Thorough Ticket Checks and Pendolino Automated Annoucements

[scotsman]

Once, when I was in the cab of a Pendo (legally!) - the driver was showing me all the controls. He pointed out the automated announcements, he said they weren't allowed to use them. He tried to play one to let me hear it, but the TM had isolated them himself.

 

[Mojo]

If a station has four exits and you put in four barriers, that means you have to pay at least four members of staff to man them (as keeping barriers closed with no staff is against the rules*, not least because of disability access and because there's always some tickets that don't work properly), and to do this at every station would soon eat away at any extra revenue you get.

Ticket gates must be monitored by someone who is able to communicate with passengers, adjust the gates depending on passenger flow and operate the emergency release, however the person monitoring the gateline does not have to physically be there (ie. they can be in a control room monitoring the gates).

The minimum staffing level depends on the passenger flow and whether the member of staff can take action as appropriate action. Obviously for busy stations having a member of staff not present would not comply with the rules.

On a customer service and revenue protection (rather than safety) level, I feel every gateline should have a member of staff present.

 

[mickey]

Ticket gates must be monitored by someone who is able to communicate with passengers, adjust the gates depending on passenger flow and operate the emergency release, however the person monitoring the gateline does not have to physically be there (ie. they can be in a control room monitoring the gates).

The minimum staffing level depends on the passenger flow and whether the member of staff can take action as appropriate action. Obviously for busy stations having a member of staff not present would not comply with the rules.

On a customer service and revenue protection (rather than safety) level, I feel every gateline should have a member of staff present.

So having said that, how does Conway Park qualify? As I said, there's only one staff member on duty at most times (selling tickets), and he has to leave the office to walk over to the gate if anyone needs anything. And if there's a queue for tickets this could take a while.

The barriers are next to useless as everyone who travels even remotely regularly knows you can just push the manual gate open. Indeed most people with legitimate tickets have to anyway, as passes, etc., don't work in the barriers.

It would be interesting to know if Merseyrail actually is following the rules or if, as so often, they've just made up their own. I'd be interested to know if anyone can clarify

 

[Mojo]

So having said that, how does Conway Park qualify? As I said, there's only one staff member on duty at most times (selling tickets), and he has to leave the office to walk over to the gate if anyone needs anything. And if there's a queue for tickets this could take a while.

I don't know the station so I can't say, but is the station control unit located in the ticket office? Where is the emergency open plunger?

I have seen many new station installations where I'd say the gateline does not comply with the standards; having too few gates, being located too close to stairs, things like that. I'm not too sure who enforces them though so as yet I have not complained.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Around a month ago, I did Preston-Edinburgh-London-Preston on Pendolinos in First.

Preston to Edinburgh: No ticket check what so ever, despite seeing four or five TMs on the train, who appeared to be being trained. I would have happily showed my ticket to one of the CSAs if requested.

Edinburgh to London via Birmingham- No ticket check until after Preston. The Edinburgh to Preston TM even requested over the PA for pax to have tickets ready, but seemingly only checked Standard Class.

I was very impressed with the promptness of the Preston to Wolves TM- appeared minutes after he took over. Also got checked on the final leg after we left Coventry.

Euston to Preston TM checked First passengers despite barrier checks & being the very last departure, which was good.

Having said all this, I travelled a few times Preston to Glasgow & back on Pendos over summer, with no ticket checks on at least two return journeys. Compare this to a few months back, when always had my ticket checked at some stage.

 

[scrapy]

VT are in quite a fortunate position for ticket gates - half their stations are perfect for it: Rugby, Coventry, Bhm Intl, Wolves, Stockport, Macclesfield, Stoke, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Stafford, Lancaster, Oxenholme, Penrith & Carlisle only have one exit.

Stockport has 2 exits, Stoke has 3+the 1st class lounge, is there really space for gates at Warrington BQ or Macclesfield? although I guess at Macclesfield they could be outside at either side of the ticket office like Loughborough. Manchester/Stockport/Macclesfield seems to be a free for all on VT and XC.

I agree with the earlier post saying barriers won't stop determined fare dodgers, however many people in this area feel it is perfectly OK to arrive at the station, walk past ticket office/machines and board train. If challenged on board they will happilly buy a ticket (expecting cheapest fare). If not challenged will walk off at the other end past ticket office without paying. They do not see themselves as fare dodgers because no-one asked for a ticket. When asked on board why they didn't buy from ticket office the answer is often 'because no one was checking' or 'I always buy on the train, if they don't get to me it's their problem'. It is these people who don't consider themselves fare evaders which barriers will stop rather than the more determined fare evader.

