Vaccine Passports/Permanent restrictions

[takno]

Didn't we establish some weeks or months ago that voting SNP in order to secure fewer or no restrictions would be utterly pointless and counterproductive? Did I imagine that conversation?

It's a conversation brought up every single day by the same poster. Not sure what the motivation is.

 

[Wuffle]

As anyone who has worked in Sales and Marketing will know opinion polls can be manipulated to give the result required

 

[NorthKent1989]

An interesting article which shows the pub sectors mood over passports

Everyone is anxious about vaccine passports, especially British pubs

As countries slowly reopen after the pandemic, governments are edging closer to the implementation of some form of vaccine passport: certificates for travelers in the EU, credentials to attend sports games or take cruises in the US, or passports for the 47,200-odd pubs in the UK.

qz.com

This and the fact that pub shares dropped the day Boris made the announcement of the possibly of vaccine passports for the pub is another sign that this will fail.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Where are you getting that from? Maybe if this had been a year ago I could agree with that but from what I can see people are fed up with restrictions and want and end to it, I know it might seem locktavists from Facebook are the majority but going by the fact that thousands marched in major cities a few weekends ago and with another march this month I don’t think the majority supports these at all

The public is not hot on civil liberties. Or rather they are not at all hot on thinking about the issues, the links between proposals, their immediate impact on others, and later impact on themselves further down the line.

As a concept yes, ask them a poll 'do you believe in civil liberties' and people will say yes. But expect them to make the connection between having a test and trace app, or a vaccination passport, and the impact those measures might have on society at large, rather than themselves personally, and there is generally an immediate fail. "I've had my jab, so if someone else 'can't be bothered' then it's their problem, innit. Then next month a different jab comes along, which they legitimately can't have, or can't get, or the new version of the app requires them to spend a fortune on a new smartphone - all of a sudden "this is a ridiculous imposition", "it's outrageous", "this is so unfair", "why are they picking on me", "I didn't think this would happen".

Lets bring it closer to home.
Few people outside this forum would object to a ban on photography at railway stations, or it being allowed but only with advance application, authorisation and monitoring. Yeah it's just a few anoraks getting worked up, "they get in the way anyway", "the railway is safer to operate without them". Now extend that small ban to one forbidding photography at other public places (parks, wildlife sites, museums) and DING "Oh yeah, now I can't take a photo of my kids eating ice cream at the playground, I can see what they were on about".

Think about the impact on others now. Because one day it will be your turn to be picked on.

 

[kristiang85]

As anyone who has worked in Sales and Marketing will know opinion polls can be manipulated to give the result required

This is the question IPSOS MORI used:

• Vaccine passports were defined to respondents as: ‘Some have suggested that the Government should introduce “vaccine passports” whereby those who have received the coronavirus vaccine would be able to prove they have taken it. Some argue that this could lead to coronavirus restrictions being lifted more quickly but you may not be able to visit certain places or do certain activities until you have one.’

Majority of Britons support vaccine passports but recognise concerns in new Ipsos MORI UK KnowledgePanel poll

New survey shows significant support for vaccine passports however, some are concerned about the potential issues they could cause

www.ipsos.com

To me, this is a fairly leading question. Basically "Do you want restrictions lifted more quickly?" Yes, of course. "If the vaccine passport meant restrictions being lifted more quickly, do you support it?" Yes. "Would you support the use of a vaccine passport to do XXX?" Yes.

Ergo, most will of course say that.

If it was asked 'would you want to see vaccine passports used after restrictions are eased on June 21st as planned' I daresay the results would be very different.

 

[Bantamzen]

This is the question IPSOS MORI used:

Majority of Britons support vaccine passports but recognise concerns in new Ipsos MORI UK KnowledgePanel poll

New survey shows significant support for vaccine passports however, some are concerned about the potential issues they could cause

www.ipsos.com

To me, this is a fairly leading question. Basically "Do you want restrictions lifted more quickly?" Yes, of course. "If the vaccine passport meant restrictions being lifted more quickly, do you support it?" Yes. "Would you support the use of a vaccine passport to do XXX?" Yes.

Ergo, most will of course say that.

If it was asked 'would you want to see vaccine passports used after restrictions are eased on June 21st as planned' I daresay the results would be very different.

This is a classic example of leading questions to get a desired result. As such it should be ignored, although I've no doubt some will take it as absolute proof that the public want vaccine passports.

 

[DustyBin]

The public is not hot on civil liberties. Or rather they are not at all hot on thinking about the issues, the links between proposals, their immediate impact on others, and later impact on themselves further down the line.

