Suggestions regarding TfW Class 197 introduction

[Jez]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/caf-civity-for-tfw.182501/

The latest Modern Railways has a photo of the 1st completed class 197 which according to them is going to be tested on the North Wales mainline this spring

thats good news. I may pick up a copy next time im in WHSMITH.

Any idea when the plan is to introduce the first lot into service?

I guess they will be used in North Wales first before replacing the 175s in South Wales.

 

[Philip]

thats good news. I may pick up a copy next time im in WHSMITH. Any idea when the plan is to introduce the first lot into service? I guess they will be used in North Wales first before replacing the 175s in South Wales.

Perhaps Manchester-South Wales or Holyhead-Cardiff will see the first booked workings, because they serve the capital (and WAG headquarters!).

 

[craigybagel]

Perhaps Manchester-South Wales or Holyhead-Cardiff will see the first booked workings, because they serve the capital (and WAG headquarters!).

More likely something like Llandudno - Manchester, since it can be covered by one depot and it would be easy to replace units at Chester mid diagram if any issues arise.

 

[Anonymous10]

Perhaps Manchester-South Wales or Holyhead-Cardiff will see the first booked workings, because they serve the capital (and WAG headquarters!).

i doubt that

 

[Philip]

More likely something like Llandudno - Manchester, since it can be covered by one depot and it would be easy to replace units at Chester mid diagram if any issues arise.

Where will the 175s be stabled/have their maintenance if the 197s are going to be working routes around Chester from the start?

 

[craigybagel]

Where will the 175s be stabled/have their maintenance if the 197s are going to be working routes around Chester from the start?

The same place they are now? I'm not aware of any ruling that when Chester changes over from Alstom to CAF they will suddenly be forbidden from ever touching their former units ever again?

 

[Caaardiff]

Depends on the heavy maintenance regime and numbers of units stabling there. If there's a long gap between first CAFs arriving and 175s leaving then it could become problematic. Also depends on contractual agreements if transferred Alstom staff are permitted to do the maintenance or if it will have to be outsourced.

 

[craigybagel]

Given the original timetable showed a period of about a year between the first 197 entering service and the last 175 leaving (and 2 years before the 158s) you can bet some kind of transition plan has been found to get around this.

Incidentally there is a location lined up for the 197s to be kept during their testing phase, but I won't be sharing it until it's public knowledge.

 

[Bikeman78]

The original plan is to move the 175's to another TOC once the 197's arrive, as the Chester depot will be a CAF facility. They could work out of Longsight but the refurbished 175's look so good I wonder if TFW may want to keep them for longer than planned.

There's a lot of logistical problems ahead for TFW as they are getting 77 197's and Chester depot isn't very big & Mach depot isn't that big either. They want 21 ERTMS equipped 197's, so I wonder the remaining 56 units will be stabled ?

Same places as now, Carmarthen, Cardiff Canton, Shrewsbury and Holyhead, to name a few. I think the most challenging group of services will be those that go to Birmingham. Trains split and join at Machynlleth or Shrewsbury. Trains into Birmingham from Holyhead form and Aberystwyth train back out. Either the service will need an extensive re-write or it will have to switch from 158s to 197s in one big bang.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same places as now, Carmarthen, Cardiff Canton, Shrewsbury and Holyhead, to name a few. I think the most challenging group of services will be those that go to Birmingham. Trains split and join at Machynlleth or Shrewsbury. Trains into Birmingham from Holyhead form and Aberystwyth train back out. Either the service will need an extensive re-write or it will have to switch from 158s to 197s in one big bang.

I might be wrong, but I'm sure I recall reading that there is an intention to decouple those so that you're not stuck with 2-car units on the North Wales Coast services. With hourly Aberystwyths planned there isn't the need anyway.

 

[Bikeman78]

I might be wrong, but I'm sure I recall reading that there is an intention to decouple those so that you're not stuck with 2-car units on the North Wales Coast services. With hourly Aberystwyths planned there isn't the need anyway.

The two groups of services still need to be linked through. If the train from Aberystwyth were to form the train back to Aberystwyth at Birmingham International, it would have roughly 80 minutes there. As an iterim solution they could abandon splitting and joining at Shrewsbury and Machynlleth. So you'd have pairs of 158s or 197s running Holyhead-Birmingham-Aberystwyth-Birmingham-Holyhead. Machynlleth to Pwllheli would run as a separate shuttle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The two groups of services still need to be linked through. If the train from Aberystwyth were to form the train back to Aberystwyth at Birmingham International, it would have roughly 80 minutes there.

Not with the planned hourly Aber, it would be 20 minutes. Not sure what they'll do with regard to the second (Pwllheli) set though, is there anywhere to take it off and hide it?