 

[PR1Berske]

Virgin do have the reputation as the most likely to offer 'free rides', which of course makes some passengers (who are the "I'm not really a fare dodger" types described above) complacent. (And yes, I have been known to take advantage of Virgin's generosity).

 

[WestCoast]

I agree with the earlier post saying barriers won't stop determined fare dodgers, however many people in this area feel it is perfectly OK to arrive at the station, walk past ticket office/machines and board train. If challenged on board they will happilly buy a ticket (expecting cheapest fare). If not challenged will walk off at the other end past ticket office without paying. They do not see themselves as fare dodgers because no-one asked for a ticket. When asked on board why they didn't buy from ticket office the answer is often 'because no one was checking' or 'I always buy on the train, if they don't get to me it's their problem'. It is these people who don't consider themselves fare evaders which barriers will stop rather than the more determined fare evader.

I see this sort of 'fare evader' quite frequently. If you live outside a penalty fare area what incentive do you have to purchase before you board? This mentality prevails across these areas. OK you might not get your railcard or 'off-peak' discount but the Preston - Lancaster SDR is the same wherever and whenever you purchase it. And if a guard doesn't challenge such evaders well then they get away with it don't they? That is the problem....

 

[ainsworth74]

If you live outside a penalty fare area what incentive do you have to purchase before you board?

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

 

[chris89]

On the New Street - Edinburgh Services they are quite frequent for ticket checks (Mostly before Crewe) And on the way back just before Carstairs junction.

Only had my ticket checked twice, for the times i've used them and when they have annoucned Ticket checks on both the 221's and 390's have been manual annoucements.

Also have to say the same most of the Virgin staff i've spoken to are very nice and chatty and will talk to you. Only one who wasn't but then was a very busy service.

For checking tickets on some parts of the journey is quite diffucult especially between Crewe - Carlise as it gets very busy normally.

Chris

 

[lm321412]

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

Nobody has to in theory if there is no barrier

However surely its common sense that its worth buying a ticket if you are in a Penalty Fares zone?

 

[WestCoast]

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

I am a firm believer that if suitable and sufficient ticket purchase facilities exist at the commencing station you should have to purchase before boarding. People will probably disagree but that is my opinion.

I often travel in Germany on local/regional trains (S-Bahn/ Regio/ Regio Express/ local private operators) and a fair majority of stations are staffed or have several ticket machines. You are fined if you don't purchase before boarding. It seems to work well and no one argues. If you board at an unstaffed halt there is a ticket machine onboard, which sells a large range of tickets and accepts cash and cards and you are expected to buy your ticket from that. A guard inspects tickets on some trains or roving ticket inspectors operate. On Intercity and ICE you can buy onboard with a supplement.

In the Netherlands the situation is even stricter. On all NS stoptrein/intercity/sneltrein services it is absolutely compulsory to buy a ticket before boarding. Fines are always levied on non-paying individuals. Sophisticated ticketing exists - i.e. print at home tickets on all services, easy to use ticket machines in abundance

 

[ivanhoe]

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

People who very rarely or never use trains would find that comment strange. There is a general perception that you must buy before you board. Obviously there are exceptions with unmanned stations but I would never dream of boarding without buying a ticket.
Most of my journies are Loughborough to Liverpool and during the day, there are plenty of ticket checks. However, late at night which is when I usually travel back the checking is not as rigid. At Lime Street , if I am getting the Virgin Train to Nuneaton, the ticket will be checked before I board. If I travel EMT via Nottingham or Sheffield, then checks tend to be less uniform. I think that all passegers should have their tickets stamped at Lime Street. EMT and London Midland tend to depart from the open platforms of 7, 8 and 9.

I like the Italian system which means you must validate your ticket on the platform, before you board. Failure to do so results in penalties.

 

[scotsman]

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

Because it would be impossible for both me and the Guard to do an entire train between stops if any more than, say, 35% of the passengers didn't purchase.

 

[ainsworth74]

Because it would be impossible for both me and the Guard to do an entire train between stops if any more than, say, 35% of the passengers didn't purchase.

I'm not suggesting that the only place to buy tickets should be on board, because as you say it would be impossible for staff to get round and issue tickets between stops. I just don't agree that passengers must buy before they board.

I am a firm believer that if suitable and sufficient ticket purchase facilities exist at the commencing station you should have to purchase before boarding. People will probably disagree but that is my opinion.

