough. What I would like is to see 6-car running as much as possible.

 

[D6130]

I have it from a very reliable source that, following urgent safety checks carried out in conjunction with CAF engineers, Northern have since Easter Sunday temporarily withdrawn 22 units (16 x 195 and 8 x 331), as a result of bogie yaw dampers becoming detached from the bodywork/underframes. Therefore they may well need some extra units - if only for a short time.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have it from a very reliable source that, following urgent safety checks carried out in conjunction with CAF engineers, Northern have since Easter Sunday temporarily withdrawn 22 units (16 x 195 and 8 x 331), as a result of bogie yaw dampers becoming detached from the bodywork/underframes. Therefore they may well need some extra units - if only for a short time.

350s would be no use. The problems will probably be sorted before Northern could train enough crews on any new (to Northern) type of units.

 

[py_megapixel]

350s would be no use. The problems will probably be sorted before Northern could train enough crews on any new (to Northern) type of units.

I imagine the only possible solutions are temporarily getting some more 319s in service (which almost certainly won't happen) or just covering the lack of units with less multiple working and a few cancellations (which I'm fairly sure is what's going to happen because it's the simple solution that they've always taken in the past)

 

[Greybeard33]

There may only be a few routes where double 323s can operate, but as you say double 331s certainly can. The other aspect here is it’s not that 6-car formations are out of the question at most stations, but rather 6-car formations can be accommodated at a quite a lot of stations.

But in any case, if anyone does know how many EMUs (that are SDO compliant) are needed, I’m interested to know.

Well, just as a rough idea for the west side only, the May diagrams have:
26 out of 31 331/0s in traffic, all in double formation. 3 units on exams, 2 stabled.
12 out of 17 323s in traffic. 2 units on exams, 2 away at Wolverton on exams, 1 stabled.
9 out of 15 319s in traffic. 4 units on exams, 2 stabled.

So a total of 21 solo diagrams, all worked by 323s and 319s. When the 15 319s are replaced by 17 ex-WMR 323s, about 30 of the 34 total should be available for traffic, enough to double 9 of those 21 diagrams. If Northern leased the remaining 9 323s, 18 of the 21 could be doubled.

Of course, the May timetable is thinned compared with pre-Covid, because of on-going driver shortages. And the Recovery Task Force timetable recast will likely change the number of diagrams next year (e.g. Alderley Edge services revert to EMUs instead of 769s). While if the 12 4-car 331/1s come back across the Pennines, swapped with some of the 3-car /0s, they will likely work singly.

Lots of variables, but hardly a case for bringing in a fourth type of EMU.

 

[Purple Orange]

Well, just as a rough idea for the west side only, the May diagrams have:
26 out of 31 331/0s in traffic, all in double formation. 3 units on exams, 2 stabled.
12 out of 17 323s in traffic. 2 units on exams, 2 away at Wolverton on exams, 1 stabled.
9 out of 15 319s in traffic. 4 units on exams, 2 stabled.

So a total of 21 solo diagrams, all worked by 323s and 319s. When the 15 319s are replaced by 17 ex-WMR 323s, about 30 of the 34 total should be available for traffic, enough to double 9 of those 21 diagrams. If Northern leased the remaining 9 323s, 18 of the 21 could be doubled.

Of course, the May timetable is thinned compared with pre-Covid, because of on-going driver shortages. And the Recovery Task Force timetable recast will likely change the number of diagrams next year (e.g. Alderley Edge services revert to EMUs instead of 769s). While if the 12 4-car 331/1s come back across the Pennines, swapped with some of the 3-car /0s, they will likely work singly.

Lots of variables, but hardly a case for bringing in a fourth type of EMU.

Thanks for the insight. I agree a fourth type of EMU should not be introduced and we will always see some sort of mix. The 323s may only have a further 5-10 years left given their age, therefore when the time comes are more 331s the best option, or something different? It could be more cascaded stock.

Thinking about it a bit more, although I like 350s, they are unsuitable for the urban commuter services in Manchester & Liverpool. It needs more than 4x20m trains, but 8x20m trains are too much. I certainly think the region needs 6-car trains, with SDO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thinking about it a bit more, although I like 350s, they are unsuitable for the urban commuter services in Manchester & Liverpool. It needs more than 4x20m trains, but 8x20m trains are too much. I certainly think the region needs 6-car trains, with SDO.

6 x 24m = 144m
8 x 20m = 160m

Not much difference.

 

[Purple Orange]

6 x 24m = 144m
8 x 20m = 160m

Not much difference.

True, but the infrastructure isn’t there at some stations.

 

[Nymanic]

6 x 24m = 144m
8 x 20m = 160m

Not much difference.

But still too long for the likes of Oxford Road (most platforms), Deansgate and Salford Crescent, to name but a few.

SDO would be inadequate for all the above, as you'd still risk blocking other lines.

I have no objections to an 8x20m railway in concept, but it's probably far too expensive to implement.

 

[Greybeard33]

6 x 24m = 144m
8 x 20m = 160m

Not much difference.

