Restrictions on 180s and more

[Aictos]

Spoke to a Hull Trains guard this morning while dispatching it and she mentioned that they're not allowed to run with just 2 engines - I don't know if they can run ECS on 2 engines though but anyway is there a similiar restriction in place for GC/Northern 180s, Virgin/XC 220s, 221s etc...

 

[driver9000]

When a 180 engine shuts down the next vehicle cross feeds the electrics for the shut down car. When down to 2 engines the auxiliary supply cannot be maintained as there isn't enough cross feed to go round, and with only two electrically powered compressors the set would also struggle to maintain air. Actually moving a 180 on 2 engines is a painfully slow process too. If a 180 would be down to 2 engines then it would only be run to a location where it could be dumped. Our 180s are taken out of traffic on 3 engines if possible.

 

[WillPS]

Surely it's pretty dire straights when less than half of the engines on board are operational?

 

[Eng274]

TransPennine Express services from Manchester Airport to Scotland run on 2 out of 3 engines as part of their ISO 14001 environmental awareness certification. Each engine is 750hp (similar to 220/221 i think). Each coach weighs in at a hefty ~52 tonnes, but such measures probably suit the long-distance routes compared to the start-stop nature of other TPE routes.

I was on a 185 from Liverpool LS - Manchester Oxford Road once, with 3 engines they really can shift! Only ever been on them with 2 engines down the WCML any other time.

 

[ainsworth74]

similar to 220/221 i think

Nope exactly the same, 220/221/222/185/180 all use the same engine, Cummins something or other, can't remember exactly.

Eco-mode is quite good, when your in a carriage that has the engine turned off the ride given by a 185 is just as good as any other loco-hauled rolling stock.

 

[Eng274]

Nope exactly the same, 220/221/222/185/180 all use the same engine, Cummins something or other, can't remember exactly.

Eco-mode is quite good, when your in a carriage that has the engine turned off the ride given by a 185 is just as good as any other loco-hauled rolling stock.

Cummins QSK-19, 19litre 4-stroke 6cyl horizontal turbocharged diesel i believe. Sounds best with the 3-circuit Voith hydraulic transmission, rather than the rev-the-nuts-off diesel electric system.

A set-up like this could encourage lazy maintenance though, in a 10 years there could be a few units where only 2 engines actually work, since the 3rd isnt 'necessary'.. Hopefully Keolis have a share of the TPE pie big enough to prevent them falling to Firstbus SE Scotland standards of 'maintenance'.
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while were on the subject on 180s, while i was changing trains at Doncaster a few years back, i saw a hull trains operated 180 alighting, and the guard was closing the doors (i think) and nearly locked himself out his own train! he had to wrestle them to stay open while he scrambled on.. did this catch out HT guards frequently?

 

[MCR247]

I was on a 185 from Liverpool LS - Manchester Oxford Road once, with 3 engines they really can shift! Only ever been on them with 2 engines down the WCML any other time.

You may also be suprised to hear that they can be faster, as they have two power notches locked out of use

 

[ainsworth74]

You may also be suprised to hear that they can be faster, as they have two power notches locked out of use

Interesting, I've often thought that they must be overpowered what with having engines designed to power 125mph trains rather than 100mph. Wonder what would have to be done to modify them for faster running? (Not that I'm suggesting it would be worthwhile, just curious.)

 

[Eng274]

Interesting, I've often thought that they must be overpowered what with having engines designed to power 125mph trains rather than 100mph. Wonder what would have to be done to modify them for faster running? (Not that I'm suggesting it would be worthwhile, just curious.)

The 185 weighs around 52t per car, which even compared to lesser DMUs is still rather high horsepower/tonne; although at the end of the day Torque is what really counts! Maybe siemens designed them to be retrofittable for higher speed running. Adjustment/replacement of the transmission and possibly uprated braking system and engine cooling could see the 185 good for 125mph (purely speculation though..)

 

[scotsman]

I prefer the 'rev-the-nuts-off' diesel-electric transmission - corking noise!

 

[Pumbaa]

220s/221s are 2 engines max as well. 185s have to have 2 as well, can limp to next major station if just 1.

 

[Aictos]

220s/221s are 2 engines max as well. 185s have to have 2 as well, can limp to next major station if just 1.

Well I don't know what the driver did but he manage to coax the third engine back into life - far too complicated with all these modern electrics etc...!

That's the good thing about the Multiple Units with more then one engine, if one fails then the remaining engine/engines can be used to move the train clear of the line.

