Class 442s - Now at the end of the road and to be withdrawn permanently

[pompeyfan]

Numerous problems they were too -

- They were only allowed into a limited number of platforms at Waterloo due to the gap between the train and platform on the curve.
- They can't serve Clapham Junction on the up at all
- They have to be routed on the UMF / DMF between Waterloo - Basingstoke because they risk fouling most of the platforms
- They can't operate on any routes other than Portsmouth via Guildford / Poole.
- Said routing issues mean they need two drivers in the cab (one to keep a list of route restrictions handy). Obviously for as long as social distancing is a thing this won't happen.
- They can't be split / joined in service
- If the air suspension on them deflates for any reason, they're unable to be moved due to routing restrictions and have to await the attendance of a fitter. For a while they ran with a fitter on board due to the risk of this happening.

A lot of those restrictions were eased as time went on, with services calling at Clapham. I also believe that only Brookwood and Basingstoke P1 having any kind of restriction. Although they were to be allocated to their set diagram there was nothing to physically stop them being used on the 1Txx service group as long as Shawford was omitted.
ASLEF were very close to actually dropping the two persons in the cab rule.

 

[DelW]

IIRC part of the rationale for the reintroduction of the 442s was that they would allow 450s to be moved away from the Portsmouth Direct, to replace 458s going off lease. If that's right, would abandoning the 442s possibly have implications for the 458 withdrawal? With the present reduced timetable there may be plenty of units spare, but at some point I would hope we'll be back to a better Portsmouth timetable than the current one.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

IIRC part of the rationale for the reintroduction of the 442s was that they would allow 450s to be moved away from the Portsmouth Direct, to replace 458s going off lease. If that's right, would abandoning the 442s possibly have implications for the 458 withdrawal? With the present reduced timetable there may be plenty of units spare, but at some point I would hope we'll be back to a better Portsmouth timetable than the current one.

Class 458s are due (and always were) to be replaced by the new Class 701s.

 

[pompeyfan]

I still wouldn’t write off the possibility of the 350/2s being reconfigured to a 2+2 set up but that is purely speculation and not based on any evidence.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

So what would the alternative units be? Desiros are no longer in production so a follow on order of 444s is out of the equation leaving only bombardier Aventura units. Seeing as tho the SWR order is for suburban units to standardise and replace the myriad of 455, 458 and 707s are we in danger of generating a sub fleet of 450s or 720s with adapted interiors to replace the 442s on their intended work?
Suppose driver familiarity won't be an issue at least...

 

[TEW]

With the likelihood of services running at a reduced level for a while there probably wouldn't be any need for replacement units. The SWR franchise had originally planned to introduce more services, but that's now very unlikely.

 

[theironroad]

Pig iron, perhaps

Oink oink

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Mar 2021 ==

So what would the alternative units be? Desiros are no longer in production so a follow on order of 444s is out of the equation leaving only bombardier Aventura units. Seeing as tho the SWR order is for suburban units to standardise and replace the myriad of 455, 458 and 707s are we in danger of generating a sub fleet of 450s or 720s with adapted interiors to replace the 442s on their intended work?
Suppose driver familiarity won't be an issue at least...

Or the possibility not 701s being allowed to roam more widely, not ideal for longer distance as intended more for mass standing, but with toilets already provided , can't see why couldn't happen.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Potential 442 replacements:
- 350/2s or dedicated pool of 450s with 2-2 seating and reclassify as something like 451

- Keep 458s, fit 2-2 seating and carpets (rumours of 350/2s fitted with batteries or hydrogen or whatever possibly for the WoE services replacing 159s)

- Cascade rest of 444s to the PDL and order third rail intercity Aventra 730s for SWML services

- 365s as a temporary measure until a permanent replacement is decided like a new fleet in the future

 

[DB]

Keep 458s, fit 2-2 seating and carpets (rumours of 350/2s fitted with batteries or hydrogen or whatever possibly for the WoE services replacing 159s)

The 458s already have 2+2 seating since thier last refurbishment.

 

[Domh245]

Potential 442 replacements:

You missed the option about realising that through the reduced travel demand, there's no need for the units anymore (peak extra trains can be cancelled, units can be made free for any other services by shortening 12 cars to 8 cars, etc) - at least for several years at which point units can be procured alongside a replacement for the 158/9s

 

[43096]

The 458s already have 2+2 seating since thier last refurbishment.

But are now only geared for 75mph.

 

[swt_passenger]

IIRC part of the rationale for the reintroduction of the 442s was that they would allow 450s to be moved away from the Portsmouth Direct, to replace 458s going off lease. If that's right, would abandoning the 442s possibly have implications for the 458 withdrawal? With the present reduced timetable there may be plenty of units spare, but at some point I would hope we'll be back to a better Portsmouth timetable than the current one.

