AP EMT + Connections: Do time restrictions apply to SWT portion too?

[Broken Viking]

Hail all!
As part of my travel plans for the next month, I'm looking at buying an EMT Advance from Derby to Farnborough to tie-up a "reverse" set of tickets (Return North to south, insted of my usual south to North) that I'm likely to end up with next week.

I've already looked at EMTs booking interface and found that the ticket I want is currently available (With the LUL transfer and SWT bit working out to only £3,- extra! ) but I'm a bit stuck with regard to the timings. Because of my plans, I'll need to leave Derby on the 16:18 departure (Arrives STP about 18:00) but I won't be able to continue my journey from Waterloo until at least 23:00 because I'll be transferring across London on foot, and I'm not so certain about the road route between St. Pancras and Waterloo.

When I select my departure from Derby however; The EMT booking system automatically sticks me on the 19:09 ex Waterloo, and I can't seem to find an option to change that. SWT don't do seat bookings on many SWML services though, and I'm certain that my use of the 23:42 insted of the 19:09 would be more beneficial to SWT in a commercial sense.

Therefore, what I need to know is: If I book an Advance + Connections ticket, the specific departure restriction obviously applies to the first train, for which the Advance fare is issued...But is the time given on my itinerary for the SWT leg between Waterloo and Farnborough equally binding, or can I take any SWT service of my choice at or after the time shown on my itinerary?

I've already sent EMT a similar question via their online customer service form, but - Given it's a Sunday - I doubt I'll get a response before tomorrow lunchtime...So I'm hoping I can get a clear cut answer to this question quickly so I can purchase my ticket ASAP.

Farewell for now, and many thanks once again for any assistance!
>> Death <<

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I've used AP tickets from Nottingham to Guildford many times. The tickets were was you are looking at, ie East Midlands on a reserved service and then a SWT service to Guildford.

I don't think I have ever actually got the recommended service from Waterloo to Guildford. I've never had a problem with ticket inspection on the SWT trains or with the automated barriers at Waterloo or Guildford.

In summary, book your ticket. It won't be a problem getting a SWT service a few hours later than the recommended one.
Cheers,
Jason

 

[Broken Viking]

I don't think I have ever actually got the recommended service from Waterloo to Guildford. I've never had a problem with ticket inspection on the SWT trains or with the automated barriers at Waterloo or Guildford.

Cheers for the response, Jason!
Can I just confirm that the itinerary shows the SWT service as being Recommended, as opposed to being Mandatory? I didn't think that there'd be any call for the SWT portion of the journey to be train-specific (SWT don't do Advance fares after all) but I wanted to confirm my assumption on that point was correct.
(In any case, I'm still quite new to Advance fares - Having only ever used them once before now - And so I'm not that familiar with the rules regarding Advance + Connections tickets. )

In summary, book your ticket. It won't be a problem getting a SWT service a few hours later than the recommended one.

Will do as soon as I can, once someone can confirm that the +Connections bit isn't tied to the same time restrictions as the Advance fare to which it's attached (See my request for clarification above). Thanks again for the help!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Where the ticket states '& connections' the ticket may be used on any connecting service that can be shown on a valid travel itinerary. The main portion of the journey (on EMT in this case) must be by the booked train.

 

[swt_passenger]

...(SWT don't do Advance fares after all)...

They do, but only west of Brockenhurst, Tisbury and Warminster inclusive. Anyone booking through to Bounemouth, for example, could end up with a booked train, although they don't reserve seats.

 

[Broken Viking]

Where the ticket states '& connections' the ticket may be used on any connectioning service that can be shown on a valid travel itinerary. The main portion of the journey (on EMT in this case) must be by the booked train.

Excellent! I've purchased my tickets from EMT just now, so that's my travel plans for the next month (Almost) done & dusted!
Incidentally, I've been given a reservation on EMT in Coach C. I presume that'd be on a 222 Meridian?

They do, but only west of Brockenhurst, Tisbury and Warminster inclusive. Anyone booking through to Bounemouth, for example, could end up with a booked train, although they don't reserve seats.

Hmm...I've never seen SWT advertising Advance fares whenever I've looked either on their website or in Avantix. I wonder why they don't issue them for the SWML, given that I havn't seen any MegaTrain activity for over two years now?

 

[yorkie]

I very much doubt SWT will want to see your EMT reservation. But, if they do, they may suspect you have broken your journey, given the fact you are spending several hours in London! I see nothing wrong with, say, having a meal in station premises at somewhere like Waterloo, as that isn't a break of journey. You are allowed to walk between STP and WAT, which would take some time, as you are allowed to leave station premesis for the purpose of walking between stations, this is also not a break of journey. However if you pause, while walking between the stations, at a 'gathering' it is unclear if this then becomes a break of journey.

