Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[HamworthyGoods]

Looks like they've got two choices then. Train the crew and make some use of the units they're paying for, or hand them back and pay the termination fine. Guess they'll go with whichever is the lower.

Or you can keep them on lease and not train the crew (and thus not use them) is another option, depends what’s cheaper to keep the lease costs or termination.

 

[Westerndiesels]

Thanks for your help Delw. Will try again.

 

[43096]

Or you can keep them on lease and not train the crew (and thus not use them) is another option, depends what’s cheaper to keep the lease costs or termination.

Just be ready for the headlines when the press find out they're paying for trains that have been refurbished and re-engineered and have no intention of using.

 

[Bald Rick]

Looks like they've got two choices then. Train the crew and make some use of the units they're paying for, or hand them back and pay the termination fine. Guess they'll go with whichever is the lower.

Or you can keep them on lease and not train the crew (and thus not use them) is another option, depends what’s cheaper to keep the lease costs or termination.

Almost certainly the right answer. The crew training alone would have been a decent sum. Avoiding the costs of maintenance, variable lease charges, variable track access, traction electricity etc will easily add up to a few million a year.

 

[Westerndiesels]

The Weymouth pic promised.

 

[Bald Rick]

Just be ready for the headlines when the press find out they're paying for trains that have been refurbished and re-engineered and have no intention of using.

Replied to with a ‘no one could have predicted the pandemic; as demand has reduced we have worked with the DfT to find ways of reducing costs to offer better value for money for the taxpayer with minimal impact to our customers. Reluctantly, we have decided that these 34 year old, high maintenance trains are past their best and will now get a well earned retirement. Meanwhile we look forward to welcoming back our passengers on to our modern fleet of airconditioned trains this summer, with many routes soon to see our brand new Arterio 100mph commuter trains”

Perhaps I should get a career in railway PR

 

[northernbelle]

Replied to with a ‘no one could have predicted the pandemic; as demand has reduced we have worked with the DfT to find ways of reducing costs to offer better value for money for the taxpayer with minimal impact to our customers. Reluctantly, we have decided that these 34 year old, high maintenance trains are past their best and will now get a well earned retirement. Meanwhile we look forward to welcoming back our passengers on to our modern fleet of airconditioned trains this summer, with many routes soon to see our brand new Arterio 100mph commuter trains”

Perhaps I should get a career in railway PR

Yep, bang on! You're hired!

 

[Mainline421]

Looks like they've got two choices then. Train the crew and make some use of the units they're paying for, or hand them back and pay the termination fine. Guess they'll go with whichever is the lower.

You're forgetting that to run services at 2019 levels (not even the enhanced one pre-covid 2020) this December they will need to source something.

Replied to with a ‘no one could have predicted the pandemic; as demand has reduced we have worked with the DfT to find ways of reducing costs to offer better value for money for the taxpayer with minimal impact to our customers. Reluctantly, we have decided that these 34 year old, high maintenance trains are past their best and will now get a well earned retirement. Meanwhile we look forward to welcoming back our passengers on to our modern fleet of airconditioned trains this summer, with many routes soon to see our brand new Arterio 100mph commuter trains”

Perhaps I should get a career in railway PR

That won't go down well in Portsmouth and areas along the Direct.

 

[northernbelle]

You're forgetting that to run services at 2019 levels (not even the enhanced one pre-covid 2020) this December they will need to source something.

That won't go down well in Portsmouth and areas along the Direct.

It's true to say that the desire for the Direct was something better than 2+3 seated Desiros. At the time, 442s seemed to be the only option to rectify that within the timescales needed.

The landscape all round has now changed - I do wonder about those 2+2 seated 350s operating on the WCML and soon to be replaced - opportunity for a 'long distance' sub-fleet of 450s now that seating capacity is probably not the biggest requirement? Would be very advantageous in terms of standardisation for maintenance and crew competence.

