Should Network Rail have wind farms?

[billio]

Great information as usual from your posts. I was going mention the solar storage statement but you've covered it perfectly. Just to inform the OP, there is really only one type of generation type that does have an inherent energy store (as opposed to the potential potential energy store of fossil fuels), and that is pumped storage a la Dinorwic, or if they ever get adopted, tidal storage schemes.

Some research is under way investigating the raising and lowering of large weights suspended in mine shafts. Perhaps railways could use very heavy trains pulled up inclines on disused lines using 'spare' electricity and then generating electricity when required through regenerative braking during their descent. Perhaps I should have left this post for a couple of weeks or so.

 

[HSTEd]

Some research is under way investigating the raising and lowering of large weights suspended in mine shafts. Perhaps railways could use very heavy trains pulled up inclines on disused lines using 'spare' electricity and then generating electricity when required through regenerative braking during their descent. Perhaps I should have left this post for a couple of weeks or so.

That has been proposed in the US, but we really don't have the height differences for it to work.

There is however this thing.

 

[John Webb]

.... or if they ever get adopted, tidal storage schemes.

Perhaps NR could develop a tidal generation scheme between Dawlish and Teignmouth which would give the coast and the railway protection from wave damage?

 

[Bald Rick]

There is however this thing.

Err, wow. I can’t believe that finding places to site and build up to 30 of those could possibly be cheaper than the proposed Coire Glas pumped storage project in Lochaber.

 

[HSTEd]

Err, wow. I can’t believe that finding places to site and build up to 30 of those could possibly be cheaper than the proposed Coire Glas pumped storage project in Lochaber.

Well unfortunately we don't have an unlimited supply of Coire Glas'

 

[AM9]

Also not many people to complain about their view in the middle of the North Sea!

But they've been quite happy to take power from coal-fired power stations that spoil more than just the view of others. Yes i know it's OT, but relevant to your comment.

 

[Class 170101]

2) turbines are ‘switched off’ for three reasons a) maintenance / repair, b) too much or too little wind, c) the National Grid cannot accept the power being generated, because of insufficient demand nationally or locally. By chance, that will probably happen tonight in the next hour or so.

Batteries store the power. You can link them to Solar panels of course. But then you can link them to any form of electricity generation.

Could you install batteries 'attached' to the wind farms to collect the energy as the wind blows (even at 2am) and discharge it at a later time when the wind isn't blowing or insufficiently to meet demand?

How long are we away from such a thing happening viably?

 

[JamesT]

Could you install batteries 'attached' to the wind farms to collect the energy as the wind blows (even at 2am) and discharge it at a later time when the wind isn't blowing or insufficiently to meet demand?

How long are we away from such a thing happening viably?

They exist already, in some places to some extent. For example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornsdale_Power_Reserve

However, when you start scaling up to country sized requirements, the numbers get rather large.
https://www.withouthotair.com/ is a good site discussing some of the challenges around moving to a renewable system. In the section on storage it talks about needing capacity for about 1200GWh to cope with a 5 day lull in wind power. The Australian battery site does about 0.2GWh and cost £90m.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could you install batteries 'attached' to the wind farms to collect the energy as the wind blows (even at 2am) and discharge it at a later time when the wind isn't blowing or insufficiently to meet demand?

How long are we away from such a thing happening viably?

That is most likely to happen at a local level, with small scale domestic installations of a few kWh, and with the use of batteries in Electric cars.

 

[D365]

That is most likely to happen at a local level, with small scale domestic installations of a few kWh, and with the use of batteries in Electric cars.

I’d be asking for some good money back to compensate me for the additional load cycles on my battery!

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d be asking for some good money back to compensate me for the additional load cycles on my battery!

And you’d get some! At current tariffs you’d easily make a fiver on each cycle, probably twice that.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

I think pumped storage can only have a small effect. Maybe turbines out at sea are the future, they could soon make power so cheap, there shall be no need to meter or charge for it, as was once said about nuclear power.

Seriously: saving power, using less, is the thing.

 

[BayPaul]

Simple solution to avoid putting up overhead electrification - mount a wind turbine on top of a train. Mount it on the front of the first carriage, folding backwards onto the roof of the train - with a 12 carriage train you could easily manage a 200m diameter 2-blade turbine. Simply fold it down for each bridge / tunnel etc.
What could possibly go wrong

 

[HSTEd]

I think pumped storage can only have a small effect. Maybe turbines out at sea are the future, they could soon make power so cheap, there shall be no need to meter or charge for it, as was once said about nuclear power.

Seriously: saving power, using less, is the thing.

If anything electricity consumption is expected to climb dramatically, simply because it will take up a more larger share of total energy use.
Even if energy use falls by a huge margin, as people like the Centre for Alternative Technologies propose (cut final energy use by more than half!)

 

[Bald Rick]

I think pumped storage can only have a small effect.

In this country yes, unless anyone fancies doing the rather outlandish proposal for Strathdearn. That would store enough to keep the whole country going for 11-16 days (assuming we have 9GW of nuclear, and someone laid a few very big cables from Tomatin to somewhere around Ratcliffe power station.