This is one of those questions where it probably is best not asking to be honest, it opens up a can of worms.

Here is the definition of break of journey:

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

In theory, if an RPI saw what you got up to between STP and WAT and believed it constituted a break of journey, they could attempt try to excess you up to the appropriatel fare for your journey. However if an RPI attempted to follow me out of the station, I'd be rather surprised and would not be best pleased.

So no, I don't think you are allowed to attend a 'gathering' during your journey (unless it happens to be at station premises or it can count as part of your walk from STP to WAT) but in reality it would be impossible to enforce.

 

[John @ home]

I've been given a reservation on EMT in Coach C. I presume that'd be on a 222 Meridian?

The EMT timetable shows which services are scheduled to be HSTs and Meridians.

 

[mickey]

The closest I ever got to an answer on this was that it depends on whether you get a 'reservation' coupon with your tickets. Note that this doesn't have to be an actual seat reservation, just a coupon detailing which train you're supposed to be on ('coach' and 'seat' may be marked with an *). As an example, I've had a no-seat reservation coupon for a FGW 165/6 issued with a VWC+connctns ticket before now, and as such have had to travel on that train. I asked the guard on that train when I made the journey and he said if no such coupon is issued you can use any 'reasonable' train, though he didn't define what that meant. Obviously I don't want to take his words as the official line in case they're not, but this might nevertheless help the OP. It's also not clear whether a gap of 5 hours is 'reasonable', or whether a TM or RPI has the right to demand proof of the original itinerary (i.e. do you need to keep hold of a reservation coupon even after you've got off the train it was valid on?).

EDIT: What would happen if you got one of the larger airline-style tickets? They used to detail every train on your itinerary, right down to Merseyrail locals, so would you have to follow it exactly, given that an advance ticket "is only valid on the trains detailed on your tickets"?

 

[Mojo]

EDIT: What would happen if you got one of the larger airline-style tickets? They used to detail every train on your itinerary, right down to Merseyrail locals, so would you have to follow it exactly, given that an advance ticket "is only valid on the trains detailed on your tickets"?

When they were commonly issued they detailed the train and said "SUGGESTED SERVICE" meaning that you did not have to travel on that train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The official line is that if your ticket states '+connections' in the route on the ticket, you can use any connecting service that you can show on a 'valid travel itinerary'. If it is not stated in the route on the ticket you must use the reserved services.

NOTE: I have seen on this forum people say 'if part of the journey is left unreserved you can use any service for that part of the journey', this not true. If your ticket does not state +connections, you would get away with using a non reservable service, but if you used a reserveable service without a reservation, it is basically the same as admitting you changed your journey plans.

 

[mickey]

if you used a reserveable service without a reservation, it is basically the same as admitting you changed your journey plans.

What happens if reservations are available for your service but you don't get given one by the issuing computer? I've had tickets issued before with a reservation on the core LIV-EUS section but no coupon for a recommended suburban service, even when reservations are available on it. And if you don't get a reservation, are you able to choose which to use?

 

[Broken Viking]

What happens if reservations are available for your service but you don't get given one by the issuing computer? I've had tickets issued before with a reservation on the core LIV-EUS section but no coupon for a recommended suburban service, even when reservations are available on it. And if you don't get a reservation, are you able to choose which to use?

I imagine that in such a case it's down to the passenger's own decision with a few logical restrictions, I.E: If their ticket is valid during off-peak hours, they shouldn't try boarding a peak-hour train.

That said, this thread does seem to show that the (under)standing of an Advance +Connections ticket is something of a grey area, so it'd be nice if the NRCoC was updated to clarify exactly how/when a +Connections ticket can/can't be used.

However...As the purchase of my Advance earlier today was influenced by the clear understanding at time of purchase that my +Conn ticket can be used in this manner, then I believe that still stands under consumer laws as a part of the contract under which SWT will be bound.
On the other hand though, I've also turfed up a couple of handy clauses inside the NCoC and elsewhere which I can lawfully use to ensure validity of my ticket on any service that afternoon. I'm not going to post/PM relevant clauses etc until after the journey though, as I'm darned if I'm giving AToC a chance to write that out of the NCoC before I travel!

 

[maddeningcrowds]

'Valid travel itinerary': "valid" is undefined in this context. Therefore various passengers, staff, customer sales people, TOCs etc. define (and enforce) it differently. I believe as a consumer you are entitled to your own reasonable definition if the contract is vague, which in this case it certainly is.

 

[Broken Viking]

I believe as a consumer you are entitled to your own reasonable definition if the contract is vague, which in this case it certainly is.