 

[swt_passenger]

It's true to say that the desire for the Direct was something better than 2+3 seated Desiros. At the time, 442s seemed to be the only option to rectify that within the timescales needed.

The landscape all round has now changed - I do wonder about those 2+2 seated 350s operating on the WCML and soon to be replaced - opportunity for a 'long distance' sub-fleet of 450s now that seating capacity is probably not the biggest requirement? Would be very advantageous in terms of standardisation for maintenance and crew competence.

The 2+2 350s aren’t being replaced though, only the 350/2 which are 3+2 and currently AC only...

 

[43096]

The landscape all round has now changed - I do wonder about those 2+2 seated 350s operating on the WCML and soon to be replaced - opportunity for a 'long distance' sub-fleet of 450s now that seating capacity is probably not the biggest requirement? Would be very advantageous in terms of standardisation for maintenance and crew competence.

The 2+2 Desiros that are being replaced out of Euston are the 3+2 seated 350/2 version.

 

[northernbelle]

The 2+2 350s aren’t being replaced though, only the 350/2 which are 3+2 and currently AC only...

Hadn't spotted that - refitting with 2+2 and conversion to dual voltage or DC-only is far from insurmountable though and potentially worth investing in to get the efficiencies of a standard fleet.

 

[43096]

Hadn't spotted that - refitting with 2+2 and conversion to dual voltage or DC-only is far from insurmountable though and potentially worth investing in to get the efficiencies of a standard fleet.

Worth investing in when you've already got investment in the 442s that has to be paid for regardless?

 

[northernbelle]

Worth investing in when you've already got investment in the 442s that has to be paid for regardless?

It depends who's paying!

 

[Journeyman]

Worth investing in when you've already got investment in the 442s that has to be paid for regardless?

The biggest problems with the 442s are training and getting them working reliably. Under current difficult circumstances, there's not much incentive to throw money at solving those problems.

 

[43096]

It depends who's paying!

Ultimately, we are, as taxpayers.

Taking 3 options, it's something like this:
442s: re-engineering & refurbishment already paid, remaining cost is (largely) training
350s: re-engineering & refurbishment to pay for, minimal (to point of no) crew training needed
458s: re-gearing & refurbishment to pay for (but less risk than re-engineering), crew training needed

 

[Bald Rick]

You're forgetting that to run services at 2019 levels (not even the enhanced one pre-covid 2020) this December they will need to source something.

It’s brave to assume SWR will be back at 2019 levels of service in the peak any time soon.

How did SWR / SWT manage without the 442s back before 2018?

 

[northernbelle]

It’s brave to assume SWR will be back at 2019 levels of service in the peak any time soon.

How did SWR / SWT manage without the 442s back before 2018?

By making Pompey Direct passengers use 2+3 seated 450s. The 442s were also to help facilitate the fleet shuffle and the introduction of additional services and increased train lengths.

 

[theironroad]

Let's not forget that some of the am peak trains arriving at Waterloo from suburbia and further such as Woking, Guildford, Farnborough Basingstoke were massively overcrowded pre pandemic.

Dropping 20% from some of these trains would still leave them very full indeed and after a year of people being told to stay 2 metres aways from everyone, there's going to be some reluctance to cram in again.

While Hendy, RDG etc al maybe keen to cut trains in peak to keep improved performance, capacity which allows people to travel without being stood next to someone's armpit is going to be needed.

 

[Nym]

SWR won't have spent it - will be the leasing company which actually owns them.

It will mean that they aren't likely to terminate the lease without a massive charge, though!

You might find it actually is the ToC paying for it. Not everything is down to the ROSCO

 

[TEW]

It’s brave to assume SWR will be back at 2019 levels of service in the peak any time soon.

How did SWR / SWT manage without the 442s back before 2018?