The 450s were not being fully replaced on the Portsmouth direct, the plan was that the 442s would operate about half the service, only the fastest trains, and the rest would be 12.450 or 10.444.

It was never a case of removing all the 450s from the route, with far more trains than now doing the whole route at 4 tph, and additional peak extras on top. Of course that enhanced timetable was pre-Covid.

 

[DB]

You missed the option about realising that through the reduced travel demand, there's no need for the units anymore (peak extra trains can be cancelled, units can be made free for any other services by shortening 12 cars to 8 cars, etc) - at least for several years at which point units can be procured alongside a replacement for the 158/9s

The reduction in numbers is not likely to last until the 159s are due for replacement - they are good for probably another 10 years yet.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

- 365s as a temporary measure until a permanent replacement is decided like a new fleet in the future

It has been explained a number of times 365s will not be returning to the 3rd rail without considerable expensive and reverse engineering - all the DC equipment including Wiring Looms was destructively removed and scrapped.

 

[southern442]

dedicated pool of 450s with 2-2 seating and reclassify as something like 451

This has been discussed in other threads as an option before, and it sounds sensible to me, but there would be no need for a whole new class, just a sub-class.

- Keep 458s, fit 2-2 seating and carpets (rumours of 350/2s fitted with batteries or hydrogen or whatever possibly for the WoE services replacing 159s)

Unlikely but I wouldn't complain!

- Cascade rest of 444s to the PDL and order third rail intercity Aventra 730s for SWML services

The number of 444s you'd need for PDL services wouldn't require the whole fleet. Plus, the intercity end-door style layout of these units is probably best suited to the longer SWML services.

365s as a temporary measure until a permanent replacement is decided like a new fleet in the future

Replace a failed, big and complicated, near-life-expired unit conversion with... a slightly less life expired but still big and complicated unit conversion?

 

[DelW]

The 450s were not being fully replaced on the Portsmouth direct, the plan was that the 442s would operate about half the service, only the fastest trains, and the rest would be 12.450 or 10.444.

It was never a case of removing all the 450s from the route, with far more trains than now doing the whole route at 4 tph, and additional peak extras on top. Of course that enhanced timetable was pre-Covid.

Yes, I should have said "would allow some 450s to be moved away ..."

I suppose it's unlikely that any decision will be made about the future of the intended 4tph timetable on the Direct until it's become clearer when, and how much, traffic will return. It'll be disappointing though if the promise is broken again - I think SWT made the same promise early in their tenure, only to end up having a mess of a timetable with the Guildford - Haslemere shuttles.

I did manage to get one trip on a 442 pre-Covid, albeit at the third or fourth attempt (all the earlier services having been cancelled or terminated short due to failures). Maybe that will turn out to have been a unique experience .

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Cheers for your input and informing me of some points.

I wasn't aware of the 365's third rail capability was removed, I assumed it'd be ready to go like the 700 so could have been perfect for temporary service like they did for ScotRail.

I wasn't sure if all 458s have 2+2 seating as there may be some still with 3+2, now I accept this is no longer the case. Pity about the 75mph limitation. Still too young for scrap, if no other operators would take on the 458s then these may as well stay on SWR for replacing 442s on the PDL, then again there's the lower maximum speed of the 458s.

If all 444s are not required on the PDL, as the Desiro UK is no longer manufactured so it is not possible for many new additional 444s to be ordered. Any new for example 730s would need to be made compatible to couple with 444s or work the timetabling to separate the 730s from 444s as possible - can a 730 "rescue" a broken down 444?

It could be generally agreed it is 2+2 converted 450s or 350/2s seem to be more likely replacements - interesting post covid times ahead!

 

[swt_passenger]

[…]

It could be generally agreed it is 2+2 converted 450s or 350/2s seem to be more likely replacements - interesting post covid times ahead!

I don’t believe it is “generally agreed” at all. It’s just as likely that with the overall reduced demand that the extra trains wont be needed at all, because other related mainline timetable alterations, (eg 4 tph Portsmouth, west of Southampton changes, the second Portsmouth to Southampton semifast etc), won’t now happen.

Given that probability, 2+2 seating on more Portsmouth trains may just become a footnote in a cancelled franchise agreement that was overtaken by events.

I think it‘s going to be unwise to consider more ”2+2” as being a guaranteed end result now...