Aye. In any case, the TOC gains benefit from the way my journey works out because they gain a seat in an evening semi-peak in exchange for a standing space on a train during the Graveyard shift...And I'd be very surprised if SWT would rather have it the other way around!

 

[yorkie]

That said, this thread does seem to show that the (under)standing of an Advance +Connections ticket is something of a grey area, so it'd be nice if the NRCoC was updated to clarify exactly how/when a +Connections ticket can/can't be used.

You can't "break your journey" on an Advance ticket. It's up to you to decide how exactly your gathering fits in with that. I wouldn't bother ringing up/emailing EMT describing your gathering and asking if that counts; it will achieve nothing. I can't advise you a definitive answer that what you intend to do will or won't be seen as a BOJ but I have defined it and added my thoughts, I suggest you decide for yourself what to do, but I really wouldn't push the TOCs for an answer. You may find someone says "you have to use the booked trains" or similar, completely ignoring/misunderstanding the question. They aren't going to enter into a debate like we do on this forum, and what they say is just as irrelevant as what we say when it comes to encountering an RPI.

However...As the purchase of my Advance earlier today was influenced by the clear understanding at time of purchase that my +Conn ticket can be used in this manner,

In the manner of attending a gathering? It depends on whether it constitutes a BOJ or not. Simply meeting other people by itself won't constitute a BOJ but leaving station premises other than the circumstances defined does. Only you know what exactly you are doing so only you can judge. If you encounter an RPI, who questions what you did between STP and WAT for 5 hours, then what you say to them is a matter between you and them, but if you admit that you wandered around London for 5 hours then they may take the view that you did a BOJ and charge you appropriately (the charge may vary depending on circumstances)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . leave Derby on the 16:18 departure (Arrives STP about 18:00) but I won't be able to continue my journey from Waterloo until at least 23:00 because I'll be transferring across London on foot, and I'm not so certain about the road route between St. Pancras and Waterloo.

Most walkers would manage to walk St.P to Waterloo in just under an hour; in a quick and determined walking pace. Longer for the less hasty or less able.

 

[yorkie]

Although you can, in theory, have a 4 hour meal in one of the eateries at Waterloo station, without breaking your journey.

The topic is just getting daft really. The question has been answered (yes you can get a later train; no you cannot break your journey; definition of BOJ posted) and I really don't want to get into which excuses will or won't be accepted other than I have to say that claiming a 5 hour time to walk due to getting lost will be top of my list of unrealistic, daft excuses! Other than that, I really don't want to comment further and there's no need to.

 

[swt_passenger]

Hmm...I've never seen SWT advertising Advance fares whenever I've looked either on their website or in Avantix. I wonder why they don't issue them for the SWML, given that I havn't seen any MegaTrain activity for over two years now?

Huh? They do issue them for the SWML. That's what 'beyond Brockenhurst' means, ie Waterloo to Brockenhurst and further on:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/advance-fares.aspx

Don't understand your point about Megatrain either, I'm afraid. It is still operating as it always has, with the slight difference that they no longer have dedicated and labelled coaches... It's only a week or two since all that publicity in the national media about the couple PF'd at Eastleigh for stopping short...

 

[wibble]

SWT offer Advance fares from any National Rail station in London Zones 1-6 to stations Brokenhurst/Tisbury/Warminster and west of. A supplement of around £2 is added for travel from any station in Zones 1-6. (Much cheaper than some TOCs charge!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regards to the original post, there are no reservable services to Farnborough SX. The SWML is only reservable on the xx05 and xx35 Waterloo to Weymouth.

 

[swt_passenger]

SWT offer Advance fares from any National Rail station in London Zones 1-6 to stations Brokenhurst/Tisbury/Warminster and west of. A supplement of around £2 is added for travel from any station in Zones 1-6. (Much cheaper than some TOCs charge!)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With regards to the original post, there are no reservable services to Farnborough SX. The SWML is only reservable on the xx05 and xx35 Waterloo to Weymouth.

SWT Advance gets you a specified train only though, they no longer do seat reservations since Dec 2009.

 

[wibble]

SWT Advance gets you a specified train only though, they no longer do seat reservations since Dec 2009.

The service is still reservable, even if SWT don't offer seat reservations.

 

[Broken Viking]

You can't "break your journey" on an Advance ticket. It's up to you to decide how exactly your gathering fits in with that.

I understand that an Advance can't be broken, but surely that refers to the Advance portion of the journey alone...Doesn't it?