As a concept yes, ask them a poll 'do you believe in civil liberties' and people will say yes. But expect them to make the connection between having a test and trace app, or a vaccination passport, and the impact those measures might have on society at large, rather than themselves personally, and there is generally an immediate fail. "I've had my jab, so if someone else 'can't be bothered' then it's their problem, innit. Then next month a different jab comes along, which they legitimately can't have, or can't get, or the new version of the app requires them to spend a fortune on a new smartphone - all of a sudden "this is a ridiculous imposition", "it's outrageous", "this is so unfair", "why are they picking on me", "I didn't think this would happen".

Lets bring it closer to home.
Few people outside this forum would object to a ban on photography at railway stations, or it being allowed but only with advance application, authorisation and monitoring. Yeah it's just a few anoraks getting worked up, "they get in the way anyway", "the railway is safer to operate without them". Now extend that small ban to one forbidding photography at other public places (parks, wildlife sites, museums) and DING "Oh yeah, now I can't take a photo of my kids eating ice cream at the playground, I can see what they were on about".

Think about the impact on others now. Because one day it will be your turn to be picked on.

Very well put!

 

[kez19]

I am voting SNP and I demand independence away from this awful controlling prime minister. That’s it the union is finished.

You do realise all politicians bat for the same team? They don’t care about you or I, they don’t live with the consequences we do.

What happens after independence and we are shafted? I guess it’s the same rhetoric we will blame Westminster for the mess?

If you are happy to vote SNP I for one not stopping you but I would just advise looking at things more with an open mind than the tinted spectacle we are all led to believe (this includes the media).

Open your eyes/mind it doesn’t matter who we vote for anyway.

I’m saying this as more of a neutral as I couldn’t care about these people in power

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m personally going to vote for Lawrence Fox, we need to break away from the Tories and Labour and we need to tell the established parties that they’re unfit for purpose, not sure it’ll do any good but at least I can say I’ve not voted for the main parties

 

[Smidster]

Where are you getting that from? Maybe if this had been a year ago I could agree with that but from what I can see people are fed up with restrictions and want and end to it, I know it might seem locktavists from Facebook are the majority but going by the fact that thousands marched in major cities a few weekends ago and with another march this month I don’t think the majority supports these at all.

The Lib Dem’s, Tory rebels and now Labour are against these passports, Boris will commit political suicide if he presses ahead with vaccine passports, it won’t do anything to recover the economy, and it’ll breed illegal pubs and festivals, it’ll kill off the Tories for generations, I’m pry convinced that this will be a step too far for Boris

Yes - It is coming from opinion polls but as a professional statistician I know all of the effort that goes into creating properly stratified samples and all the evidence throughout the last year shows that the Public are supportive of Government being hard-line when it comes to anything Covid-related although I will give you that the proportion who support this is slightly lower than for other stuff.

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1377205350835892224

They will do it and it will not be "political suicide" for Johnson - he will be just fine as he will be seen as the hero who "restored our freedom"

 

[takno]

Yes - It is coming from opinion polls but as a professional statistician I know all of the effort that goes into creating properly stratified samples and all the evidence throughout the last year shows that the Public are supportive of Government being hard-line when it comes to anything Covid-related although I will give you that the proportion who support this is slightly lower than for other stuff.

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1377205350835892224

They will do it and it will not be "political suicide" for Johnson - he will be just fine as he will be seen as the hero who "restored our freedom"

"All the effort" that went into this poll was some explanatory notes suggesting that vaccine passports were a route to earlier opening. They do a bit of stratification, but as a professional statistician you'll appreciate that if they hobble the question before they start then the answers aren't worth the tweets they highly-selectively print the results on

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes - It is coming from opinion polls but as a professional statistician I know all of the effort that goes into creating properly stratified samples and all the evidence throughout the last year shows that the Public are supportive of Government being hard-line when it comes to anything Covid-related although I will give you that the proportion who support this is slightly lower than for other stuff.

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1377205350835892224

They will do it and it will not be "political suicide" for Johnson - he will be just fine as he will be seen as the hero who "restored our freedom"

Talk about being selective...

The full link to the survey is upthread, along with this quote:

"Our UK KnowledgePanel findings show that the public are once again prepared to do what it takes to get out of this pandemic. While they recognise the issues around vaccine passports, particularly their potential to exacerbate existing inequalities, their potential importance to ending lockdown and reopening the economy has won the argument for the majority of the British public."