Exactly. The 442s were barely in use in 2019 anyway, when they were it was a few diagrams and you had the Desiro refurbishment ongoing taking some units out. 701 introduction should free up some 450s from the Windsor side too. The 442s were needed for extra services had committed to introduce in their franchise, extra services very unlikely to ever be introduced now.

 

[Val3ntine]

arriving at Waterloo from suburbia

From Suburbia haha, would think they would be massively overcrowded sounds like a bargain journey for commuting. Wonder what house prices are like there

 

[DB]

You might find it actually is the ToC paying for it. Not everything is down to the ROSCO

Can you give any examples where a TOC has directly paid for retractioning of stock owned by a ROSCO?

 

[spark001uk]

...The 442s were barely in use in 2019 anyway, when they were it was a few diagrams...

Wasn't that because only a few pairs were in traffic back then?
As I understood it, their initial idea once all 9 sets of 10 were in service was to cover the (then) half hourly pdl fast diagrams, and release desiros for other duties. One wonders when (or if?) they'll return to two 1Pxx and two 2Pxx per hour anytime soon, let alone still need the displaced desiros elsewhere?
As theironroad says, even when passenger numbers recover, there will be waryness of being in close proximity to others, vaccinated or not.!

 

[Nym]

Can you give any examples where a TOC has directly paid for retractioning of stock owned by a ROSCO?

Plenty. But it's all commercially sensitive information.

Companies like new northern have a company wide image being "refurbished" onto their fleet that is across 3 or 4 ROSCOs for example.

 

[TEW]

Wasn't that because only a few pairs were in traffic back then?
As I understood it, their initial idea once all 9 sets of 10 were in service was to cover the (then) half hourly pdl fast diagrams, and release desiros for other duties. One wonders when (or if?) they'll return to two 1Pxx and two 2Pxx per hour anytime soon, let alone still need the displaced desiros elsewhere?
As theironroad says, even when passenger numbers recover, there will be waryness of being in close proximity to others, vaccinated or not.!

It was, yes. The additional services Desiros were needed to be released for are just not going to be introduced any time in the near future. Cutbacks from the 2019 timetable are more likely than any extra services being introduced from it. There has finally been some realisation that the fundamental cause of the unreliability of the SWR timetable at peak times was trying to squeeze too many trains in on the available infrastructure. A slightly reduced but more reliable and punctual service is likely long term.

 

[Mainline421]

Exactly. The 442s were barely in use in 2019 anyway, when they were it was a few diagrams and you had the Desiro refurbishment ongoing taking some units out. 701 introduction should free up some 450s from the Windsor side too. The 442s were needed for extra services had committed to introduce in their franchise, extra services very unlikely to ever be introduced now.

The 442s were needed to allow 450s to displace other stock so that the 455s, 458s, and 707s can be withdrawn after the 701s are introduced. Even without the extra services, I'd be surprised if they had enough to cover everything without needing to retain a micro-fleet of one of these. The 707s have already started leaving for Southeastern, so all things considered the 442s may be a good option now (even though they weren't back in 2017).

 

[pompeyfan]

I believe in May SWR are going back to their August 2020 timetable, so there will be no need for the 442s. This should see reintroduction of through Exeter and Weymouth services, but the Pompey line will still only have 1 fast and 1 stopper. The 2Bxx service group also loses out as they still only finish at Southampton. I’ve not had time to assess the suburban and Windsor groups.

 

[DB]

Companies like new northern have a company wide image being "refurbished" onto their fleet that is across 3 or 4 ROSCOs for example.

So? That gives no indication of who is paying for it. I assume you mean the new seats, etc, rather than the sticky logos on the outside.

And it's all fairly minor anyway compared to the retractioning work on the 442s.

 

[43096]

So? That gives no indication of who is paying for it.

I assume you mean the new seats, etc, rather than the sticky logos on the outside.

There are also differences in spec between different ROSCO fleets on Northern e.g. the Porterbrook 158s retain their original seats. Different sites are also being used for work on different ROSCO fleets.