350 carriages are actually 20.4m, so 163m for an 8-car. That extra 3m does make a difference. When TPE used its 350s in 8-car formations, they did not fit the 160m platforms at Oxford Road.

331/0s are 71.4m, so 143m for a 6-car. A 6-car 323 is 140m.

 

[Purple Orange]

350 carriages are actually 20.4m, so 163m for an 8-car. That extra 3m does make a difference. When TPE used its 350s in 8-car formations, they did not fit the 160m platforms at Oxford Road.

331/0s are 71.4m, so 143m for a 6-car. A 6-car 323 is 140m.

But then again 6-car 331s and 323s do feature in Manchester and they stop at Oxford Road. 8-car 350s also featured regularly when they were at TPE. The point is that TOCs seen fit to utilise the trains in this way and the only real issue is whether SDO operation is needed. 6-car trains have been used between Liverpool & Crewe too. There is no reason not to have 6-car trains.

 

[jonnyfan]

The infrastructure is certainly built for multiples of 3 x 23m carriages on the Northern electric routes in the west, which is why the 331s and 323s are ideal.
Using double 331s is easy with it's SDO.
The 323s need the platform infrastructure, even just Piccadilly to Hazel Grove would need both platforms at Woodsmoor extending.
Piccadilly to Stoke needs work at Cheadle Hulme (down), Prestbury (down), Kidsgrove (up) due to the mid platform signal (though a double 323 will fit if it stops beyond the signal, but it's not ideal on a regular basis) and Longport (for the twice daily stops!). Then Stoke is a faff, as the bay can only fit a single 323 or 331(3 car) otherwise you have to shunt into the sidings beyond the station.
Crewe needs Alderley Edge (up) and Chelford (down) sorting, and the route via the Airport needs work at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury and Gatley.
Between Lime Street and Manchester, basically every platform would need extending.
Manchester on to Blackpool North, work at Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland, plus I think some stations beyond Preston into Blackpool North.
Hadfield line would need every platform extending.

Some routes are easier than others, but some cash will need stumping up for work to make double 323s viable on a regular basis.

 

[py_megapixel]

The 323s need the platform infrastructure, even just Piccadilly to Hazel Grove would need both platforms at Woodsmoor extending.
Piccadilly to Stoke needs work at Cheadle Hulme (down), Prestbury (down), Kidsgrove (up) due to the mid platform signal (though a double 323 will fit if it stops beyond the signal, but it's not ideal on a regular basis) and Longport (for the twice daily stops!). Then Stoke is a faff, as the bay can only fit a single 323 or 331(3 car) otherwise you have to shunt into the sidings beyond the station.
Crewe needs Alderley Edge (up) and Chelford (down) sorting, and the route via the Airport needs work at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury and Gatley.

Just to clarify, is "up" in this case towards Manchester or towards London?

 

[Purple Orange]

The infrastructure is certainly built for multiples of 3 x 23m carriages on the Northern electric routes in the west, which is why the 331s and 323s are ideal.
Using double 331s is easy with it's SDO.
The 323s need the platform infrastructure, even just Piccadilly to Hazel Grove would need both platforms at Woodsmoor extending.
Piccadilly to Stoke needs work at Cheadle Hulme (down), Prestbury (down), Kidsgrove (up) due to the mid platform signal (though a double 323 will fit if it stops beyond the signal, but it's not ideal on a regular basis) and Longport (for the twice daily stops!). Then Stoke is a faff, as the bay can only fit a single 323 or 331(3 car) otherwise you have to shunt into the sidings beyond the station.
Crewe needs Alderley Edge (up) and Chelford (down) sorting, and the route via the Airport needs work at Mauldeth Road, Burnage, East Didsbury and Gatley.
Between Lime Street and Manchester, basically every platform would need extending.
Manchester on to Blackpool North, work at Blackrod, Adlington and Leyland, plus I think some stations beyond Preston into Blackpool North.
Hadfield line would need every platform extending.

Some routes are easier than others, but some cash will need stumping up for work to make double 323s viable on a regular basis.

What’s the chances of platforms being extended?

 

[jonnyfan]

Just to clarify, is "up" in this case towards Manchester or towards London?

Sorry, I should have clarified, "up" is towards London

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Apr 2021 ==

What’s the chances of platforms being extended?

From general observations on the south Manchester routes, there's not any physical barriers that prevent the platform extensions (apart from a signal at Woodsmoor in the up direction), so they are relatively "easy" as it were. Whether there is desire and funding is a whole different ball game.

 

[Greybeard33]

From general observations on the south Manchester routes, there's not any physical barriers that prevent the platform extensions (apart from a signal at Woodsmoor in the up direction), so they are relatively "easy" as it were. Whether there is desire and funding is a whole different ball game.

I think Cheadle Hulme would be problematic even if P3 could be extended by 20m. P3 and P4 are so sharply curved that the guard could not see the length of a 6-car train for self dispatch. Full time station dispatchers, or a second guard on each train, would probably be needed.