Now when they are practically admitting that the questions were loaded towards a "Do you want an end to restriction, and if so would you accept passports" line, it shows that this really isn't how people really feel. I'm sure if you disconnected restriction relaxation from vaccine passports, few would vote for the latter.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Yes - It is coming from opinion polls but as a professional statistician I know all of the effort that goes into creating properly stratified samples and all the evidence throughout the last year shows that the Public are supportive of Government being hard-line when it comes to anything Covid-related although I will give you that the proportion who support this is slightly lower than for other stuff.

https://twitter.com/benatipsosmori/status/1377205350835892224

They will do it and it will not be "political suicide" for Johnson - he will be just fine as he will be seen as the hero who "restored our freedom"

Polls still don’t speak for the majority of people, if polls were correct then Britain would still be a member of the EU as all the polls suggested we would vote remain, if polls were correct then Jeremy Corbyn should have won the 2017 elections, so forgive me if I take polls with a pinch of salt.

I don’t think there are many who will see Boris as a hero if he continues on with draconian measures that invades our civil liberties any further, we will see in May on which constituencies the Tories will retain

 

[Darandio]

Talk about being selective...

The full link to the survey is upthread, along with this quote:

"Our UK KnowledgePanel findings show that the public are once again prepared to do what it takes to get out of this pandemic. While they recognise the issues around vaccine passports, particularly their potential to exacerbate existing inequalities, their potential importance to ending lockdown and reopening the economy has won the argument for the majority of the British public."

Now when they are practically admitting that the questions were loaded towards a "Do you want an end to restriction, and if so would you accept passports" line, it shows that this really isn't how people really feel. I'm sure if you disconnected restriction relaxation from vaccine passports, few would vote for the latter.

Entirely loaded.

I've just been reading replies to it on Twitter. One just says it's no different than having a driving licence. This is the level we've descended to.

 

[kristiang85]

Entirely loaded.

I've just been reading replies to it on Twitter. One just says it's no different than having a driving licence. This is the level we've descended to.

Indeed, some people just don't get it, it seems. There's a travel account I follow, and they said "I had to get a yellow fever certificate to go to the Amazon last year. What's the big deal?"

Luckily others had already explained that going to the Amazon is not an everyday thing that everybody does, whereas what is proposed will put restrictions on certain peoples' everyday lives. I was going to make a semi-serious joke about being denied entry to the post office to pick up an Amazon package, but I decided I've argued enough with idiots on the internet this week

 

[MikeWM]

Indeed, some people just don't get it, it seems. There's a travel account I follow, and they said "I had to get a yellow fever certificate to go to the Amazon last year. What's the big deal?"

Luckily others had already explained that going to the Amazon is not an everyday thing that everybody does, whereas what is proposed will put restrictions on certain peoples' everyday lives. I was going to make a semi-serious joke about being denied entry to the post office to pick up an Amazon package, but I decided I've argued enough with idiots on the internet this week

These people are always around, I fear. The common refrain back in the ID card debate I've been recalling over the last few pages (once 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear' fell out of fashion) was 'well everyone has a Tesco Clubcard, it's just like that'. Indeed, you get so many people saying the exact same silly thing that sometimes it seems as if they are all getting it from a script somewhere.

Of course, pretty much the first act of the current government (if you count it as going back to 2010) was to abolish the Blair/Brown ID cards.

To quote, err, Theresa May, in 2010:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2010-06-09/debates/10060953000001/IdentityDocumentsBill

I am very pleased to introduce the first piece of legislation that the new Administration are putting before Parliament. It signals a profound change in the way in which Government will interact with the people they serve.

The national identity card scheme represents the worst of government. It is intrusive and bullying, ineffective and expensive. It is an assault on individual liberty which does not promise a greater good. The Bill is, therefore, partly symbolic. It sends a message that the Government are going to do business in a different way. We are the servants of the people, not their masters, and every action that we take must be considered in that context.

 

[kez19]

These people are always around, I fear. The common refrain back in the ID card debate I've been recalling over the last few pages (once 'if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear' fell out of fashion) was 'well everyone has a Tesco Clubcard, it's just like that'. Indeed, you get so many people saying the exact same silly thing that sometimes it seems as if they are all getting it from a script somewhere.

Of course, pretty much the first act of the current government (if you count it as going back to 2010) was to abolish the Blair/Brown ID cards.

To quote, err, Theresa May, in 2010:

https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2010-06-09/debates/10060953000001/IdentityDocumentsBill

I wonder what Theresa May would have done if she was still PM? I do wonder if this whole thing would be a different outcome to now and would she have told the likes of Whitty/SAGE to bugger off?

 

[NorthKent1989]

Boris has said vaccine passports won’t be used for hospitals or supermarkets....so if pubs do enforce vaccine passports then people will simply buy alcohol and snacks and they’ll do a roaring trade, it makes zero sense, does Covid pick out unvaccinated people at pubs but not supermarkets?