 

[Bikeman78]

Not with the planned hourly Aber, it would be 20 minutes. Not sure what they'll do with regard to the second (Pwllheli) set though, is there anywhere to take it off and hide it?

Wouldn't the extra Aber trains be shuttles to Shrewsbury? Or will Birmingham to Holyhead be abandoned in favour of hourly through trains to Aber? That would make the diagramming a lot easier. If that is the case, I'd expect Aber trains that don't split for Pwllheli to run through to Aber as four car trains.

 

[Caaardiff]

The original plan is to move the 175's to another TOC once the 197's arrive, as the Chester depot will be a CAF facility. They could work out of Longsight but the refurbished 175's look so good I wonder if TFW may want to keep them for longer than planned.

There's a lot of logistical problems ahead for TFW as they are getting 77 197's and Chester depot isn't very big & Mach depot isn't that big either. They want 21 ERTMS equipped 197's, so I wonder the remaining 56 units will be stabled ?

There's 51 units between the 158's and 175s alone. Add in the 150's and 153's used on the mainline and you're not going to be far off 70+ units.
Maintenance Depots are different from stabling points. Units will likely still be stabled at the current locations:
Holyhead
Chester station
Crewe
Shrewsbury
Machynlleth
Canton
Carmarthen

Canton will have the ability to store more mainline units once most of the Valleys fleet moves to Taffs Well and Valleys depots.
Not all ERTM's equipped units will be on the Cambrian at the same time, or need to be stored at Machynlleth, 158s are operating all over the network currently.

The 197's will start arriving from Oct/Nov of this year, with the 175 leases due to end on 31st May 2022. That gives about 6 months for the fleet introduction and training to take place until the whole 175 fleet is gone. According to the original Franchise fleet timeline, the 175's were due to start to leave at the end of this year/start of 2022. That seems a stretch given that all kinds of training and familiarisation will need to be done with the 197s, not only train crew but other operational teams. Time is quickly running out, with just over a year until the 175's will all be gone. I can actually see leases being extended, especially if there is any delays to the 197s arriving.

 

[Rhydgaled]

158s are operating all over the network currently.

Yes, but if I recall correctly the magazine article I saw a few years ago listed the vast majority of the ATW 158s being stabled at Machynlleth each night. It surprised me just how many units could be stabled there.

According to the original Franchise fleet timeline, the 175's were due to start to leave at the end of this year/start of 2022. That seems a stretch given that all kinds of training and familiarisation will need to be done with the 197s

Even before COVID that would have sounded like a stretch, since as far as I can recall the first 197 was never supposed to enter passenger service before December 2021 at the earliest.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes, but if I recall correctly the magazine article I saw a few years ago listed the vast majority of the ATW 158s being stabled at Machynlleth each night. It surprised me just how many units could be stabled there.


Even before COVID that would have sounded like a stretch, since as far as I can recall the first 197 was never supposed to enter passenger service before December 2021 at the earliest.

Machynlleth Depot can only stable about 10 or 11 max due to space.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Machynlleth Depot can only stable about 10 or 11 max due to space.

I stand corrected; for some reason I thought it was 18 but I've now dug out the magazine in question and it has 11 max overnight at Machynlleth (which was the case on Tuesday-to-Friday nights). Still quite an impressive tally for a depot that looks to me like it can only hold 4-6 units (two in the shed and another two or possibly four in front of the shed). I suppose they could stable more in the platforms.

 

[Doveymain158]

I stand corrected; for some reason I thought it was 18 but I've now dug out the magazine in question and it has 11 max overnight at Machynlleth (which was the case on Tuesday-to-Friday nights). Still quite an impressive tally for a depot that looks to me like it can only hold 4-6 units (two in the shed and another two or possibly four in front of the shed). I suppose they could stable more in the platforms.

2 in the main shed, 1 in the siding next to new building. 2 in each siding behind the old shed, 2 on the old shed plus you got the siding beneath the footbridge and the wash pad aswell.

 

[craigybagel]

Not with the planned hourly Aber, it would be 20 minutes. Not sure what they'll do with regard to the second (Pwllheli) set though, is there anywhere to take it off and hide it?

Wouldn't the extra Aber trains be shuttles to Shrewsbury? Or will Birmingham to Holyhead be abandoned in favour of hourly through trains to Aber? That would make the diagramming a lot easier. If that is the case, I'd expect Aber trains that don't split for Pwllheli to run through to Aber as four car trains.

This is the big question. TfW haven't announced yet how the hourly Cambrian is going to interact with the existing Birmingham services. If it's rewritten as part of the timetable recast so that the Holyhead and Cambrian sets stay captive, it'll ease a lot of worries about the amount of sets fitted with ERTMS.

