Should Network Rail have wind farms?

[gerryuk]

Hypothetically a ECML train leaves Kings Cross to Aberdeen. How many wind turbines (the biggest powerful ones)would be needed along the line, to fully power the train all the way to Aberdeen? Its a windy day.
Does anybody have a idea how many turbines would be needed to power the entire electric side of the rail network? You do not need force 10 gales for turbines to work. Unlike solar turbines do not store power so many turbines that are not turning are switched off because they are not needed at that time.
Has Network rail ever looked at wind farms, they have more than enough land to site them on, although i am thinking the initial financial outlay would be prohibitive, without government help.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

They may be switched off because too much power is being produced, or because the wind is too strong or gusting heavily.

 

[221129]

they have more than enough land to site them on

Do they? I'm not sure that is remotely true, especially not enough to power the entire network!

 

[Snow1964]

Wind turbines come in different sizes, some of the smaller ones produce fraction of a Mw. But the biggest produce 2.5 - 3 Mw

From memory need a wind of at least 10-12mph to produce full power, and they are normally shut down if winds over about 45mph

So in theory 3 or 4 big turbines are enough, but wouldn’t be a very reliable power source as not always the right kind of wind (to paraphrase an old railway excuse)

 

[Elecman]

Also not many places where there is sufficient Network Rail land to actually site the big turbine masts on. Plus many issues with planning consents

 

[XAM2175]

What purpose would this serve that isn't served by the current process of Network Rail buying electricity from a retailer?

 

[HSTEd]

The railway should run a railway, not an electricity company.

There is a reason power grids became popular, because they avoid consumers of electricity having to trouble themselves with how it is produced.

 

[gerryuk]

What purpose does it serve homeowners who have solar / wind turbines on their homes? Well for a start, it cuts down their bills and many actually sell the surplus back to the grid. Although on a much bigger scale, why cant the railways go down the same road? There is no law that says you have to buy electricity from a retailer.

What purpose would this serve that isn't served by the current process of Network Rail buying electricity from a retailer?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

The railway should run a railway, not an electricity company.

What about homeowners should they not install solar / wind turbines, because as you say, "they are not an electric company"?

 

[221129]

What about homeowners should they not install solar / wind turbines, because as you say, "they are not an electric company"?

It's a completely different scenario.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

why cant the railways go down the same road?

There isn't the space? More infrastructure to go wrong, increased costs of maintenance and staffing in an already heavily subsidised business...

 

[Domh245]

There's an assertion in the first post that "they have more than enough land to site them on", but isn't most of said land operational railway? I certainly don't think there's excesses of (suitable!) space to build these on, and I think it goes without saying that building them above the track itself is a non-starter

 

[SynthD]

I expect they have the land in a basic calculation sense, not in the viable sense of having 10,000 spots for turbines that would likely be approved and are sensibly placed. Former goods yards in towns or a wide embankment in a AONB wouldn’t be used.
It’s still a good idea, even if wind is capable of coming to a halt.

 

[Snow1964]

I guess there are some parcels of land, some former yards in middle of nowhere, the middle of some triangular junctions etc that could be suitable.

 

[221129]

I guess there are some parcels of land, some former yards in middle of nowhere, the middle of some triangular junctions etc that could be suitable.

A lot of which are not actually NR land.

 

[Domh245]

I expect they have the land in a basic calculation sense, not in the viable sense of having 10,000 spots for turbines that would likely be approved and are sensibly placed. Former goods yards in towns or a wide embankment in a AONB wouldn’t be used.

Exactly my point! Most of the available land that isn't actual railway, especially as they've just sold off loads, is city centre stations, where turbines would neither be useful nor acceptable! The idea of installing PV panels is slightly more practical (and beneficially, more predictable than wind as well!)

 

[YorksLad12]

Wind turbines come in different sizes, some of the smaller ones produce fraction of a Mw. But the biggest produce 2.5 - 3 Mw

From memory need a wind of at least 10-12mph to produce full power, and they are normally shut down if winds over about 45mph

So in theory 3 or 4 big turbines are enough, but wouldn’t be a very reliable power source as not always the right kind of wind (to paraphrase an old railway excuse)

Also not many places where there is sufficient Network Rail land to actually site the big turbine masts on. Plus many issues with planning consents

While I am also of the persuasion that a railway company should concentrate on railway matters... smaller turbines and solar panels could be added to station buildings to reduce running costs there.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Modern wind turbines are very big. They may not be sited near dwellings or other buildings, for efficiency there need to be many in a group. Many are out in the sea, not visible from land. That is the best place for them, for turbines on land have destroyed many landscapes.