 

[RichSwitch]

It’s about time the whole project was put to bed. These units should have been quietly retired when they finished on the Brighton line.
I know there is a lot of emotional attachment to them in the industry, but that isn’t reason enough to keep them going especially with the drop in passenger numbers post-Covid. They won’t be needed.

 

[Journeyman]

It’s about time the whole project was put to bed. These units should have been quietly retired when they finished on the Brighton line.
I know there is a lot of emotional attachment to them in the industry, but that isn’t reason enough to keep them going especially with the drop in passenger numbers post-Covid. They won’t be needed.

Agreed. There seems to be an obsession with trying to keep these units operating, despite them not really being suitable for much these days. All the features in them that made them attractive have been refurbished out of them anyway.

 

[Nym]

Someone in the DfT must love them...

From a technical standpoint, they're literally a heap of excrement electrically and mechanically. There isn't even really a redeeming feature from the BR build.

 

[Journeyman]

Someone in the DfT must love them...

From a technical standpoint, they're literally a heap of excrement electrically and mechanically. There isn't even really a redeeming feature from the BR build.

Yeah - most Mark 3s have really badly deteriorated, and many are getting into Swiss cheese territory as far as corrosion goes.

 

[DorkingMain]

With the likelihood of services running at a reduced level for a while there probably wouldn't be any need for replacement units. The SWR franchise had originally planned to introduce more services, but that's now very unlikely.

This is pretty much it. The enhanced timetable did run for a while back in 2019, back when the 442s were temporarily withdrawn. All it resulted in was a few peak extras from Woking - Waterloo running as 8 v 12, and a couple of 455s covering 450 diagrams to Windsor / Reading.

Combination of peak extras being reduced indefinitely post-COVID + 701s nearly eliminating the use of 450s on the Windsor side means the demand for them probably isn't there in the short-to-medium term anyway.

 

[fgwrich]

I don’t believe it is “generally agreed” at all. It’s just as likely that with the overall reduced demand that the extra trains wont be needed at all, because other related mainline timetable alterations, (eg 4 tph Portsmouth, west of Southampton changes, the second Portsmouth to Southampton semifast etc), won’t now happen.

Off topic, but a shame if that's the case. I'm due to start a new job down that way soon, to which the new second Portsmouth - Sotton service would have been quite handy for, the current service being unattractive and slow. Looks like I'll be driving down for that then

 

[TEW]

This is pretty much it. The enhanced timetable did run for a while back in 2019, back when the 442s were temporarily withdrawn. All it resulted in was a few peak extras from Woking - Waterloo running as 8 v 12, and a couple of 455s covering 450 diagrams to Windsor / Reading.

Combination of peak extras being reduced indefinitely post-COVID + 701s nearly eliminating the use of 450s on the Windsor side means the demand for them probably isn't there in the short-to-medium term anyway.

Even in 2019 there was some stuff missing that SWR had planned with the timetable, things which will likely now never happen. Portsmouth to Bournemouth/Weymouth, 4tph all day Waterloo to Portsmouth via Guildford, 4tph to Reading and Windsor, more peak extras on a number of routes. Even before Covid it seemed like many of these ideas were non starters due to power supply limitations. Post Covid, with the benefits of running a reduced timetable far more reliably and punctually, it seems incredibly unlikely enough extra services will be introduced to make the use of 442s necessary for the timetable.

 

[swt_passenger]

Off topic, but a shame if that's the case. I'm due to start a new job down that way soon, to which the new second Portsmouth - Sotton service would have been quite handy for, the current service being unattractive and slow. Looks like I'll be driving down for that then

Well I’d have to caveat my post that it’s only based on my own suspicions about it, because none of the consulted new service patterns seem to have been mentioned by SWR recently.

But @TEW has just come up with a similar list, (plus the Readings), and I‘m sure he has the inside knowledge...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Someone in the DfT must love them...

From a technical standpoint, they're literally a heap of excrement electrically and mechanically. There isn't even really a redeeming feature from the BR build.

Thats why SWR have spent millions retractioning them albeit its now waste of money but contracts are contracts

 

[DB]

Thats why SWR have spent millions retractioning them albeit its now waste of money but contracts are contracts

SWR won't have spent it - will be the leasing company which actually owns them.

It will mean that they aren't likely to terminate the lease without a massive charge, though!

 

[Journeyman]

SWR won't have spent it - will be the leasing company which actually owns them.

It will mean that they aren't likely to terminate the lease without a massive charge, though!

Yeah, presumably SWR have committed to a minimum lease term, and they could be held liable for that.

 

[spark001uk]

Looks like they've got two choices then. Train the crew and make some use of the units they're paying for, or hand them back and pay the termination fine. Guess they'll go with whichever is the lower.