There's 51 units between the 158's and 175s alone. Add in the 150's and 153's used on the mainline and you're not going to be far off 70+ units.
Maintenance Depots are different from stabling points. Units will likely still be stabled at the current locations:
Holyhead
Chester station
Crewe
Shrewsbury
Machynlleth
Canton
Carmarthen

You can add Pwlheli to that list. Also there are other little things that will help, like the 230s going to Birkenhead North. That will free up the space currently occupied every night by the 2 150s used on Bidston (one at Chester and one at Crewe).

The 197's will start arriving from Oct/Nov of this year, with the 175 leases due to end on 31st May 2022. That gives about 6 months for the fleet introduction and training to take place until the whole 175 fleet is gone. According to the original Franchise fleet timeline, the 175's were due to start to leave at the end of this year/start of 2022. That seems a stretch given that all kinds of training and familiarisation will need to be done with the 197s, not only train crew but other operational teams. Time is quickly running out, with just over a year until the 175's will all be gone. I can actually see leases being extended, especially if there is any delays to the 197s arriving.

My understanding is the 197s will start arriving a lot sooner than that, albeit for testing. They may well not get handed over to the company for training for a while after that though, and either way it does look like a tight timescale. 175 training is currently an 8 day course for drivers and it's hard to see the 197s being a whole lot less of a conversion.

 

[krus_aragon]

I might be wrong, but I'm sure I recall reading that there is an intention to decouple those so that you're not stuck with 2-car units on the North Wales Coast services. With hourly Aberystwyths planned there isn't the need anyway.

There was an application made in 2019 for extending Birmingham services to Coventry, which would have achieved this. See discussion at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw’s-new-service-from-december-2020.184122/

 

[Rhydgaled]

This is the big question. TfW haven't announced yet how the hourly Cambrian is going to interact with the existing Birmingham services. If it's rewritten as part of the timetable recast so that the Holyhead and Cambrian sets stay captive, it'll ease a lot of worries about the amount of sets fitted with ERTMS.

If Aberystwyth is hourly through to Birmingham then I think the Aberystwyth units can easily be self-contained - what is less clear is how the Pwllheli/Holyhead portion would be handled. Assuming they continue to terminate at Birmingham International and don't get cut back to New Street or extended to Coventry, I think continuing to interwork the coast portion (ie. Pwllheli - Birmingham - Holyhead - Birmingham - Pwllheli) uses the fewest units in total. This gives 4-cars on all services east of Shrewsbury and every other service east of Machynlleth. However, assuming ETCS-fitted units can work in multiple with non-fitted units, they could lengthen trains to 6-car east of Shrewsbury with the ETCS-fitted units doing Pwllheli-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Pwllheli and unfitted units doing Holyhead-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Holyhead. That uses more units in total but I think fewer of them need to be ETCS-fitted that way.

 

[craigybagel]

If Aberystwyth is hourly through to Birmingham then I think the Aberystwyth units can easily be self-contained - what is less clear is how the Pwllheli/Holyhead portion would be handled. Assuming they continue to terminate at Birmingham International and don't get cut back to New Street or extended to Coventry, I think continuing to interwork the coast portion (ie. Pwllheli - Birmingham - Holyhead - Birmingham - Pwllheli) uses the fewest units in total. This gives 4-cars on all services east of Shrewsbury and every other service east of Machynlleth. However, assuming ETCS-fitted units can work in multiple with non-fitted units, they could lengthen trains to 6-car east of Shrewsbury with the ETCS-fitted units doing Pwllheli-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Pwllheli and unfitted units doing Holyhead-Birmingham-Shrewsbury-Birmingham-Holyhead. That uses more units in total but I think fewer of them need to be ETCS-fitted that way.

One other variant on the above could see the Holyhead - Birmingham sets interwork at Shrewsbury with the other services that terminate there.

Given that the current ERTMS fitted 158s can couple to anything with a standard BSI coupler regardless of whether or not ERTMS is fitted, presumably the ERTMS and non ERTMS fitted units will be able to work together. Plus, there won't be the issue any more of what happens when a Machynlleth guard finds a 150 attached to their service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham and they can't work it.

There was an application made in 2019 for extending Birmingham services to Coventry, which would have achieved this. See discussion at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/tfw’s-new-service-from-december-2020.184122/

Indeed, such a pity (but extremely predictable) that it appears that was turned down.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Do we need three threads on the 197s once they've entered passenger traffic?

Can't we move some posts back to the original thread "Traction and Rolling Stock?" and have the rest under "TfW Class 197 Diagrams?" Even if this thread is renamed "TfW Class 197 Diagrams" and moved over to "Allocations, Diagrams and Timetables?"