 

[Hey 3]

If more units for Northern are needed, it should be
The 4 car 331's lengthened to 5 cars
The 3 car 331's lengthened to 4 cars
The 2 car 195's lengthened to 3 whilst the 3 car 195's go to 4/5 cars
379's replace 333's with 333's possibly to either maybe(heaven forbid Scotrail) or to the scrap heap
Some 323's get lengthened to 4 cars(to make up for lost coach on the 319's)

 

[D365]

Is it still the case, as in past years, that Northern are still looked upon as the final resting ground for units that other TOC no longer need due to new stock arriving at those TOC?

Arguable with diesels but certainly not where it comes to electrical units.

 

[YorksLad12]

350 carriages are actually 20.4m, so 163m for an 8-car. That extra 3m does make a difference. When TPE used its 350s in 8-car formations, they did not fit the 160m platforms at Oxford Road.

331/0s are 71.4m, so 143m for a 6-car. A 6-car 323 is 140m.

Could the 350s (if used) be cut & shut into 6-car units as a compromise?

 

[HarryL]

379's replace 333's with 333's possibly to either maybe(heaven forbid Scotrail) or to the scrap heap

But in that scenario, why touch the 333s at all? They're a far more suitable unit for the job on the lines they serve and have better capacity than the 379s, to replace them and send them to scrap would make Northern worse off. Not to mention they'd have to spend money buying these units and the time training all their staff to be able to work them.

Replacing the 333s with the 379s would cost Northern half a million pounds minimum, just to bring them upto the same suitability/capacity/everything else as the trains they already have.

 

[Starmill]

The issue here is that there's not actually an enormous amount of efficiency left to gain in Northern's EMU fleet. The place where this is most obvious is Southern, where as far as I am aware there's not a plan in place yet to replace their class 313s or 455s. The oldest EMU fleets elsewhere have already got replacements lined up, such as Mersyrail and SWR. The 365s and 442s have already been recent victims. The remaining 319s (the small number at West Midlands Trains) may be next.

 

[XAM2175]

379's replace 333's with 333's possibly to either maybe(heaven forbid Scotrail) or to the scrap heap

Can we just scrap the 379s instead?

 

[CarrotPie]

The remaining 319s (the small number at West Midlands Trains) may be next.

Are they not going to be replaced the 730s?

 

[py_megapixel]

If more units for Northern are needed, it should be
The 4 car 331's lengthened to 5 cars

Why? That just adds another possible train length to the system for no real reason.

The 3 car 331's lengthened to 4 cars

I guess that makes sense though I honestly think focussing on getting as much of the network as possible suitable for 6 car working is more important than putting an extra carriage in some 331s

The 2 car 195's lengthened to 3 whilst the 3 car 195's go to 4/5 cars

Again why would you want 5 car 195s?
Surely it makes more sense just to build some more complete units, that way you can have 5 car formations if you want but you can also have 2, 3, 4, 6 or 7 car formations

Some 323's get lengthened to 4 cars(to make up for lost coach on the 319's)

Unfortunately Hunslet TP went bankrupt shortly after completing the 323 order and in any case the 323s are well over 20 years old, so I'm not sure how you intend to lengthen the 323s given nobody will build carriages for them. It's not possible to take the centre carriages out of other 323s as they're not motorised.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If more units for Northern are needed, it should be
Some 323's get lengthened to 4 cars(to make up for lost coach on the 319's)

If you want 80m units, just take the 350/2s. No need to faff about adding coaches to units that are not much newer (though are vastly nicer) than the 319s. OHLE EMUs are plentiful in all varieties.

 

[Hey 3]

Can we just scrap the 379s instead?

Why when they are 9-10 years old compared to 20 year old 333's?

 

[jonnyfan]

I think Cheadle Hulme would be problematic even if P3 could be extended by 20m. P3 and P4 are so sharply curved that the guard could not see the length of a 6-car train for self dispatch. Full time station dispatchers, or a second guard on each train, would probably be needed.

Yes, there's that too. The once daily 6 car 331 from Stoke to Blackpool North (not currently running) is a challenge to dispatch at Cheadle Hulme. Lots of walking back and forth!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, there's that too. The once daily 6 car 331 from Stoke to Blackpool North (not currently running) is a challenge to dispatch at Cheadle Hulme. Lots of walking back and forth!

Given that these units have "DOO" cameras, would a solution to this not be to provide* a means of a guard using them to dispatch from such stations instead of the Mk1 eyeball, i.e. by enabling them in the rear or intermediate cab when not keyed in as a driver? If there were visibility issues or they didn't work the traditional approach could still be used.

* And fix the things given that they are typical CAF quality and don't work.

 

[jonnyfan]

Given that these units have "DOO" cameras, would a solution to this not be to provide* a means of a guard using them to dispatch from such stations instead of the Mk1 eyeball, i.e. by enabling them in the rear or intermediate cab when not keyed in as a driver? If there were visibility issues or they didn't work the traditional approach could still be used.

* And fix the things given that they are typical CAF quality and don't work.

The cameras can be viewed without the cab being keyed in, however door controls will only work in the leading cab or the saloon door panels. You'd have to find a way to enable the door controls in a non-driving cab, which would probably be expensive and not easy. But it would make sense as a solution for a difficult platform like Cheadle Hulme.