And indeed I do disagree (but life would be boring if we all agreed )

 

[mickey]

OK you might not get your railcard or 'off-peak' discount but the Preston - Lancaster SDR is the same wherever and whenever you purchase it. And if a guard doesn't challenge such evaders well then they get away with it don't they? That is the problem....

Part of the problem is the lack of CDRs on some routes. If there's no supplement for buying on board why would anyone bother? Yet the TOCs only have themselves to blame if they remove or don't introduce off-peak tickets.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think that all passegers should have their tickets stamped at Lime Street. EMT and London Midland tend to depart from the open platforms of 7, 8 and 9.

LM tends to use a mix of 5, 6 and 8. IME at least 50% of the time I have had to pass through the Northern barrier. Whether staff there actually bother to read anything on the ticket is another matter...

 

[PR1Berske]

I see this sort of 'fare evader' quite frequently. If you live outside a penalty fare area what incentive do you have to purchase before you board? This mentality prevails across these areas. OK you might not get your railcard or 'off-peak' discount but the Preston - Lancaster SDR is the same wherever and whenever you purchase it. And if a guard doesn't challenge such evaders well then they get away with it don't they? That is the problem....

The Preston-Lancaster route is one I know well (once when I fell asleep during the morning-after-the-night-before journey from Wigan). Having grown used to Virgin trains being pretty much free rides, I was brought down to earth quite publicly the day I went there on a TransPennine Express with a couple of mates

"Nah, these trains are never checked for tick....Oh cr*p"
"HA HA HA HA HA"

 

[Greenback]

Why should anyone have to buy before they board?

Ainsworth74, you have raised a very interesting point there!

In many parts of the country, you don't have to buy before boarding at all, even when there is a ticket office open and TVM's, guards are happy to sell tickets on board. Indeed, some companies deliberately offer this facility.

Yet, in another part of the country, you can board at a similar sized station and be penalty fared!

At least the systems in Germany and The Netherlands seem to be consistently applied, so that everyone knows where they stand.

 

[mickey]

At least the systems in Germany and The Netherlands seem to be consistently applied, so that everyone knows where they stand.

...Which in the Netherlands is mostly in the vestibules

 

[PR1Berske]

Ainsworth74, you have raised a very interesting point there!

In many parts of the country, you don't have to buy before boarding at all, even when there is a ticket office open and TVM's, guards are happy to sell tickets on board. Indeed, some companies deliberately offer this facility.

Yet, in another part of the country, you can board at a similar sized station and be penalty fared!

At least the systems in Germany and The Netherlands seem to be consistently applied, so that everyone knows where they stand.

That's a good point. If I spend my entire travelling life on Northern or Transpennine where on board ticketing is fine, I won't be best pleased if another company collars me for "fare evasion" =!

 

[WestCoast]

The Preston-Lancaster route is one I know well (once when I fell asleep during the morning-after-the-night-before journey from Wigan). Having grown used to Virgin trains being pretty much free rides, I was brought down to earth quite publicly the day I went there on a TransPennine Express with a couple of mates

Yes, Transpennine Express (and the few Northern services a day that operate) seem more rigorous with revenue on this route.

Part of the problem is the lack of CDRs on some routes. If there's no supplement for buying on board why would anyone bother? Yet the TOCs only have themselves to blame if they remove or don't introduce off-peak tickets.

I don't necessarily agree with restricting tickets but this Wigan - Preston - Lancaster corridor would be appropriate for some "Virgin trains only" tickets so they keep all the revenue and give an incentive to purchase before boarding. They wouldn't have to share it with TPE and Northern. I read somewhere that there are Liverpool - Runcorn and Manchester - Stockport VT only tickets.

 

[Pumbaa]

Both of my Pendo journeys today were auto-announced, and the TM checking tickets along the Stoke/Crewe corridor.

 

[scotsman]

In many parts of the country, you don't have to buy before boarding at all, even when there is a ticket office open and TVM's, guards are happy to sell tickets on board. Indeed, some companies deliberately offer this facility.

Yet, in another part of the country, you can board at a similar sized station and be penalty fared!

Yeah! I had to be very careful when I travelled with FGW this summer.

 

[mickey]

I read somewhere that there are Liverpool - Runcorn and Manchester - Stockport VT only tickets.

There are also LIV-STA VT-only fares.

 

[Pumbaa]

And RUN - STA; MAN - SOT/MAC.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Back to the automated announcements:

I was on the 1145 WVH-EUS last Friday. We had manual on departure from WVH and approaching SAD, but after that it was automated.
The train manager was dealing with an "incident". No idea what it was but it led to an unscheduled stop in MKC with lots of police on the platform.
We went back to manual announcements for WFJ and EUS!