 

[BayPaul]

In this country yes, unless anyone fancies doing the rather outlandish proposal for Strathdearn. That would store enough to keep the whole country going for 11-16 days (assuming we have 9GW of nuclear, and someone laid a few very big cables from Tomatin to somewhere around Ratcliffe power station.

That's an interesting looking project. Pretty outlandish as you say, but a megaproject like this is an interesting concept for making the country zero carbon, as it would make renewables far more useful. A few tens of billions, and 40sq km of land doesn't seem a completely ridiculous price for national energy security, though multiple small projects are probably much more feasible.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's an interesting looking project. Pretty outlandish as you say, but a megaproject like this is an interesting concept for making the country zero carbon, as it would make renewables far more useful. A few tens of billions, and 40sq km of land doesn't seem a completely ridiculous price for national energy security, though multiple small projects are probably much more feasible.

It looks to me like the power generation version of super-crayoning.

 

[DerekC]

But they've been quite happy to take power from coal-fired power stations that spoil more than just the view of others. Yes i know it's OT, but relevant to your comment.

Ten or so years ago there was a project to build three smallish wind turbines in this part of the world. The protests were enormous. I dared stand up at a meeting and make the very point @AM9 makes - and got howled down by the assembled company. I don't think people in general used to have the least idea how their power was generated - but maybe that's changing a bit now, which is positive.

It looks to me like the power generation version of super-crayoning.

The railway network was crayoning in 1825 or thereabouts! Crayons are useful gadgets.

 

[BayPaul]

It looks to me like the power generation version of super-crayoning.

Well yes, I grant you that. But if the crayons were replaced by more moderately sized ones, that didn't try to solve an entire continent's issues in one go, then it just might be the sort of idea where there is a chance that the crayons get replaced by concrete one day, either there or elsewhere.

 

[billio]

Well yes, I grant you that. But if the crayons were replaced by more moderately sized ones, that didn't try to solve an entire continent's issues in one go, then it just might be the sort of idea where there is a chance that the crayons get replaced by concrete one day, either there or elsewhere.

Cement, as used in concrete, produces about 8% of the world's carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. We should avoid using it if we can, but I imagine that's hard to do in today's world. So wooden sleepers are the way to go ?

 

[HSTEd]

Cement, as used in concrete, produces about 8% of the world's carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. We should avoid using it if we can, but I imagine that's hard to do in today's world. So wooden sleepers are the way to go ?

Concrete emissions for structures like dams are negligible, almost all emissions from dams are from things like rotting wood in the impoundment.
The amoutn of cement used to build a dam is actually not that significant, especially compared to a giant battery project like the one proposed.

 

[quantinghome]

Surely it's better for Network Rail just to buy electricity off the grid. They're not a power company. If railway land was a convenient place to site wind turbines no doubt a power company would have approached them already.

 

[Bald Rick]

Surely it's better for Network Rail just to buy electricity off the grid. They're not a power company. If railway land was a convenient place to site wind turbines no doubt a power company would have approached them already.

Precisely!

And a power company has approached NR about solar panels on railway land - Riding Sunbeams.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Slightly OT, but is there a way the air pressure from trains entering tunnels at high speed could be harnessed to generate electricity? Putting fans and generators in the ventilation shafts at Kilsby, for example? Or maybe in the Channel Tunnel cross-passages?

 

[Bald Rick]

Slightly OT, but is there a way the air pressure from trains entering tunnels at high speed could be harnessed to generate electricity? Putting fans and generators in the ventilation shafts at Kilsby, for example? Or maybe in the Channel Tunnel cross-passages?

Well it could be done, but the energy produced would be in the realms of negligible, and you would be getting close to testing the law of the conservation of energy.

 

[HSTEd]

Best bet might be something like this (its a high speed railway line in Belgium)

 

[quantinghome]

Slightly OT, but is there a way the air pressure from trains entering tunnels at high speed could be harnessed to generate electricity? Putting fans and generators in the ventilation shafts at Kilsby, for example? Or maybe in the Channel Tunnel cross-passages?

That would just increase the resistance felt by the train.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Precisely!

And a power company has approached NR about solar panels on railway land - Riding Sunbeams.

Presumably the model is 3rd party investment backed against a long-term power purchase agreement from the railway

So in addition to using the railway property portfolio, you could foresee development of renewable generation on 3rd party land near the railway, with supply directly to the railway via a private wire.

So, to actually answer the question. No NR, should not have wind farms as project development, O&M etc... is a distraction from core business in both a financial and operational sense.
But yes, provided technical and regulatory issues can be overcome, NR could (and should) sign long-term contracts for wind power, delivered via PPAs and PWs where appropriate.

 

[Bald Rick]

Presumably the model is 3rd party investment backed against a long-term power purchase agreement from the railway

Yes

So in addition to using the railway property portfolio, you could foresee development of renewable generation on 3rd party land near the railway, with supply directly to the railway via a private wire.

Yes, but much more likely to be solar than wind.

But yes, provided technical and regulatory issues can be overcome, NR could (and should) sign long-term contracts for wind power, delivered via PPAs and PWs where appropriate.

As above!

 

[Horizon22]

As suggsted above, as opposed to wind farms, solar panels would probably be more suitable in some of these locations.