I understand that if I, say, jumped off the train at Loughborough to have a smoke, then my ticket wouldn't be valid on any subsequent train and I'd most likely be looking at a "stop short" PF as soon as I tried to pass the barriers (If any) at Loughborough station. However, once I've left the train and passed through the barriers at St. Pancras, that's the "Advance" portion of my journey over and done with.

From my current understanding of the Advance rules for a journey like this, my "binding" to the time restrictions of the Advance ticket ends as soon as I've arrived at St. Pancras station on my booked service. As the SWT portion of my journey is a seperate product sold along with my EMT Advance - And the LUL transfer included as a courtesy for connecting the two journeys together - Surely the time that I choose to continue from St. Pancras and/or Waterloo stations is entirely up to me...Or so my current understanding of the rules leads me to believe!
That said...If I've made a right chicken-up in understanding the rules for Advance + Connections type tickets, then please let me know ASAP. After reading about Prof Fares Nonsense in the other thread (Read the initials! ) I'd rather not find myself with a PF and a second fare because I've gone and read the NCoC wrong! hock:

Farewell for now, and thanks again for all the info thus far!
>> Death <<

 

[MCR247]

But the whole ticket is an advance ticket?

 

[yorkie]

But the whole ticket is an advance ticket?

Exactly.

You aren't allowed BOJ on an Advance ticket. This is one ticket, one product.

You are allowed, as far as I can determine, to have a meal at Waterloo or St Pancras, but you aren't allowed, as far as I can determine, to have a meal at a random restaurant somewhere else, or go sightseeing in London, for example. What you are/aren't allowed do when BOJ is prohibited may be open to interpretation.

 

[John @ home]

The subject of non-reserved (or non-reservable) connections with Advance tickets seems to crop up about once a fortnight at present!

It may help Death to read my contribution in post #3 of this thread in November 2009. My opinion on this subject has not changed since that date.

 

[Broken Viking]

But the whole ticket is an advance ticket?

You aren't allowed BOJ on an Advance ticket. This is one ticket, one product.

Ahh...It's starting to look like I might've misinterpereted what exactly an Advance + Connections ticket actually is! hock:

Here's how I'm led to believe my ticket is formed, going on what I've learned about Advance fares thus far:

• 1x Advance DBY - STP on East Midlands as booked. Because Advance fares can only be (As far as I understand) issued for individual TOCs, this part has to be processed as an AP fare for the EMT segment alone.
• 1x SDS WAT - FNB on South West Trains, valid only on date shown. Because SWT don't do Advance fares on this flow to my knowlege, it isn't possible for a second Advance to be issued for this section. Therefore an alternative ticket (A one day single, I presume) would need to be issued to cover this segment.
• 1x transfer TRM - TRM (London Underground) of the kind normally issued for journeys booked through London.

I suppose - Given that I've already bought my tickets - I'll have to just sit tight, wait for them to arrive, see what kind of vouchers it's composed of, and what endorsements are given upon them. Given that AToC are trying to clear up ambiguities in the ticketing system (And implementing rises by stealth whilst doing so, admittedly! ) I would expect my SWT portion to be endorsed "Valid only on 19:09 departure" or something like that, if the static time Advance restrictions do indeed apply to that portion as well.

You are allowed, as far as I can determine, to have a meal at Waterloo or St Pancras, but you aren't allowed, as far as I can determine, to have a meal at a random restaurant somewhere else, or go sightseeing in London, for example. What you are/aren't allowed do when BOJ is prohibited may be open to interpretation.

The example that ye give is easy to follow though, given that Use of station facilities doesn't constitute a BOJ under any circumstances - And neither does a scheduled connection involving different stations. A transfer between Birmingham New St and Moor St would fit the latter example.

That said, what's done on cross-station transfers and whether it constitutes BOJ or not isn't that easy to define. If I'm booked to change between BHM and BMO as above, enjoying a cigarette whilst walking to BMO wouldn't class as BOJ; It's simply me benefitting from smoking permissions on a permitted move through a public space.
On the other hand, let's say that I used my connection time to do some quick shopping in the Bullring or Pallasades whilst changing stations. Although I'm still transferring between those two stations, my actions might constitute BOJ as neither shopping centre (Even though the Pallasades is built on top of New St) is officially part of the station facilities!

I'm not intending to split hairs over the rules regarding BOJ, of course...But it seems that some parts of the NCoC still remain about as clear to some of us as a Welsh morning fog. Gods only know how the average passenger is supposed to understand and comply with them at every turn... hock:

It may help Death to read my contribution in post #3 of this thread in November 2009. My opinion on this subject has not changed since that date.

Thanks for the link, John! I had a read of it before typing this reply, and will give it another read later on to double-check that it does answer some of my questions!

Farewell for now, and many thanks once again!
>> Death <<