I think a railway is in the railway business, not the power generation business.

 

[Snow1964]

While I am also of the persuasion that a railway company should concentrate on railway matters... smaller turbines and solar panels could be added to station buildings to reduce running costs there.

Isn’t most of the roof of rebuilt Blackfriars station covered with solar panels, so this is already happening

There must be a number of railway embankments and cuttings facing the sun which could gain solar panels

 

[6Gman]

Wind turbines come in different sizes, some of the smaller ones produce fraction of a Mw. But the biggest produce 2.5 - 3 Mw

From memory need a wind of at least 10-12mph to produce full power, and they are normally shut down if winds over about 45mph

So in theory 3 or 4 big turbines are enough, but wouldn’t be a very reliable power source as not always the right kind of wind (to paraphrase an old railway excuse)

Actually you're paraphrasing a term coined by a journalist.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Mar 2021 ==

I guess there are some parcels of land, some former yards in middle of nowhere, the middle of some triangular junctions etc that could be suitable.

Getting to/from such sites for construction and maintenance could be a challenge to the operational railway though.

 

[gerryuk]

It seems to me that Network Rail have plenty of spare land up and down the country.


From Network Rail.....

“Network Rail owns a significant amount of land – approximately 51,700 hectares (127,800 acres), which it uses to operate and develop Britain’s railway infrastructure; that’s 20,000 miles of track, 30,000 bridges, tunnels and viaducts and the thousands of signals, level crossings and stations. We run 20 of the UK’s largest stations and own the land on which these and all of the other 2,500 stations in Britain sit on.

“All Network Rail land is classed as part of our operational estate. To release land for housing and development, we need to go through a consultation process to ensure that the land we are releasing is not required for future railway related, or other relevant stakeholder use.

“Network Rail has committed to releasing land for homes nationally to support the government’s housing goal of building 1.5 million homes between 2015 and 2022. We are committed to releasing land for around 12,000 homes by 2020.”

 

[Islineclear3_1]

So we've had diesel, electric, diesel-electric, bimode, trimode, battery, hydrogen...

Bring on the "hover"train; i.e. a train with massive wind turbines attached to the rear...

Strong wind...high speed, wind falls to a breeze...train slows to a crawl, no breeze...train fails due to lack of power...

 

[XAM2175]

It seems to me that Network Rail have plenty of spare land up and down the country.

Where? All that quote says is that they have an unspecified quantity of land in an unspecified number of parcels in unspecified locations that they might at some point in the future be able to declare surplus.

 

[Bald Rick]

Hypothetically a ECML train leaves Kings Cross to Aberdeen. How many wind turbines (the biggest powerful ones)would be needed along the line, to fully power the train all the way to Aberdeen? Its a windy day.
Does anybody have a idea how many turbines would be needed to power the entire electric side of the rail network? You do not need force 10 gales for turbines to work. Unlike solar turbines do not store power so many turbines that are not turning are switched off because they are not needed at that time.
Has Network rail ever looked at wind farms, they have more than enough land to site them on, although i am thinking the initial financial outlay would be prohibitive, without government help.

One would be more than enough (see below). Indeed one could power about 10 such trains, on average. Albeit the turbine would need to be carefully positioned, and set to ‘blow’ to get the train from Haymarket West Jn to Aberdeen.

To power the whole current electric rail network, on average for a year, assuming the wind turbines below, and assuming standard offshore ‘capacity factors’ (basically, how much electricity the turbine generates compared to its theoretical maximum due to variable wind conditions), you’d need 82.