This shows that the whole thing is unworkable, either have it for all venues or don’t have them at all

 

[MikeWM]

Boris has said vaccine passports won’t be used for hospitals or supermarkets....so if pubs do enforce vaccine passports then people will simply buy alcohol and snacks and they’ll do a roaring trade, it makes zero sense, does Covid pick out unvaccinated people at pubs but not supermarkets?

This shows that the whole thing is unworkable, either have it for all venues or don’t have them at all

As I said a few pages ago, the plan is obvious. Those places that check vaccine papers will be 'allowed' to dispense with all the social distancing and mask nonsense. Those places that won't - or can't, for supermarkets, doctors, probably public transport - will have to continue with it all.

 

[Wychwood93]

As I said a few pages ago, the plan is obvious. Those places that check vaccine papers will be 'allowed' to dispense with all the social distancing and mask nonsense. Those places that won't - or can't, for supermarkets, doctors, probably public transport - will have to continue with it all.

Who will oversee all this - Local Authority, Police, vigilante groups? It would be an absolute nightmare, given that having had a vaccination does not make you a non-carrier. I really hope the whole idea gets kicked into touch.

 

[nedchester]

As I said a few pages ago, the plan is obvious. Those places that check vaccine papers will be 'allowed' to dispense with all the social distancing and mask nonsense. Those places that won't - or can't, for supermarkets, doctors, probably public transport - will have to continue with it all.

I can see a lot more “mask exempt” people on public transport after 21/6/21

 

[greyman42]

I can see a lot more “mask exempt” people on public transport after 21/6/21

Without a doubt and good on them. I am already one of them.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So now Chris Whitty has now said what most of the public have been saying for months that we will have to live with Covid like we do with the cold and flu.

Now he has said this then surely the case for domestic vaccine passports should now be redundant and forgotten about? Why bar people from living their lives over something that will become like the the cold and flu?

No more lockdowns – Britain will treat Covid like flu, says Chris Whitty

Accepting some virus deaths is price of allowing people to live a 'whole life', says chief medical officer

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[Darandio]

So now Chris Whitty has now said what most of the public have been saying for months that we will have to live with Covid like we do with the cold and flu.

Now he has said this then surely the case for domestic vaccine passports should now be redundant and forgotten about? Why bar people from living their lives over something that will become like the the cold and flu?

To be fair to Whitty he's been saying this for a few months as well, he's dropped similar comments into some of the press conferences and in many online interviews.

Whether anyone listens to him is something else entirely.....

 

[Yew]

I’m not so sure about passports, but the vibe I get is that people are vehemently in favour of “other people” being vaccinated. There’s certainly a narrative doing the rounds that it’s a health hazard being near anyone who isn’t vaccinated.

The suggestion of a “clean pub” and a “dirty pub” isn’t that far off the realms of possibility unfortunately.

Perhaps they'll be 'separate but equal'?

 

[NorthKent1989]

I’m not so sure about passports, but the vibe I get is that people are vehemently in favour of “other people” being vaccinated. There’s certainly a narrative doing the rounds that it’s a health hazard being near anyone who isn’t vaccinated.

The suggestion of a “clean pub” and a “dirty pub” isn’t that far off the realms of possibility unfortunately.

The so called dirty pub will probably be better anyway, cheaper too

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Apr 2021 ==

To be fair to Whitty he's been saying this for a few months as well, he's dropped similar comments into some of the press conferences and in many online interviews.

Whether anyone listens to him is something else entirely.....

Well, one would hope Boris will listen, but he’s hell bent on being the 21st century’s answer to Churchill over this whole thing, but with growing backlash against passports for domestic use he will have to accept defeat on that.

 

[HSTEd]

I can see a lot more “mask exempt” people on public transport after 21/6/21

Well the number of multi thousand pound FPNs the BTP will hand out will go some way to eliminating the enormous railway subsidy pile!

 

[nedchester]

Well the number of multi thousand pound FPNs the BTP will hand out will go some way to eliminating the enormous railway subsidy pile!

Not if they are 'exempt'........

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Well the number of multi thousand pound FPNs the BTP will hand out will go some way to eliminating the enormous railway subsidy pile!

Has anyone received the maximum penalty from BTP, as advertised so prominantly on National Rail Enquires? (rather than the starting penalty)

 

[NorthOxonian]

Has anyone received the maximum penalty from BTP, as advertised so prominantly on National Rail Enquires? (rather than the starting penalty)

I wouldn't expect anyone has been given that penalty, though I don't know. Only a Freedom of Information request would give a definitive answer either way.