Anyway with no luck on Google, have seating plans for the Hull Trains 180s been released?

 

[ainsworth74]

far too complicated with all these modern electrics etc...!

Indeed, back in the good old days you simply took a large hammer or spanner and hit the damn thing till it started working again!

 

[scotsman]

while were on the subject on 180s, while i was changing trains at Doncaster a few years back, i saw a hull trains operated 180 alighting, and the guard was closing the doors (i think) and nearly locked himself out his own train! he had to wrestle them to stay open while he scrambled on.. did this catch out HT guards frequently?

shouldn't be a huge problem. There's a handle at platform level for opening these doors.

 

[Pumbaa]

Indeed, back in the good old days you simply took a large hammer or spanner and hit the damn thing till it started working again!

Don't joke - last September I saw staff at Lime Street hitting the belly of the Pacer I was sitting on ready to depart with large objects in an attempt to coax the engine back to life.

It worked. After 10 mins of repeated bashing!!

 

[No Fault Found]

shouldn't be a huge problem. There's a handle at platform level for opening these doors.

Only on the A2 and B1 doors
Plus it's not ideal to pull the access handle and put the emergency brake in, then pull the egress handle so the doors don't close while you reset the access handle. Driver's tend to get a little upset.

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

With regards to the 185s and 125mph running, the seating in coach C (ie, not FC/Dis toilet) would need to be removed to allow a space between the front of the train and the punters should the worst happen

 

[YorkshireBear]

With regards to the 185s and 125mph running, the seating in coach C (ie, not FC/Dis toilet) would need to be removed to allow a space between the front of the train and the punters should the worst happen

There has to be a certain distance between front seats and fron of train for high speed? hence the massive gaps at front of pendilino's etc?

 

[323235]

Don't joke - last September I saw staff at Lime Street hitting the belly of the Pacer I was sitting on ready to depart with large objects in an attempt to coax the engine back to life.

It worked. After 10 mins of repeated bashing!!

and they were doing that even after the more recent incident pacer falling to bits whilst in service.

 

[ainsworth74]

There has to be a certain distance between front seats and fron of train for high speed? hence the massive gaps at front of pendilino's etc?

Yep all modern unit stock that travels at 125mph needs space for crumple zones in order to preserve the integrity of the passenger inhabited part of the train in the event of a head on collision.

On locos of course the loco provides the crumple zone.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Yep all modern unit stock that travels at 125mph needs space for crumple zones in order to preserve the integrity of the passenger inhabited part of the train in the event of a head on collision.

On locos of course the loco provides the crumple zone.

Thanks, didn't know that but it makes sense

poor driver though hes not got a chance

 

[Lampshade]

Yes, it used to be that passengers couldn't travel in the leading vehicles of a 125mph train, hence HSTs/91+DVT. Now I believe it's the front third of the leading vehicles, hence the enormous kitchen and luggage area on Pendos.

 

[cyclebytrain]

Yes, it used to be that passengers couldn't travel in the leading vehicles of a 125mph train, hence HSTs/91+DVT. Now I believe it's the front third of the leading vehicles, hence the enormous kitchen and luggage area on Pendos.

Where is that space on a 395? The seats get pretty close to the cab, certainly nothing like the space on a 390 (is it the nose?)

 

[YorkshireBear]

Where is that space on a 395? The seats get pretty close to the cab, certainly nothing like the space on a 390 (is it the nose?)

When you look seats actually start quite far back and the door takes alot fo scape too, it does look like a third just. And being new they may have much better crumple zones.

 

[Pumbaa]

Also seating in the leading vehicles has to be mostly unidirectional, hence virtually no tables in Pendo A+K.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Indeed, back in the good old days you simply took a large hammer or spanner and hit the damn thing till it started working again!

. . . last September I saw staff at Lime Street hitting the belly of the Pacer I was sitting on ready to depart with large objects in an attempt to coax the engine back to life.

It worked. After 10 mins of repeated bashing!!

The leading edge of a steel-toe-capped boot has its uses in the absence of a hammer.

 

[tbtc]

There has to be a certain distance between front seats and fron of train for high speed? hence the massive gaps at front of pendilino's etc?

...hence Voyagers only really having two or three coaches (plus two "half" coaches at either end), which is why a five car voyager seems much bigger than a four car (more than the additional 25% of coaches, I mean)

 

[Aictos]

The leading edge of a steel-toe-capped boot has its uses in the absence of a hammer.

Yes indeed, I remember being taught how to deal with sticky interior doors on the 365s with such boots,