Whilst we're on the subject of Civities in general, I don't see a thread for WMR 196 diagrams either, only the one about construction updates.

 

[Jez]

It makes sense for them to start on the North Wales coast services if they are to be based in Chester. I expect it wont be too long before they start appearing on Manchester-South Wales services however there will be quite a few depots that need training on them. Given how long it took for just Canton to be trained on the 170s it could take some time.

If the 158s are to leave quite a while after the 175s it makes sense that the Cambrian/Birmingham services will be the last to get the 197s.

It would be great if the 175s could be kept but unless they keep them instead of the 170s i cant see it happening. The 170s being based in Canton is in their favour for them being kept as they are to be used in the South. I dont think any 175s are kept in Canton much other than stabling overnight same as when they go to Carmarthen etc.

 

[Philip]

The only location that can perform heavy maintenance on the 175's is Alstom Chester depot, nowhere else on the TFW network can. Other Alstom depots could be a future alternative, depending if TFW want to keep them a little longer.

There's Longsight the most logical depot if Chester is needed for the CAF 197's heavy maintenance.

The 175's have turned into nice & comfortable units after the TFW refurbs, they have a few good years left in them.
The customers like them aswell as they are great for longer journeys, plus they are the youngest of the existing TFW rolling stock they have.

It's possible that TfW can't afford the leasing costs of both 175s and 197s. Besides there are other TOCs which would benefit well from refurbished 175s joining the fleet - Northern and ScotRail being two of them.

 

[Rhydgaled]

The only location that can perform heavy maintenance on the 175's is Alstom Chester depot, nowhere else on the TFW network can. Other Alstom depots could be a future alternative, depending if TFW want to keep them a little longer.

There's Longsight the most logical depot if Chester is needed for the CAF 197's heavy maintenance.

The 175's have turned into nice & comfortable units after the TFW refurbs, they have a few good years left in them.
The customers like them aswell as they are great for longer journeys, plus they are the youngest of the existing TFW rolling stock they have.

Does TfW have a maintainance contract with Alstom for the 175s or is it the ROSCO (Angel I think) who has agreed a deal with Alstom for maintainance? If it's a TfW contract, it might well expire when the current lease does, meaning maintainance wouldn't have to be done at an Alstom depot. Would probably make most sense to keep maintainance at Chester though; if was going to be expanded to maintain 50-odd 197s (not all at once of course) it should be able to handle a combined fleet of just over 50 class 197s and 175s if the class 197 order was cut to allow the 175s to be retained. As you say, the 175s have great interiors for long distances.

It's possible that TfW can't afford the leasing costs of both 175s and 197s. Besides there are other TOCs which would benefit well from refurbished 175s joining the fleet - Northern and ScotRail being two of them.

ScotRail wouldn't have much use for them; they have a rational decarbonisation policy (read: electrification) and as such the diesel-only 175s would not be too attractive. Northern is a different story, unless there is an outbreak of common sense in the UK Government and a 'Northern Powerup' is instigated Northern will need more DMUs to allow them to get shot of 150s and putting 175s on the Northern Connect routes to release 195s to replace 150/1s would be a start. That or give TPE the 175s to release 185s to Northern. Really though, the solution for Northern needs to be electrification and the solution for Wales needs to be keeping the 175s and having fewer 197s; electrification of Manchester-Leeds (both routes) and Liverpool-Manchester (via Warrington) just seems way more of a priority than anything in Wales apart perhaps from the ValleyLines network (with the addition of Penarth and Barry).

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

One suggestion: Keep some 175's and run some double 197's where possible? Preferably less 2-car sets.

 

[craigybagel]

One suggestion: Keep some 175's and run some double 197's where possible? Preferably less 2-car sets.

That already is the plan, even without keeping the 175s.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

That already is the plan, even without keeping the 175s.

Ok. I wasn't sure if there would be enough 197's to double some. Thank goodness you can walk through the whole train!

 

[Rhydgaled]

Ok. I wasn't sure if there would be enough 197's to double some. Thank goodness you can walk through the whole train!

I think it was confirmed long ago that services between Manchester and Swansea were intended to be doubled up - with one of the sets being a 3-car unit with first class making the train up to five cars. Unless they can obtain a second hourly path between Liverpool and Chester, those services would also be doubled up splitting at Chester with portions for north Wales and Shrewsbury/Cardiff. Similarly the Cambrian/Holyhead-Birmingham services seem almost certain to involve portion working, meaning these services would be double up for part of the route. There wouldn't be enough 197s to double-up everything everywhere though and I still think anything over 30 (a growth build to suplement rather than replace 158s and 175s) class 197s is too many.