But to correct a couple of things you mention:

1) solar panels do not ‘store’ power.
2) turbines are ‘switched off’ for three reasons a) maintenance / repair, b) too much or too little wind, c) the National Grid cannot accept the power being generated, because of insufficient demand nationally or locally. By chance, that will probably happen tonight in the next hour or so.
3) solar can be (and is) ‘switched off’ too

Finally, NR is involved in the ‘Riding Sunbeams’ Initiative, which is putting solar near to D.C. substations to help provide even cheaper electricity than the grid. However it can only ever be a small part of the power provision. You need at least 24,000 square metres of panels, and about half as much space again to position them correctly, to power 1 x Class 700 unit. That’s 6 football pitches worth, assuming a sunny day at 1300 in mid June. Solar Panels are notoriously less effective at other times of day / year / weather conditions. To power the whole network, on average for the year, you’d need something like 30-40 square kilometres of solar farm, and some very, very big batteries.

Wind turbines come in different sizes, some of the smaller ones produce fraction of a Mw. But the biggest produce 2.5 - 3 Mw

There’s wind turbines in service now at 7MW, and there are some on the way at 14MW (Siemens Gamesa, for the Sofia wind farm). These have a rotor diameter of 222m - the top of the rotor is at roughly the same height as the top floor of the Shard. Clearly, they can only be used offshore. They are much more efficient than a squadron of land based turbines, which are necessarily smaller.

Isn’t most of the roof of rebuilt Blackfriars station covered with solar panels, so this is already happening

Yes - and it provides about half the power the station needs - lighting, escalators, other electrical systems. It doesn’t power any trains.

 

[gerryuk]

I thought that solar panels stored all its power in batteries so you can use it when required?

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought that solar panels stored all its power in batteries so you can use it when required?

Batteries store the power. You can link them to Solar panels of course. But then you can link them to any form of electricity generation.

 

[AM9]

Batteries store the power. You can link them to Solar panels of course. But then you can link them to any form of electricity generation.

Great information as usual from your posts. I was going mention the solar storage statement but you've covered it perfectly. Just to inform the OP, there is really only one type of generation type that does have an inherent energy store (as opposed to the potential potential energy store of fossil fuels), and that is pumped storage a la Dinorwic, or if they ever get adopted, tidal storage schemes.

 

[billio]

I have read (in the Guardian) of a new type of vertical wind turbine to be installed on the O2 Arena. The makers of these turbines believe they are sufficiently efficient and compact to install on lamp posts. Larger versions of this design might be installed more easily alongside rail tracks. They would utilise the air disturbance caused by trains as well the natural wind.

Vertical wind turbines (Guardian)

 

[YorksLad12]

Isn’t most of the roof of rebuilt Blackfriars station covered with solar panels, so this is already happening

Yes - and it provides about half the power the station needs - lighting, escalators, other electrical systems. It doesn’t power any trains.

Perhaps not, but still useful. Every little helps, and frees up centrally-generated power for other uses (such as trains). Not one station, perhaps, but if all above-ground stations with suitable light did something similar...?

 

[AM9]

Perhaps not, but still useful. Every little helps, and frees up centrally-generated power for other uses (such as trains). Not one station, perhaps, but if all above-ground stations with suitable light did something similar...?

It would be cheaper to fund a few large wind farms which contribute to the grid total rather than thousands of low output installations, each of which would need considerable engineering just to mount any particular small design. Blackfriars was completely different as a new build in a high profile location. It also provides an effective north-light roof.

 

[Bald Rick]

It would be cheaper to fund a few large wind farms which contribute to the grid total rather than thousands of low output installations, each of which would need considerable engineering just to mount any particular small design. Blackfriars was completely different as a new build in a high profile location. It also provides an effective north-light roof.

Small scale solar can be (and is) useful if it can be used without needing a major connection to the DNO or Grid. This is where the riding sunbeams initiative works, as they can provide some fairly hefty power direct into the HV distribution system for third rail electrification, and thus don’t need to worry about being near a DNO / grid connection (or paying for one). Which makes it cheaper.

Wind is a different matter, as for maximum efficiency you need to have your turbines somewhere, err, windy. This is actually a little more difficult than it seems. And is why almost all new wind coming online now is offshore, where the wind is much more reliable, and stronger (particularly when the top of your turbine is 250m above the waves!)

 

[HSTEd]

Wind is a different matter, as for maximum efficiency you need to have your turbines somewhere, err, windy. This is actually a little more difficult than it seems. And is why almost all new wind coming online now is offshore, where the wind is much more reliable, and stronger (particularly when the top of your turbine is 250m above the waves!)

Also not many people to complain about their view in the middle of the North Sea!